177 réponses à ce sujet

[twopounder]

Most of the problems that stem from NWN 2 have been fixed:



-Bugs that made the OC unplayable (stuck in areas, broken main quest, etc)

-Crashing when using a transition

-Cut scene camera pointed at a bush, or a rock and didn't let you see what was happening

-Toolset randomly corrupted saves and permanently destroyed them

-Players unable to level without crashing the server/module

-Invisibility/stealth didn't work for almost a year.



But there even more problems that were NEVER even addressed:

-animations made by granny that were horrid and caused problems when scripted

-basic animations like sitting were not easy to code, and required a lot of funky walkmesh editing

-three (THREE!) different shadow options that could bring a machine to its knees

-Single threaded...(really? don't the coders at least look at current hardware?)

-Horrid multiplayer support (it's a bit better thanks to bug fixes for the OC)

-Tinting instead of texture recoloring.

-A ton of features are hardcoded and impossible to work with.



There are the ones that come to mind. I expect your experience was better because you started playing after all the patches, and probably don't play online.



What is sad is that other developers will look at NWN 2 and not want to try doing the same thing. Creating an open game with a powerful toolset is something that should be supported, not spurned, but the industry is obsessed with locking people out of the game... to the point that they would rather you didn't play it at all than risk you change/steal something.

[Blue_dodo]

I havent played the second one since I can find a local copy, a refuse to uh...get it in other ways... but i. does look fun, plus I like the idea of having four classes !!



shame it doesnt have the same populerity as the original does

[avado]

Blue_dodo wrote...

I havent played the second one since I can find a local copy, a refuse to uh...get it in other ways... but i. does look fun, plus I like the idea of having four classes !!

shame it doesnt have the same populerity as the original does

It seems today that "other ways" are the only way to play this game!  LOL  jk, but it sure seems like that is the truth!

Oh and 4 classes but 30 levels.  THe nice thing is they made clerics even more uber than in 1!  You only need 1 cleric lvl in 2 (like bard or rog in nwn) to be uber!  

[Blue_dodo]

avado wrote...

Blue_dodo wrote...

I havent played the second one since I can find a local copy, a refuse to uh...get it in other ways... but i. does look fun, plus I like the idea of having four classes !!

shame it doesnt have the same populerity as the original does

It seems today that "other ways" are the only way to play this game!  LOL  jk, but it sure seems like that is the truth!

Oh and 4 classes but 30 levels.  THe nice thing is they made clerics even more uber than in 1!  You only need 1 cleric lvl in 2 (like bard or rog in nwn) to be uber!  

this would be true, I personally however got annoyed with playing  soly a cleric and took a few level as a fighter, kinda makes becoming a blackgaurd so of moot but eh...


speaking of which what is up with the blackguard in NWN 2 a ****ing dire rat for summoning fiend ? what the hell not extra smiting ? erg I hope someone made a mod to make the blackguard as fun as in the original

although it is prc that really makes the class better

[painofdungeoneternal]

lol lot more fun things than blackguard. kaedrin adds spell books and summons, and it's easy to swap out blueprints. Still waiting on purgatorio to finish that vrock model for an improved summon.

[avado]

Oh, now you bring in kaedrin's pac! What about the PRC for nwn? INSANITY!! I made a silly little cleric that got Dev crit at lv 21 (pure divine cleric focus build - he was a half orc too!). AT 40 he had EMA (+20 ARMOR ac! not 5/5/5/5), Warding, Storm Mantle (he had access to enough spellcraft to get them all, but i didnt bother), he was lv 40 caster. He had Living undead (lv 2 spell, NEVER got dispelled and had 80 HOURS or something totally ridiculous).



PRC also allowed you to make a Dragon Shape character (druid or otherwise) WITH Dev crit! So, not only did you get the dragon goodies, you got that too. AND, if you got it through druid, well ALL your shapes (that had creature weapon), also had it too! I LOVED one shotting people with my Badger dev crit!



Its funny, that in nwn2, kaedrin's is almost a standard, while in nwn, most players never get around to it (i know its as buggy as hell, and bioware really locked them out of some pretty silly things, but who cares).



My point: compare vanilla to vanilla (even though this is now 7 pages). Start bringing in addon mods and it would be ridiculous.

[painofdungeoneternal]

The quality level of the content makers for NWN2 is pretty high, i know quite a bit about the NWN1 prc ( since i am working thru converting it very slowly to NWN2 ) and you cannot compare the two, especially if you want optimized scripts for a PW. While kaedrin has done a lot he's just doing a few classes which the engine lets him do instead of trying to do every possible thing in D&D, and each one he does well. Since the devs answered some of his requests for features his results are comparable to the in game classes. Really the devs were a bit foolish to release so few classes instead of just hiring him to add on 10-15 classes to SOZ, the numbers of bugs would have been a lot less.

Now if it's about powerbuilds and what can be broken with the rules, on both you need to omit some of the pun pun stuff. The vanilla stuff has Bigby spells, IGMS, and quite a few other things, all of which make clerics unstoppable just like in vanilla D&D. If you look at the PW's they all edit the spells, the rules and make house rules to make the monster builds not happen. A heavily customized world like mine ensures that a cleric is not over powering.

Vanilla to Vanilla, that means all the things peachykeen, virusman, skywing, kaedrin, tonyk, project Q, grinning fool, binary, did just don't matter. Well if that is the case NWN1 would be dead, there would be no real PWs, since no PW admins, and NWN2 would never have been started, nor half the features in NWN2 or NWN1 would even exist. What the devs gave us was a starting point, we as a community are what made NWN1 and NWN2 what they are.

My point, ignore the community at your peril. I think this NWN1 vs NWN2 is just plain stupid, it's not a real choice, if it was i'd not own both of them. The only reason why this game ( and i mean both NWN1 and NWN2 ) is still going strong despite the release of dragon age is the fact the community is still adding feature after feature to it. And if you don't use the vault, if you just think the dev's can deliver quality, you are just missing out.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 14 novembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Shallina]

You are missing big thing with some of the content made by the community.

There are some poeple around NWN2 that deliver stuff just as good or in a better shape than Bioware or Obsidian. And Kaedrin is one of them . And unlike what you say about NWN, there is nothing silly in Kaedrin content, he actually even corrected some of the official content.

Modifié par Shallina, 14 novembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Blue_dodo]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

lol lot more fun things than blackguard. kaedrin adds spell books and summons, and it's easy to swap out blueprints. Still waiting on purgatorio to finish that vrock model for an improved summon.

 I know and I have been trying diffent builds out, like disciple of dispator or being a lich etc

its just that is my primary build for my charecter in SOU my change things up  before going into HotU, kudos of a charecter builder.

[The Fred]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...
Now if it's about powerbuilds and what can be broken with the rules...

Since anyone can mod the game to add pretty much anything, a discussion about which game offers the most powerful powerbuild is a bit silly since I can just crack open either of them and give myself basically whatever I want. If it's about which offers the most powerful "legal" powerbuild, you can't really define "legal" except as "PnP-complicit", in which case the game is irrelevant since we're all using the PnP D&D rules. Either way, it seems a fruitless discussion since a game is not better if it offers more powerful powerbuilds - in fact I'd say it's probably worse since it's probably less well balanced.

As pain says, you can't just ignore the community. If you want to compare the games, then comparing what others have done with the games admittedly might seem unfair since it relies on the skills of the modders, not on the quality of games, so compare instead the potential for improvement that both games offer - and both games offer a lot. Personally, I think NWN2 offers a lot more moddability than NWN (there are still a lot of pointlessly hardcoded things, but many of the things which were hardcoded in 1 are no longer in 2 - plus there's a plethora of things like GUI modding etc which are truly awesome) but both offer a lot more than most other games I've ever seen.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Why compare the two at all, why create this false competition. What i do in NWN2 generally should be usable to a degree in NWN1 and vice versa. The people who do succeed in making things of importance in the community generally are very nice and helpful and tend have a strong distaste for this partisanship.



If we only could buy one then yeah, but we can get both ( well we can get NWN1 easy now, NWN2 is a bit more effort due to a lawsuit and it not being on gog.com or other online places now ). Now if you have a project and want to know which engine would do it better, that is entirely technical and based on the details, and your own preferences, just like if you decide to use a particular language or another to write a program, but if you are a player, buy them both and keep your feet dipped into each community.

[Shallina]

You can always buy NWN2 on Amazon for exemple, so it is still possible to get it.

[Vaalyah]

I would like to thank you all for your answers but it seems to me we are a bit forgetting the real intent of this thread that I've opened.

I was asking to everyone why, in their opinion, is better between NWN1 and NWN2 for what the game itself offers. The game, the OC, if you want to call it in that way. When I buy the game, I am not spending my money on the community. If tomorrow all the modders vanished, the game will still be what I'd paid for. I was asking about a comparison of the story, the gameplay, the settings... if not, we can easily say: "NWN1 has more mods, because it has been played for a longer time" and end of discussion. So, please, explain to me why one of the two is more appealing to you based on what the game is, not the add on by the community.

Thank you. :-)

[Hellfire_RWS]

The community is my reason, so you can't just push it aside. I purchased NWN2 because of the community that I knew would spring up and I was getting tired of the NWN scene and wanted something a bit new.

[The Fred]

Indeed, the community is the more important part of the game, imo... however, comparing OC with OC in terms of storyline etc is not dissimilar to comparing NWN1 with HotU or SoZ with MotB etc and is a completely different discussion. If that's what you meant when you asked your question then fine, that's just as valid a question to ask (and for what it's worth I think I liked SoU best), though I would say that when I bought NWN2, I *did* buy it for the community (or at least the toolset) at least as much as for the OC.

[Vaalyah]

I simply think that the vast majority of the players isn't so involved in the community, moreover, of course being NWN1 around for a longer time, it's obvious that the CCs and the modules and modders and tweak etc etc etc available are many more. So from this perspective, the "NWN or NWN2, which one is better?" question is completely obvious!

[Banshe]

Vaalyah wrote...

I simply think that the vast majority of the players isn't so involved in the community, moreover, of course being NWN1 around for a longer time, it's obvious that the CCs and the modules and modders and tweak etc etc etc available are many more. So from this perspective, the "NWN or NWN2, which one is better?" question is completely obvious!

I think it is important to realize that the NWN games are unlike most other games out there. The vanilla game in both cases is irrelevant. What is relevant is the creation power placed in the hands of the gamer. Most people outside the NWN communities don't get that and it is their loss.

Put another way, these are not games, these are toolsets with live on-the fly editing (i.e. a DM). And that is the basic part. The advanced part is a deep level of customization.

So it doesn't make your question an obvious one. Because you cannot ignore the very reason for the existence of these games.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

For me the focus on a single player plus optional henchmen approach used in NWN was horrible. This was gut-wrenching to someone who had always enjoyed creating a balanced party.



Also though the forced party companions and jump-back-to-life death system of NWN2 is equally horrible.



Unmodified both games are horrible as far as I am concerned. I did play through NWN twice though, so I would say that I adapted to the single-player super-man model more easily then the forced-people-into-my-party-whom-I-despised model of NWN2.



So for me, they are both horrible, but NWN2 is more horrible.



Properly modded (meaning with my mods of course ) NWN2 is more enjoyable for me. I like the NWN2 UI better and the ramps in NWN just bug me.



Regards

[painofdungeoneternal]

This is like asking which is better the initial (4th really) star wars or phantom menace.

I would suggest getting all of them and playing them thru from beginning to end. Each offers something different, all have good stories. Chronological is good.

If you only want to play one story and buy one game, the NWN2 OC is far better than the NWN1 OC which was bleh. HOTU and MOTB are both very good, but then the expansions tended to improve. SOZ is more akin to baldurs gate in being open ended and really supporting a full party. Depends on what you like really and each new one really listened to the complaints of the last one, some just hated MOTB's curse, others loved it. Each also has some very good adventure packs too, MOW is just as good as the expansions. All learned from the previous one, and despite complaints, all are a good fun romp thru faerun. The worst thing about both NWN1 and NWN2 is they don't keep making expansions for both, and they don't keep making adventure packs for both, but at least the community is more than capable of doing that for us. Which one is better is entirely personal, much like which do you like better, apples or banannas, it's pretty personal.

If you don't use community content, well again you really are missing out. There are a lot of other games which are as good, but with NWN, the main thing that sets it apart is the fact it's designed for real community development instead of the community hacking it apart after the fact. The tools are not an afterthought but were initially planned soas to allow us to do entirely new stories and not just minor mods to the original story.

Since NWN1 diamond is only 10 bucks on gog.com, and i imagine you can get NWN2 with all expansions for under 50 if you play your cards right ( and if you wait it likely will be 10 bucks for everything as well ), i just don't see it being a real choice you have to make. Either choice leaves you, the player, losing out on a lot of good fun. Getting both, and making sure you get that community content makes it so you get probably the most game hours for your dollar compared to almost any other game.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 17 novembre 2010 - 09:31 .

[Quixal]

The NWN community is what makes these games. Both of them. Though I am currently spending my time on NWN2, NWN is still on my harddrive when more recent games, including DA:O have come off. Looking only at the vanilla games when trying to choose is missing the point entirely. Besides, as has been said, there is no reason to choose.

[BigfootNZ]

Hellfire_RWS wrote...

The community is my reason, so you can't just push it aside. I purchased NWN2 because of the community that I knew would spring up and I was getting tired of the NWN scene and wanted something a bit new.

This with Tomatoe sauce...

I bought NWN1 a couple of months after it released, played up to the point you meet first Arabeth  then quit and went right into what i actually got the game for... the toolset and modding. Almost 10 years latter i still havent completed the OC, and the only expansion I have finnished was HotU and thats because it had alot of planar material in it and was pretty damn good.

I held of NWN2 for ages simply because I was an Idiot (although lack of a machine to run it was another factor) and because modeling for it was a complete joke (i still think they tried to deliberatly kill of the modeling community part of the franchise thanks to granny since with NWN1 the community work was often far better than their own inhouse... cant make money if people prefer the community material over your own).

Still havent finnished any of the NWN2 OC or expanions... Soz is great, MotB is good... OC was a complete bore. Personally I dont buy games for the game, only the toolset and modding potential ... I did the same with Unreal Tournament 3 and its UDK, havent gotten around to actually using it though, really need to.

Which is better... Both

[Vaalyah]

@pain: but of course, Star Wars :-D (the REAL ONE) is Star Wars... the other "thing" you wrote it is not even a movie ' (yes, I'm a purist!)

I am using community contents... very few for now, but I am learning the toolset, so I am expanding my knowledge. All this discussion was born because I read in an Italian forum people commenting on these 2 games (OC, about the story, the gameplay, etc) and I was curious to know what people think about, why they prefer one aspect of the 1 or another aspect of the 2. If the answer is "the best thing is the community", well, it's a 0-0 score, because both games have a community. Of if you focus on mods and CCs, NWN1 is better for having had a community for a longer time. So the sense of my thread was "can you help me in understanding other people's point of view about these 2 games intended as the games on their own?". Just this.



By the way, I have both the games already (with almost all expansions) so, it's not a question on "help me in deciding how to spend my money", it is, really, just curiosity. :-)

[dunniteowl]

I honestly think any long term Forum Poster (read: Committed Community Member who should be Committed) will agree that this game is almost as much about the Community and the modifications that Community does as it is the games initially. I have been a member of a lot of gaming forums over the years and have moderated two different forums back in the AOL days when Mechwarrior 2 was out and I was playing NeverWinter Nights on AOL.

Dedicated Community is an important aspect for enjoying a game by adding to the fact that you can discuss these very questions and more. You got players who really get into builds and others who really just only want to play a certain type of character or a specific playstyle. Then you got folks who just love to see what they can make the scripts do, and others who focus on building areas, and still yet others who model. And those are only the highlight bullet points of the Community.

Then you have this mixture of folks who make modules and some do very well and others get better as they go along. Some folks seem to have a knack for it and others just sit in awe of the content that comes out over a period of time. And don't forget the Persistent Worlds, which were an unheard of concept before NWN and you can see how important the Community that builds up around the game can be.

I personally thought NWNs campaign was okay, if a bit forced and hokey at times. The One Person Party with a henchman concept really bothered me. I did play the OC and SoU and mostly got through HotU (I just couldn't keep slogging through Cania and I got bored.)

NWN2? The OC is okay, the characters are bit more engaging and the action is a bit better. I love the areas, but that doesn't make the story. MotB? Didn't even play it. SoZ? Played it about 4-6 hours so I could see how the party system worked so I could Alpha Test Misery Stone (which rocked, by the way.)

I bought these games because they both looked a damnsight better than Unlimited Adventures: Adventures in the Forgotten Realms that I had which also came with a toolset (in 1991 I think it was.) I don't know if I could separate the Community from the game with any of those mentioned.

I think the overall gameplay mechanics in NWN2 are better, but I agree with Kaldor that I hated being forced to have specific party members whether I wanted them or not.

I quit playing the OC just after Old Owl Well, because I just couldn't stick with this long story that seemed to lose its focus over and again during sidequests. And it wasn't really the fault of the OC as much as it was the same overall formula that I have seen in cRPG over and again set in Faerun since the end of the AD&D Gold Box Engine.

Same reason I quit reading Stephen King, Tom Clancy and Dan Brown. They write good stories, but they are formulaic and I'd like to see them stretch their imaginations while they attempt to stretch mine.

I think both are great games. I like them both. I bought them both to use the toolset. I stick with them and around here for the Community. So I don't think either one of them is really better. Variety is good.

dunniteowl

[painofdungeoneternal]

Vaalyah wrote...
By the way, I have both the games already (with almost all expansions) so, it's not a question on "help me in deciding how to spend my money", it is, really, just curiosity. :-)

It's just divisive is all.

If i go NWN2 is better, i am saying NWN1 is worse. How can i say that, without NWN1 there would be no NWN2, and it was game of the year.

There are far too many retarded folks who spend too much effort explaining how a game they don't play is terrible. Why do i say retarded, because they don't know and they don't want intelligent comparisons. If someone says NWN1 is terrible i know for a fact they are either biased due to promoting a NWN2 PW or module, or got a screw loose. The opposite is very true as well, those who just plain get obnoxious about how bad NWN2 is you can look at some NWN1 PW  or other project they have.

I think you've played both, and i think you enjoy both.

Now if you ask something about party play, which one has better henchman and controls. I can say i like NWN2 better. Which one has more content would be nwn1, which one has more developer quality content which is better than the actual game then it's NWN2. Then someone calls it all eye candy which is a way of admittig it's actually very good looking but still bashing it since they don't want anything better. And it turns into a argument over which is better oranges or apples, with so many features to be compared, and frankly the most ardent detractors have very little real experience with the game they are bashing.

They both are amazing games, worthy of respect. 1-1
They both have 3 main campaigns, the 1st of each sucks, the 2nd or 3rd is best of each ( depending on who you ask ) 1-1
They both have a strong community. 1-1
And they both have very loud people who think the other game sucks and think they are right and those that disagree with them are irrational. 

Kaldor's example is the best really, the NWN2 OC is not very good, but with his customization it's the best. It is so often the details that make a game great. Which is the key thing. Remove the community and you not only remove the content, you remove many of the features in the vanilla game. Sure you can say there is more content, but in NWN2 there is some pretty key content that solves major issues, and the developers supported us a lot better so the way we did it can be more professional and not just a hack after the fact. And remember the developers used community content in the official games patches and expansions, and members of this same community. To fairly disregard the community you would have to also remove big chunks of official content as well. I don't see this in other games.

Which is what makes this game cool, if you don't like something you can find someone who has fixed it, or you can fix it yourself. I liked hearing how fireballs can catch grease type spells on fire in dragonage, so i went ahead and have that in my game--now on my pw if you do a fire focused mage you see everything on fire around you. Hate the UI in NWN2, how can you when i can change it to look like NWN1 or baldurs gate. Don't like counterspell bugs in NWN1, NWN2 did not even have it, i was able to implement PNP counterspelling in a week due to that UI. Which i know was a major request back in NWN1 days.

Note i tend to prefer NWN2, i just happen go be on the NWN2 forum, and do NWN2 things now, i hope you understand this is not an slight that there are bugs in counterspell or the UI, it's just i know why i personally  like NWN2 better and know it better. NWN1 probably has someone working on the same issues, or some workaround. I can say i love NWN1 just as much as any NWN1 guy, i just have moved on to NWN2 to play with the new toys. I think the entire discussion ends up focusing on why each game is bad, and not why each game is good, and makes it seem like there are far more problems than there really are in each game. So go get both, play both, and when the community fixes an issue or releases something cool in one or the other, give it a try.

Frankly i'd like to hear more about contructive things, like comments about a PW people liked, or what was done well in a particular module, or things which add to the game. Even the negative things should not be bashing, but things which help us content makers improve the content we create.

The biggest danger with negative comments about either game is that people only see the bad and not the good, they see complaining about this or that in NWN1 in this thread, then see complaining about NWN2 in NWN1 forums, and the result is not them choosing one over the other, the result is them playing some other console game which has far more bugs and flaws, and a lot less to offer than either NWN1 or NWN2. And people doing this actually hurts both NWN1 and NWN2.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Shallina]

NWN is better than NWN2 for "fast modding". And it has a little more of custom content (like horse)

NWN is better than NWN2 for "novice", it's easier to script, mod and so on with it.

NWN2 is better for everything else, and for poeple with a little knowledge with computer, almost everything you can do with NWN you can do it with NWN2, and you can do even more. IT's really a more powerfull tool, but power has always a price, the learning curve is bigger and can really push poeple away from it.

NWN2 is an evolution from NWN1, without NWN1 there wouldn't be NWN2. Now wich one is better ?
It all depend on your taste and what you want to do.

But for myself I really think NWN2 improved greatly things from NWN1 to a point I can't go back to NWN1, wich I liked a lot .

For the death system SOZ gave the possibility for NWN2 to have a real "death system" that isn't an horor like those we got since the first BIOWARE 3D game. And that alone make NWN2 really worth it.

NWN1 got 40 lvl, NWN2 got 30 lvl. For me it's completly irrelevent, instead of scaling your max lvl on 40 you scale it on 30. But for some poeple it's a really big deal, that can also be a reason for you to choose one over the other.

Modifié par Shallina, 18 novembre 2010 - 12:33 .