1380 réponses à ce sujet

[Ponce de Leon]

ashwind wrote...

 http://www.megavideo.com/?v=S4O6B93Y

Acrobatic Warrior Ninja Locksmith (aka Bioware Rogues) takes Warrior (Real Warriors) face on.... 

I wont feel very warriorish if I cant DW and cant do this too 

That's how Shield Bash should have been made. 

[Akka le Vil]

Pzykozis wrote...

But you're ignoring that your own definition of what rogues are in the DA world is wrong. Rogues have been described as dexterity fighters (not as thiefs or ninjas) and dual wielding requires more dexterity than it does pure strength, which what warriors are, strength based fighters.

Martial arts in the general sense apply to both the rogue and the warrior, the rogue isn't some random street thug who only uses a knife every now and then, they're trained fighters that use speed / agility and dexterity, sure ninja's could be a subset using more cunning and tricks, likewise a street tough / heavy could be a subset of warrior that relies less on martial skill and just on strength. That doesn't mean however that ninjas and toughs are what encompass the entirety of those two classes.

If what you say is true, then the Bioware decision makes even LESS sense. They go on and on about classes distinction, and then you tell me "but they design rogues not to be actual rogues, but to be dex-based warriors !" ?
So they gut warriors in the name of making each class very different (and chose the WORST way to do it...), and in the end it's to make "warrior 1" and "warrior 2" ? Doesn't compute, sorry.

If they want to make real distinction, then warriors should be people who focus on ALL THE KIND of martial prowess ("light" warrior, "heavy" warrior, tank, etc.), and rogues should be the ones who focus on winning  a fight through deceit, underhand tactics and the like.

The more people try to justify Bioware choices, the more it shows how these choices are just contradictory, confused and illogical.

[ashwind]

Tirigon wrote...

ashwind wrote...

Tirigon wrote...
Sorry, but you´re wrong. I played Dualwieldwarrior, and directly afterwards AND directly before I played Arcane Warrior - once with focus on DPS and once with focus on tanking. My Dualwield-warrior however out-dpsed AND out-tanked both of my Arcane Warriors by far.

In fact, his DPS on Level 10 was as high as my AW´s on level 20.

Out DPS - yes.

Out tank? I think soloing the Nightmare mode Flemeth/High Dragon without potions using a DW warrior would be very fun to see.

I admit I can´t do this.

But then, my Arcane Warrior dies with a single grab on Nightmare, so it doesn´t matter, because he can´t solo them either.

My AW dont die in a single grab in nightmare 60% of my health maybe - cant remember. AW with 65-69 Armor + Shimmering Shield can solo them in nightmare without pots - lots of running around to regen but doable. 

Come to think of it... those hit and run makes my AW more roguish than rogues 

[ashwind]

dark-lauron wrote...

ashwind wrote...

 http://www.megavideo.com/?v=S4O6B93Y

Acrobatic Warrior Ninja Locksmith (aka Bioware Rogues) takes Warrior (Real Warriors) face on.... 

I wont feel very warriorish if I cant DW and cant do this too 

That's how Shield Bash should have been made. 

Absolutely, and it is Bioware who said: "Fight like a Spartan" no?

So let us squash all those acrobatic flies like a true spartans.

SPARTA!!!

[wwwwowwww]

Akka le Vil wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Dual wielding makes perfect sense for a rogue. In fact if you think
about it keeping extra weapons hidden on them to pull out unsuspectingly
when someone is focused on the right hand they strike swiftly and
precisely with the left (very cunning tactic).

Except that is not really DW, it's more of a "stealth attack" or "dirty trick". It's not a "combat mode", it's a "special ability", which is covered by, well, ability.
Using two weapons to fight is not "using one weapon to fight and then surprising your opponent by punctunring him with a hidden weapon".
Using two weapons to fight is martial, not roguish, which is the point that is proven - and ignored by biased people - again and again and again...

This is a foolish design decision, if they have to make the rogue class
more distinct they should focus on adding and improving the skills
unique to the class instead of cutting the combat potential of another
class in half.

This is so true and so simple, that it seems half of the people are simply unable to get it...
And the sad point is, the DESIGNERS are among this half...

Way to cut off what I said to make it suit your argument.

The fact is it makes a lot of sense for Rogues to use two weapons, I've explained why about 5x on this thread if you want to continue to argue for the sake of arguing then go ahead, but keep in mind I've never said that it doesn't make sense for warriors other than those wearing anythign heavier than light armor and I've explained why.

[wowpwnslol]

ashwind wrote...


Out tank? I think soloing the Nightmare mode Flemeth/High Dragon without potions using a DW warrior would be very fun to see.

Stop lying. There is no way to solo the dragons as melee without potions because grab/overwhelm style attacks ignore defense. Flemeth/HD will take away ~60-70% HP on nightmare and they do it once every 20-30 seconds.

[Homebound]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

 A warrior in plate mail being fast with two daggers I could handle, but flipping and rolling into attacks? That didn't make sense.

OMG!! You heard it here first folks! You get to do flips and rolling attacks as a Rogue in DA2!!

[jsachun]

Major difference is in how they regenerate stamina with each kill. DW warrior can spam lot more active talents than rogues can due to Death Blow filling up stamina with each kill. Very dissapointing after showing the major evil qunari as a DW warrior in the trailer. You don't expect me to believe he was a little backstabing rogue do you?

Oh well, there is always DW barbarian class in Diablo 3 to come. I'll have to get my DW warrior satisfaction out of that game. 

Modifié par jsachun, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[erikvduyn]

I don't care about dual-wielding whatsoever since Dual Striking is STILL completely broken!

[ashwind]

wowpwnslol wrote...

ashwind wrote...


Out tank? I think soloing the Nightmare mode Flemeth/High Dragon without potions using a DW warrior would be very fun to see.

Stop lying. There is no way to solo the dragons as melee without potions because grab/overwhelm style attacks ignore defense. Flemeth/HD will take away ~60-70% HP on nightmare and they do it once every 20-30 seconds.

Me personally, am not using melee because I cannot time their attacks to perfection (who said AW is limited to melee always...) And who said anything about standing still and let the dragon grab you... :pinched:

AW is about ARMOR not defense.

If you need proof, here is one - www.youtube.com/watch .

Edit: :devil: Just loaded my lv25 AW and go solo against Nightmare High Dragon pure melee this round - after 30 min (I sux) I beat it without pot.

I used terrain to my advantage, trap dragon in the structure, hit once and run to give my AW breathing space - which is what Rogues should be but ah well... I guess anyone holding 2 sword nowadays are automatically rogue.

Modifié par ashwind, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:12 .

[Akka le Vil]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Way to cut off what I said to make it suit your argument.

The fact is it makes a lot of sense for Rogues to use two weapons, I've explained why about 5x on this thread if you want to continue to argue for the sake of arguing then go ahead, but keep in mind I've never said that it doesn't make sense for warriors other than those wearing anythign heavier than light armor and I've explained why.

And I've never said that rogues should NOT be able to DW (in fact, I said the opposite, just that they should be restricted to daggers if they really want to make a distinction), I've simply said that DW is MORE warrior than rogue, and as such making it EXCLUSIVE to rogues is stupid and counter-productive.
I support DW for BOTH classes, I just say that warrior are even more entitled to it than rogue, as DW is front-line fighting, and frontline fighting is what DEFINES a warrior.

Don't patronize me about cutting what you say when you do the same, please...

[wwwwowwww]

Akka le Vil wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Way to cut off what I said to make it suit your argument.

The fact is it makes a lot of sense for Rogues to use two weapons, I've explained why about 5x on this thread if you want to continue to argue for the sake of arguing then go ahead, but keep in mind I've never said that it doesn't make sense for warriors other than those wearing anythign heavier than light armor and I've explained why.

And I've never said that rogues should NOT be able to DW (in fact, I said the opposite, just that they should be restricted to daggers if they really want to make a distinction), I've simply said that DW is MORE warrior than rogue, and as such making it EXCLUSIVE to rogues is stupid and counter-productive.
I support DW for BOTH classes, I just say that warrior are even more entitled to it than rogue, as DW is front-line fighting, and frontline fighting is what DEFINES a warrior.

Don't patronize me about cutting what you say when you do the same, please...

I didn't cut your quote off, as you did mine, scroll back that's the full quote.

Now that's settled, let's get back to the matter at hand shall we.

DW is no more warrior than it is Rogue. Pulling out a 2nd weapon to surprise your enemy catching them off guard is a cunning and deceptive tactic used by rogues. I could give reasons why one could consider DW more for rogues, and this move by bioware does make sense, but why bother? your not going to listen to them.

[jsachun]

You woudn't call a Samurai a rogue. They did exactly what you just said about using a second weapon. Even Ninja's were considered as a warrior and not a rogue. What makes you think warriors don't use bows & arrows and throwing objects. It's all about kill or be killed in the battlefield & not about what weapon you are restricted to that makes you a warrior or a rogue.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[wowpwnslol]

ashwind wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

ashwind wrote...


Out tank? I think soloing the Nightmare mode Flemeth/High Dragon without potions using a DW warrior would be very fun to see.

Stop lying. There is no way to solo the dragons as melee without potions because grab/overwhelm style attacks ignore defense. Flemeth/HD will take away ~60-70% HP on nightmare and they do it once every 20-30 seconds.

Me personally, am not using melee because I cannot time their attacks to perfection (who said AW is limited to melee always...) And who said anything about standing still and let the dragon grab you... :pinched:

AW is about ARMOR not defense.

If you need proof, here is one - www.youtube.com/watch

Sorry, completely misread what was written before - I assumed you claimed to have soloed the dragons with a plain warrior without potions, when you said that the fight would be fun to see.

Impressive stuff with the AW, btw - how are you not running out of mana though? Regen gear?

[wwwwowwww]

jsachun wrote...

You woudn't call a Samurai a rogue. They did exactly what you just said about using a second weapon. Even Ninja's were considered as a warrior and not a rogue. What makes you think warriors don't use bows & arrows and throwing objects. It's all about kill or be killed in the battlefield & not about what weapon you are restricted to thay makes you a warrior or a rogue.

Ninja's fall more into the Rogue category than they do Warrior. Ninja's were not battlefield people. They infiltrated, assassinated, and performed espienoge(spelling).

And again I never said it didn't make sense for warriors to us DW, just heavily armored ones.

[ashwind]

wowpwnslol wrote...

ashwind wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

ashwind wrote...


Out tank? I think soloing the Nightmare mode Flemeth/High Dragon without potions using a DW warrior would be very fun to see.

Stop lying. There is no way to solo the dragons as melee without potions because grab/overwhelm style attacks ignore defense. Flemeth/HD will take away ~60-70% HP on nightmare and they do it once every 20-30 seconds.

Me personally, am not using melee because I cannot time their attacks to perfection (who said AW is limited to melee always...) And who said anything about standing still and let the dragon grab you... :pinched:

AW is about ARMOR not defense.

If you need proof, here is one - www.youtube.com/watch

Sorry, completely misread what was written before - I assumed you claimed to have soloed the dragons with a plain warrior without potions, when you said that the fight would be fun to see.

Impressive stuff with the AW, btw - how are you not running out of mana though? Regen gear?

Yes, Regen gear. The poster used I think Fade Wall + Duncan's sword (4 regen). I used Meric's Arm set for +5 regen.

I honestly cannot do it as gracefully as the poster... it takes me 30 min because I cannot time the dragon's attack well, so always running to regen. Luckily the AW has full resistance and max armor kept me alive through all my mistakes. 

[Aradace]

SDNcN wrote...

First bad new I've heard about DA:2. Sebastian Hanlon just confirmed on the live-chat that dual-wielding will be restricted to rogues (I think he said Archery is as well). Goodbye armored eviscerators.

I actually LIKE the idea that rogues are the only ones getting to DW now.  In DnD Rogues and Rangers were USUALLY the ONLY ones you saw DW'ing.  I always found it kind of silly that someone in Massive armor was able to run around with two blades just cutting a swathe through everything (Hence why none of my Heavy Armor wearing characters never did it.). 

Also, a little history of DW'ing is that even when two weapons were used, it was more often than not, if anything, a shortsword or longsword in one hand, and a parrying dagger of some sort (usually a main gauche) and it was used primarily for that purpose, to deflect incoming blows and counter attack.  Even the dual wielding "samurai" (also known as Mayojin Soga Style if memory servers I could be wrong on the name.) they used a Katana and wakazashi because using two full sized weapons was just way too awkward and clumsy.

[jsachun]

So what makes you think you'll do it better in light armor or as a rogue? It's a shield or an off hand weapon of choice. It's definetly more of a combat trade rather than an assasinating one.

Modifié par jsachun, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Akka le Vil]

wwwwowwww wrote...

I didn't cut your quote off, as you did mine, scroll back that's the full quote.

I cut the part I was answering to, that's all.

DW is no more warrior than it is Rogue. Pulling out a 2nd weapon to surprise your enemy catching them off guard is a cunning and deceptive tactic used by rogues.

Let me repeat myself, as you seem to have completely ignored what I wrote before about this exact specific case :

"Except that is not really DW, it's more of a "stealth attack" or "dirty
trick". It's not a "combat mode", it's a "special ability", which is
covered by, well, ability.
Using two weapons to fight is not "using
one weapon to fight and then surprising your opponent by punctunring him
with a hidden weapon"."

Let me repeat it again : fighting with one weapon and then getting a hidden weapon to surprise your opponent IS NOT DUAL-WIELDING ! It seems pretty obvious to me that fighting with ONE weapons and then making a dirty trick with another that you suddendly draw from its hidden location is not "wielding two weapons and fighting with both at the same time"...

I could give reasons why one could consider DW more for rogues, and this move by bioware does make sense, but why bother? your not going to listen to them.

You should be wary of throwing stones in a glass house, because for now the reason you gave was completely off-mark (comparing using ONE weapons and making a surprise attack with a hidden one that wasn't wielded) to actually wielding two weapons at the same time), and you are the one that didn't listen at all to something you were told (as I already gave the exact same counter-argument and you entirely skipped it).

Don't give lessons that you're the first they should apply...

[Aradace]

jsachun wrote...

So what makes you think you'll do it better in light armor or as a rogue?

Have you ever actually WORN plate armor? Seriously? (and yes, I have...Replica of course but still.) For you to even ASK that question is kind of silly.  Leather Armor is SOOOO much easier to move in and your arms have a wider range of movement.  With plate, your arms dont have the same full range of motion as they would wearing leather or chain it's pretty much that simple.

[Akka le Vil]

Aradace wrote...

I actually LIKE the idea that rogues are the only ones getting to DW now.  In DnD Rogues and Rangers were USUALLY the ONLY ones you saw DW'ing.

Actually you're completely wrong, fighter were better at DW than rogues. Ranger, who were a "fighter-like" class, NOT a rogue class for starter, just got the ability for free, but the fighter could reach the same level by taking proficiencies, and rogue actually couldn't specialize and be as competent as fighters in DW.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:25 .

[Pzykozis]

Aradace wrote...
 Even the dual wielding "samurai" (also known as Mayojin Soga Style if memory servers I could be wrong on the name.) they used a Katana and wakazashi because using two full sized weapons was just way too awkward and clumsy.

There is Ni Ten Ichi Ryu which was Musashi's style and I think he used two katana in the end. But that's the only dual full size weapon style I know of.

[Aradace]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I actually LIKE the idea that rogues are the only ones getting to DW now.  In DnD Rogues and Rangers were USUALLY the ONLY ones you saw DW'ing.

Actually you're completely wrong, fighter were better at DW than rogues. Ranger just got the ability for free, that's all, and rogue actually couldn't specialize and be as competent as fighters in DW.

Actually, Im only half wrong really...If a fighter wears lighter armor then sure (and yes, the DMs I gamed with were that hardcore to implement armor penalties to DW if you wore anything above chain which is realistic.)

[jsachun]

Aradace wrote...

jsachun wrote...

So what makes you think you'll do it better in light armor or as a rogue?

Have you ever actually WORN plate armor? Seriously? (and yes, I have...Replica of course but still.) For you to even ASK that question is kind of silly.  Leather Armor is SOOOO much easier to move in and your arms have a wider range of movement.  With plate, your arms dont have the same full range of motion as they would wearing leather or chain it's pretty much that simple.

Well in reality foot soldier's never wore massive armor so the point you make defeats the purpose all together. Aren't we all some sort of super human in this game? How does reality come into it. Ofcourse I know massive armor is restricted to knights on horse back, does that mean you should not wear massive armor at all in DA?

Modifié par jsachun, 06 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Aradace]

Pzykozis wrote...

Aradace wrote...
 Even the dual wielding "samurai" (also known as Mayojin Soga Style if memory servers I could be wrong on the name.) they used a Katana and wakazashi because using two full sized weapons was just way too awkward and clumsy.

There is Ni Ten Ichi Ryu which was Musashi's style and I think he used two katana in the end. But that's the only dual full size weapon style I know of.

Yea, see I was wrong on the name.  And to be more specific I dont believe they were quite two full sized Katanas.  I seem to remember they were similar in size but one was definately shorter than the other.  The styles adopted later mostly used Katana/Wakazashi.