139 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

The Hardest Thing In The World wrote...

Sorry. I don't quite get you. There won't be DW warriors hence this thread about rogues in heavy armor. Bioware wants them classes to be more distinct.

Yeah, I was confused due to how the past few posts had been people going "WTF NO DUALWIELD?"

Sorry.

[Mox Ruuga]

What I fear is more "streamlining", Mass Effect 2 style.

The devs of that benighted sequel went for "immediatly recognizable" and "iconic" individual styles, comicbook aesthetics in other words. This meant no customized armor for the squaddies, and no armor "weight classes" for Shepard.

Someone already suggested that maybe we'll be getting sets of "warrior" and "rogue" armor in DA2, instead of the "light", "medium", "heavy", and "massive" sets... Which would suck.

[Akka le Vil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

But Mages have spells giving them a "mage" experience and Warriors have two-handed weapons completely tailored for a "warrior" experience, why leave dual wielding a hyprid-mess that doesn't fit well for both classes?

Er...
Because it MAKES SENSE ?
If anything, rogues are LESS entitled to dual-wield (which is a mastery of arms feat, and not a thievery skill at all). Dual-wielding is a purely swordmanship ability, coming from expertise in weapon and sparring. It just drips of warrior spirit. If they wanted to make them distinct, then rogues should have been more "ambush-oriented", with abilities to strike bypassing armour and the like, not excluding the class that is most typical of a style from this style...

[Shepard Lives]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

What I fear is more "streamlining", Mass Effect 2 style.

The devs of that benighted sequel went for "immediatly recognizable" and "iconic" individual styles, comicbook aesthetics in other words. This meant no customized armor for the squaddies, and no armor "weight classes" for Shepard.

Someone already suggested that maybe we'll be getting sets of "warrior" and "rogue" armor in DA2, instead of the "light", "medium", "heavy", and "massive" sets... Which would suck.

Eh, I'm quite certain we won't get that. They did say there would still be inventory, and I don't think they're going to screw with the system that much. Maybe some of the people who already played the game can tell us how the armor is classified?

[Dave of Canada]

Akka le Vil wrote...


If anything, rogues are LESS entitled to dual-wield (which is a mastery of arms feat, and not a thievery skill at all).

Dual-wield has always been the rogue's forte in fantasy, this isn't some giant sudden change that shakes the very foundations of classes. What else would you give rogues? Would you give them two-handed weapons? Would you limit them to only archery or do you want that on your warrior too?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:35 .

[Dave of Canada]

shepard_lives wrote...

Eh, I'm quite certain we won't get that. They did say there would still be inventory, and I don't think they're going to screw with the system that much. Maybe some of the people who already played the game can tell us how the armor is classified?

I doubt people checked for that in the fifteen minute demo, they'd be trying to embrace the awesome too much.

Possibly locked most of the menu as well because it might incomplete.

[Sabariel]

Obviously I'm a bad gamer. I don't particularly care what a Rogue is or should be. I enjoy being a ninja wearing huge chunky armor. It's fun

[SoR82]

my rogues tended to lean towards heavy chain style armours because the light armours were so fudging ugly and boring and monotonus. Even the battle dress of the provacateur was so sodding lazy.If your trapping us to lighter amrours you better make more effort this time rather than changing the colour

[Loc'n'lol]

So long as they can wear medium armor without pumping so much strength that they may as well go all the way up to massive, I'd be fine with it.

[Zhijn]

If they make armor per class only then i hope come up with some better leather/cloth designs from what we saw in DAO. And i agree with SoR82, they are just fudge ugly (yay for mods tho!).

Altho i dont see this as much of a a problem if we get a toolset (we do get a toolset right?). Because im sure modders will get on that right away & strip the "class only" label. Modders always know our best interest!. =P

[Kreid]

That's good IMO awesome new animations, class specific abilities and (possibly) class specific armor are way better than being able to use heavy armor on anyone -PERIOD-

[ashwind]

So... if Bioware does not want Rogues to wear heavy and massive armor - all they have to do is to make ultra ugly heavy and massive armor (when a rogue wears it) problem solved.

[biomag]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Akka le Vil wrote...


If anything, rogues are LESS entitled to dual-wield (which is a mastery of arms feat, and not a thievery skill at all).

Dual-wield has always been the rogue's forte in fantasy, this isn't some giant sudden change that shakes the very foundations of classes. What else would you give rogues? Would you give them two-handed weapons? Would you limit them to only archery or do you want that on your warrior too?

Cliches are the death of imagination.

Basically the whole classes thing is a relict of the RPG beginnings. Hard restrictions make it even worse. Even D&D realized that it is stupid to limit weapons to certain classes... and if even they - masters of antiquated systems - show insight, then its a huge step back if others implement them into new games. Similar to us starting to live on trees again.

[SnakeHelah]

Guys, a Rogue is a Rogue, it's not a warrior with that can wield dual weapons. A rogue usually wears light armor, and uses agility and nimbleness rather than brute strength, a rogue exploits ones vital areas and strikes there, so to speak. Heavy armor is just bad for rogues, sure it protects you a great deal, but rogues tend to dodge more, etc. A rogue has always had light armor and that didn't change last time I checked, you have free will do to what you want with your character, though.

[Skyplant]

I always use light armour on my player character rogue, but that rogue you find in awakenings, the dwarf, cant remember her name, has to wear heavy armour or she fails

[Akka le Vil]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dual-wield has always been the rogue's forte in fantasy,

Uh, no. The idea of rogues dual-wielding comes from ADD, and still even there it was the RANGER who was the specialist of dual-wield, and the fighter could specialize just as much. Both were SUPERIOR to the rogue in dual-wielding.

this isn't some giant sudden change that shakes the very foundations of classes. What else would you give rogues? Would you give them two-handed weapons? Would you limit them to only archery or do you want that on your warrior too?

I would give them "roguish" talents, based on ambushes, backstabs, crippling strikes and bypassing armor.
Going toe-to-toe with weapons in each hand scream "warrior". If they are going for stereotypes, then rogue is more about deceit and dirty fighting than going head-on with lots of weaponry.

Modifié par Akka le Vil, 05 septembre 2010 - 11:54 .

[biomag]

Its not about restrictions when you want to solve such things. Restrictions are for those too lazy to make the real work.



Want rogues to use light armor? Then think why people used it. Not how its portraixted in fantasy. Give rogues skills that are based on agility and not making too much noise. Make them independent from high strength attributes. Make heavy armors slow and loud so that sneaking has a higher chance of failing and at the same time consume stamina at a high rate (how about constant stamina drain in combat for all classes, except for warriors who get the skill that prevents that?!)... and you know what? Assassins won't use heavy armors any more. Don't give a backstabbing bonus on a massive armor (greetings to all warden commanders), as it doesn't help too.



Its not that hard Bioware. Just start thinking again. Reality is a great adviser for how to handle even fantasy combat.

[wicked_being]

Well wouldn't it be weird if your rogue, heavy armor and all, would be doing dashes and flips?

[biomag]

wicked_being wrote...

Well wouldn't it be weird if your rogue, heavy armor and all, would be doing dashes and flips?

Give penalties for wearing heavier armor and they won't. Don't restrict it. As I said, if even D&D stopped being that stupid and unrealistic, why do newier games take that path.

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

biomag wrote...

wicked_being wrote...

Well wouldn't it be weird if your rogue, heavy armor and all, would be doing dashes and flips?

Give penalties for wearing heavier armor and they won't. Don't restrict it. As I said, if even D&D stopped being that stupid and unrealistic, why do newier games take that path.

My Cleric can't use blades. Good times.

[Ayanko]

In DA:O I Has my rouge wear Massive Armour and use great sword, Why? Every time he critically hit with that thing the sound effects were amazing "BOOM, BOOM" Besides he still kicked ass, and was still faster than a warrior.

[Kilshrek]

In DAO, rogues could wear heavy/massive armour, but incur the penalties to stamina. Just to allow them to equip those sets of armour would mean you had to pump stat points into str at the cost of the other 'rogue' stats.



I myself never tried a heavy armour rogue but I saw no point to it, the stamina penalties were massive, my rogue was never meant to be a tank and thereby never had massive constitution. DW abilities cost a fair bit of stamina, so unless you were very content with unleashing most abilities just once in a fight there really was no point to having 'heavy' rogues.



Going back to the OP's point, the design of DAO made it less advantageous, but still possible to have 'heavy' rogues, but I think DA 2 will have 'class' armours now, not unlike the mage-specific robes in DAO. I don't think the weight class of armours will be removed entirely, since they're meant to give and take, ie more damage reduction/dodge at the cost of mobility/stamina regeneration etc.



But, if like in ME 2, armour becomes a mere accessory, then I don't know. Though I remember in a thread somewhere long ago Mike Laidlaw said there'd be an inventory. I don't remember if anyone pressed on the 'inventory like ME 2' angle though. It's been a mixed bag so far anyway.

[biomag]

Kilshrek wrote...

In DAO, rogues could wear heavy/massive armour, but incur the penalties to stamina. Just to allow them to equip those sets of armour would mean you had to pump stat points into str at the cost of the other 'rogue' stats.

I myself never tried a heavy armour rogue but I saw no point to it, the stamina penalties were massive, my rogue was never meant to be a tank and thereby never had massive constitution. DW abilities cost a fair bit of stamina, so unless you were very content with unleashing most abilities just once in a fight there really was no point to having 'heavy' rogues.

...and that's the way they should go. It makes sense. Its realistic. And it still makes a difference when you look at different classes.


... on the other hand clerics that refuse to use (can't take it into their hand) blade and rather get eaten alive are fun too. So yes, please more antiquated D&D stupidity! Yeahy!

[raven_corrino]

My mage(s) wear Dragonbone plate armour all the time.

Modifié par raven_corrino, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Kilshrek]

biomag wrote...

...and that's the way they should go. It makes sense. Its realistic. And it still makes a difference when you look at different classes.


... on the other hand clerics that refuse to use (can't take it into their hand) blade and rather get eaten alive are fun too. So yes, please more antiquated D&D stupidity! Yeahy!

I can understand enforcing restrictions within 'lore'. Enforcing restrictions for art's sake however is another matter, and while they have their reasons for doing it, it is a bitter pill for some to swallow. My warriors (all 2 of them) were S&S or 2H, though starting out the 2H had some DW skills, just to look sexy, and a decent 2H weapon was hard to come by anyway.

I think with the flipping and whatnot by the rogues, heavy/massive armour is pretty much out the window anyway, since it was a decision for art's sake. DW rogues are the quick sneaky fellows, slapping chunky armour on them defeats that purpose instantly.

Besides, if the DAO inventory is maintained (which I will say here needed a bit of fixing, but not wholesale removal. But that shouldn't be a concern right now) rogues will be disinclined to equip heavy armour again, simply because it is impractical. Having a strong rogue is pointless since the core rogue skills (like lock-pick etc) depend on another stat.