139 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

SnakeHelah wrote...

Stereotype is one thing, but when you say that rogues can wear heavy armor it's just wrong.

Sigrun in the Awakening wears heavy armour with appearance of massive armour. Maybe because it'd be pretty stupid for scout of Legion of the Dead to try and go into Deep Roads filled with darkspawn in just some light leathers, especially for a dwarf?

But sure, perhaps BioWare was just wrong putting her in that...

[SnakeHelah]

tmp7704 wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

Stereotype is one thing, but when you say that rogues can wear heavy armor it's just wrong.

Sigrun in the Awakening wears heavy armour with appearance of massive armour. Maybe because it'd be pretty stupid for scout of Legion of the Dead to try and go into Deep Roads filled with darkspawn in just some light leathers, especially for a dwarf?

But sure, perhaps BioWare was just wrong putting her in that...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

[Dynamomark]

Sigrun is wearing intermediate armor when you meet her.

[tmp7704]

SnakeHelah wrote...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

It still isn't light armour and Sigrun is still a rogue. Or isn't she in your eyes, because she wears something heavier?

Dynamomark wrote...

Sigrun is wearing intermediate armor when you meet her.

With appearance of massive armour, not medium. Unless you peek into stats on character sheet, going by the looks she's wearing plate (or dwarf equivalent)

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .

[saint charles]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I
think Rogues SHOULD be excluded from Heavy Plate armor. Heavy Plate
armor is the antithesis of what it is to be a rogue. Rogues have
agility, stealth, and lethal fast strikes, but they're fragile, to
balance out their high DPS

Excvept that's not necessarily the case.  it's just an arbitrary restriction.

A strength-build
rogue would totally wear heavy armour if had the option.  Why not get
more protection?  And a strength-build perfectly suits a thug or
enforcer, which is a character concept that fits neatly within a
Thieves' Guild.  A rogue focussed on doing damage above all else
probabaly should be a strength-build.

So I'm asking.  Given the
reasoning behind the no-DW-for-Warriors decision, letting Rogues wear
haevy armour undercuts their position pretty badly.  But it's also
another restriction.

So I'm asking which it is.  Are they taking
away even more options than they're telling us about, or are they
inconsistent?

case in point i use my rogue as my tank in DAO, and pretty much everything else in this genre of games why? options, you always have to have options.

SnakeHelah wrote...

Guys, this is getting silly, First, Ninjas and Rogues are kinda different, (referring to the pics above) and rogues sure ain't as hell walking with 2h axes and all. I mean, it is how you understand the definition "rogue" but you shouldn't portrait them as dwarfs with two handed axes, cause that's just stupid. As I said before, Rogues use agility rather than brute strength, they are fast and swift, so they can dodge most attacks, unlike warriors who wear heavy armor, and withstand attacks with high constitution.
Stereotype is one thing, but when you say that rogues can wear heavy armor it's just wrong.
Put some heavy armor on a rogue and he loses that title. How do you sneak in plate armor? How do you run, dodge in plate armor? A rogue is supposed to be sneaky, silent, nimble, precise, he does not rely on strength, he exploits weaknesses and so on, why do you have to hit someone with a sword with strength, when you can strike a vital organ with a dagger? it just goes on and on. So do not misplace what is a rogue, that very title has a certain definition.

Definitions of 'rogue'





(rōg)
















Dictionary.com · The American Heritage® Dictionary - (11 definitions)

















[Origin unknown.](noun)

• An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
• One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
• A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
• A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
• An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.

classic characters that fall into this category would be Capt. Mal Reynolds, and Conan...
as for "rogues sure as hell aint walking with 2h axes and all" i refer you to Conan who was a thief as well as a barbarian. but i digress...

[SnakeHelah]

tmp7704 wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

It still isn't light armour and Sigrun is still a rogue. Or isn't she in your eyes, because she wears something heavier?

In my eyes, it's how you portait a rogue, he can be an archer, fight with dual swords, fight with 1 dagger or from a distance attack with a bow, then switch to a dagger, etc. But do not go away the fact that he uses agility not brute force and strength, sure one can be strong and agile at the same time, but it is really difficult to run around, dodge attack swiftly with massive armor. Sigrun can be an exception Legion of Dead after all.

[2papercuts]

SnakeHelah wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

It still isn't light armour and Sigrun is still a rogue. Or isn't she in your eyes, because she wears something heavier?

In my eyes, it's how you portait a rogue, he can be an archer, fight with dual swords, fight with 1 dagger or from a distance attack with a bow, then switch to a dagger, etc. But do not go away the fact that he uses agility not brute force and strength, sure one can be strong and agile at the same time, but it is really difficult to run around, dodge attack swiftly with massive armor. Sigrun can be an exception Legion of Dead after all.

so you have to be  Legion of Dead to wear massive armor and be a rogue? does being in the Legion of Dead suddenly let you do this?

[Ayanko]

2papercuts wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

It still isn't light armour and Sigrun is still a rogue. Or isn't she in your eyes, because she wears something heavier?

In my eyes, it's how you portait a rogue, he can be an archer, fight with dual swords, fight with 1 dagger or from a distance attack with a bow, then switch to a dagger, etc. But do not go away the fact that he uses agility not brute force and strength, sure one can be strong and agile at the same time, but it is really difficult to run around, dodge attack swiftly with massive armor. Sigrun can be an exception Legion of Dead after all.

so you have to be  Legion of Dead to wear massive armor and be a rogue? does being in the Legion of Dead suddenly let you do this?

YES, because you need the legionnaire Scout Skills. Either way its all about your stats, sigrun was all dex and str, meaning she was able to wear the massive armour. Hell my warden in DA:O was a rouge and was wearing Calins armour, only gave 11% fatigue.

[SnakeHelah]

You don't have to be Legion of the Dead to wear heavy armor as a rogue, it's just a matter of choice, I chose to wear light armor and dual weapons in DAO for example. You can wear Heavy armor, but the fact remains, Heavy armor = Heavy and requires lots of fatigue to run, attack etc.

Protection = heavy armor, light armor = more agility, more rogue abilities.

[tmp7704]

SnakeHelah wrote...

In my eyes, it's how you portait a rogue, he can be an archer, fight with dual swords, fight with 1 dagger or from a distance attack with a bow, then switch to a dagger, etc. But do not go away the fact that he uses agility not brute force and strength, sure one can be strong and agile at the same time, but it is really difficult to run around, dodge attack swiftly with massive armor. Sigrun can be an exception Legion of Dead after all.

But a rogue can just as well be a guy who gets into thick of it and pounds skulls with a mace from either behind or front if the action calls for it. Being agile (and thus maybe more inclined to wear light armour) is one option for rogue, but the archetype is really mostly about willing to fight dirty and without rules, focusing on getting the job done, as opposed to warriors who are expected more to be into thrill of combat in general and honourable combat in particular.

To wear heavy armour because it gives extra edge when the enemy expects you to stick to light stuff would be very rogue-like thing to do actually since it's breaking these 'unwritten rules' and expectations, just like bringing a gun to knife fight.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[2papercuts]

Ayanko wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

Legion of The Dead is a different thing, They have specific armor.

It still isn't light armour and Sigrun is still a rogue. Or isn't she in your eyes, because she wears something heavier?

In my eyes, it's how you portait a rogue, he can be an archer, fight with dual swords, fight with 1 dagger or from a distance attack with a bow, then switch to a dagger, etc. But do not go away the fact that he uses agility not brute force and strength, sure one can be strong and agile at the same time, but it is really difficult to run around, dodge attack swiftly with massive armor. Sigrun can be an exception Legion of Dead after all.

so you have to be  Legion of Dead to wear massive armor and be a rogue? does being in the Legion of Dead suddenly let you do this?

YES, because you need the legionnaire Scout Skills. Either way its all about your stats, sigrun was all dex and str, meaning she was able to wear the massive armour. Hell my warden in DA:O was a rouge and was wearing Calins armour, only gave 11% fatigue.

no i know that my rogue can wear massive armour but SnakeHelah says that rogues cant wear massive armour but  Sigrun can be an exception because shes isn Legion of Dead. i dont see why the most important person in DA if they aren't a class suddenly cant carry two swords or wear massive armour. i don't know why the most important person in DA cant be both strong and agile

[Dynamomark]

Since we're talking aboug Sigrun and her armor:

[tmp7704]

Dynamomark wrote...

Since we're talking aboug Sigrun and her armor:

Oghren approves, +5

[Dynamomark]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dynamomark wrote...

Since we're talking aboug Sigrun and her armor:

Oghren approves, +5

Naturally

[Punahedan]

Hmm. I've heard people distinguish Warrior and Rogue by how formal their combat training is, by the idea that noble or soldier would be better off as a warrior because they have trained in specific combat forms.

However, I would say that a formal duelist still counts as a rogue, in my mind. It's not about what they do, but how they do it. They would be support troops in an army, they could be pickpockets, they could be assassins, they can be street brawlers. The thing is that they would use speed and flexibility, not strength and meat-shield levels of blow absorption. A warrior can still be a street thug because he uses his strength to fight.

So... I think rogues should have the option to wear heavy armor. But that it should have a penalty to stealth and/or DEX because the class is just not meant for that purpose. Not to me, anyway.

I always specced my Warriors for two-hand or sword-and-shield anyway... so... I believe the phrase is, "I ain't bovvered".

[Quercus]

SnakeHelah wrote...

Guys, this is getting silly, First, Ninjas and Rogues are kinda different, (referring to the pics above) and rogues sure ain't as hell walking with 2h axes and all. I mean, it is how you understand the definition "rogue" but you shouldn't portrait them as dwarfs with two handed axes, cause that's just stupid. As I said before, Rogues use agility rather than brute strength, they are fast and swift, so they can dodge most attacks, unlike warriors who wear heavy armor, and withstand attacks with high constitution.
Stereotype is one thing, but when you say that rogues can wear heavy armor it's just wrong.
Put some heavy armor on a rogue and he loses that title. How do you sneak in plate armor? How do you run, dodge in plate armor? A rogue is supposed to be sneaky, silent, nimble, precise, he does not rely on strength, he exploits weaknesses and so on, why do you have to hit someone with a sword with strength, when you can strike a vital organ with a dagger? it just goes on and on. So do not misplace what is a rogue, that very title has a certain definition.

First, this guy isn't a dwarf.
Second, rogues don't need to be agile, thiefs and ninjas do.
Thirth, rogues are very good in using brute strenght; first they kick some dirt in your eyes (which is very rogueish), and after that they will chop your head off with their brute strenght and 2-handed axe.
Fourth, rogues can wear heavy armour just as well as any strong guy, and because of the "second" they can fight quite well in it.
Fifth, rogues are not supose to be sneaky, silent, nimble, precise because that would make him a thief or a ninja. They are supose to be cunning, dirty, sexy and have a strong sensce of winning no matter what.
Sixth, why need a dagger when you could as well just smash your enemies head in with a big mace? sounds easier, just the thing for a rogue.

[Sylvius the Mad]

filaminstrel wrote...

Why is it inconsistent if they want to make the classes more distinct talent-wise, but keep being able to equip armor a matter of stat requirements?

That wouldn't be inconsistent at all.

The justification Mike gave for removing DQ talents from Warriors was that the new DW talents look really silly on a character wearing heavy armour.

If that's the case, that they removed the DW talents from Warriors to prevent this apparently silly juxtaposition, then they would need also then to remove heavy armour from Rogues - otherwise they've failed to reach their goal.

edit: And if how you really feel is that they shouldn't have taken those talents from warriors because it is arbitrary, wouldn't you also argue that it's arbitrary that rogues can't access S&S and 2H talents? Who says a person can't fight underhandedly with those weapon styles? For that matter, who says mages can't learn how to do any weapon talents? Those seem to be arbitrary restrictions as well.

Not at all.  Those have plausible in-game explanations.  But why a Warrior - a class specifically designed to be martial and nothing else - can't learn weapon talents.  I don't see any explanation for that that fails to be arbitrary.

[Sylvius the Mad]

filaminstrel wrote...

Perhaps a warrior realizes fighting with two weapons is a stupid way to engage in a stand-up fight, realistically speaking, and it takes a person who fights more unconventionally to think it's actually a good idea. You may say that's a crappy excuse, but I could say the excuses for mages arbitrarily not being able to learn how to hit someone with a shield are pretty crappy too.

In the Mage Tower in DAO there was a handy codex entry that explained exactly why Mages don't learn weapon skills.

[Sylvius the Mad]

filaminstrel wrote...

Because you can't learn anything after you leave the Mage Tower?

The immutability of talents trees overall suggests that there was some base knowledge that each class possessed that made learning those talents possible.

Otherwise, why couldn't a Warrior learn Dirty Fighting?

There must have been some reason why those talent trees were fixed by class.

[Sneelonz]

I say that rogues SHOULD be able to wear any armor. It's the skills and specializations that differentiate the classes, not what they wear.

[tmp7704]

jonv1234 wrote...

interesting posit. However, in the lore of this game, the rogue is sopposed to be sneaky (note the Stealth skill), as well as be able to steal proficiently, (hence the stealing skill). I do not recall seeing thieves or ninjas in DAO or DAOA.

I think the author meant it rather, it's not mandatory for rogues to be sneaky nor to be thieves. Given these skills are optional and even some of companions don't come with both of them trained. Much like it's not mandatory for the warrior to be able to use both shield+sword and 2-hander, despite having ability to train these skills.