69 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

Vote here!
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Vancian magic is the system of spellcasting used by D&D Wizards, Clerics and Druids. Some people think it is ridiculous; others that it gives welcome structure after the plethora of mana-based spellcasting systems employed by various other games.

Rather than simply asking everyone what they think, however, I figured I'd attempt to raise the tone of the NWN2 fora so we can look even further down our collective noses at those members of the DA community who hog the projects boards with dubious articles holding themselves hostage to poularity votes by posting it with a debate-style title.
(note though that I say this slightly in jest - I have no wish to start a feud with the DA community )

Modifié par The Fred, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[kamalpoe]

Vancian magic is a way to set your system apart from just about every other game out there. For wizards Vancian magic also speaks to the typical portrayal of wizards as researchers, where the spellbook forms their own private internet for research. Need to know something? Look it up.

[Thorsson64]

As Jack Vance is one of my literary heroes I would like to take exception to this thread, and kill it dead. Bang!

[The Fred]

I actually quite like it, but it *is* a bit ridiculous, flavour-wise. I mean, the whole level thing is probably the wierdest bit.

[dunniteowl]

Vancian Magic is okay as far as it goes. As a mechanic, I don't think it works very well. The real issue isn't so much that Vancian Magic 'sets itself apart' from all the other mana based systems out there, it's that so many people have absolutely no comprehension of how the system even actually works. In many cases, this includes those arbiters known as the current IP Holders.

Why? Because, Vancian Magic, as a system, is counter to all that we are exposed to in terms of how magic is 'supposed' to work in all the other literature (includiing mythological and historical references,) and thus percolating into all our other forms of media.

So, if it were to make any real sense to all, it must be explained, to a better degree (and it's origins referenced) in the D&D manuals. Sadly, this is not the case.

I, too, am a fan of Jack Vance's writings. I never, though, came across the particular book that his magic system's framework was pulled from by Gary and Dave for D&D. And, years since I have been told where it came from, I still haven't been fortunate enough to then come across that specific book title to give it a read.

I'm sure I would enjoy it.

It doesn't change the fact that I think Vancian Magic is whacked as a system to use. I have hated the whole Memorize, Use, then DOH! I can't cast that spell again mechanic. It just doesn't bear out logically, in my mind, as a framework that would allow for such powerful magics. And the levelling thing? Well, that's more the mechanics of D&D, I am sure, than it is specifically of the original framework. Then again, not having had direct access to Jack's story from whence comes the system, I cannot accurately say.

I see magical energy as more akin to 'all those mana systems' out there that are similar to each other. I think the most important part of the 'failings' of those other mana systems is two-fold: First, and possibly most importantly, D&D is the prime RPG from which all others were derived -- in terms of it being the First RPG, and thus from it, all others are derived, conceptually. Second, game mechanics are hard enough to do for 'real world' physics and actions, so adding in magic, without taking a goodly amount of time to examine how your desired "Magical Framework" is supposed to function tends to make something that is easily exploited and spammy; in the sense that it makes even lower level magic casters waaaaay too powerful for their overall level of experience.

D&D's magic system is, IMO, deeply flawed in some basic ways. These flaws have been there from the day magic was introduced as a mechanic in the game. And, like Ptolemaic Cosmology, instead of being ripped out, restudied and re-examined for those flaws, the following upgrades, updates and revisions have done nothing more than add further complex reasonings to 'explain' and support the flaws' observed discrepancies, rather than allow some young Copernicus' logical system to take it's place.

All that said, though, it does work in it's fashion. And, as I have played D&D since 1978 (though it really didn't take until 1981 -- long story) and have been designing my own gameworld since about that time as well, you could say I have some definite memory and familiarity with the overall use of Vancian Magic. I play it, I use it, and it can be fun as part and parcel of what D&D is.

Were I to make my own Rules Set, though, I would not use Vancian Casting -- at all. Not even a little bit. I would not use it to sink a boat, to polymorph a goat, to break into a house, or change into a mouse. I can not, will not use Vancian Magic, Sam I am, I can not, will not have it, even to avoid the spam.

And, in the words of Forrest, Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

dunniteowl

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

First of all, I have to admit that I never bother actually using any spells because the whole use-once-then-rest thing never makes tactical sense to me.



But, I can see how the Vancian mechanic could be used to create interesting gameplay. I imagine it originally grew out of card-based games, where you have a big collection of cards (your spellbook), but whenever you play you have to limit yourself to a single deck (your memorized spells). Gameplay is then card-by-card, until every one runs out of cards (usually all at the same time). It can make for a good strategic game, because you have to think carefully about each card/spell you use and when you use it. It can also make for a decent long-term arc for a RPG, as you go about collecting more cards/learning new spells (e.g. the Pokeman franchise, which has survived far longer than it had any right to).



The problem is in execution, the ridiculously long dungeons, arbitrary nature of resting (squatting for 30 seconds), and the automatic learning of new spells at level-up. Someone could, in theory, design a module solely around a particular spell-casting class, structured around short bouts or small quests that didn't allow for intermittent resting, and generally rewarded the PC with a new spell or two to learn.



That kind of game would be hard, though, because selecting the wrong spells or using them up too quickly could result in a hard fail, leaving the player SOL halfway through a dungeon. With a melee weapon, a mana-based system, or infinite squat-rests, the player can always just keep pounding away till they reach the end. Of course, a party-based game should mitigate some of that. But still, a spellcaster should play very differently than a melee-class, and we won't see that difference until spellcasters are given there own quests and peculiar gameplay.

[steelfire_dragon]

hares vancian maigc.





hates the sorcerer too

[kamalpoe]

Lugaid of the Red Stripes wrote...
The problem is in execution, the ridiculously long dungeons, arbitrary nature of resting (squatting for 30 seconds), and the automatic learning of new spells at level-up.

Tthree things here. I'll start with the second one you mention: resting. This is exactly where Vancian casting should allow to memorization of spells, as you refer to your spellbook to check which way you should be flailing your arms while casting. Flail the right way and Fireball, flail the wrong way and Turn yourself into a newt.

Automatic spells on level up. This assumes you've been doing research and otherwise exploring magic. Something you should naturally be doing as a wizard since your life depends on it. Of course this research happens offscreen, no one is going to buy NWN: Wizard Goes to the Library. Maybe we should just prevent levelling up in the dungeons, and restrict it to certain areas.

Now to circle back to your first thing, the long dungeons. This is actually a balance issue. Most computer games balance "low", meaning any given non boss monster is going to be dead in a whack or two. Boss monsters may need a few more whacks to kill but probably not too many. The game makes up for this by throwing lots of monsters at you. Lots of monsters means a big dungeon. A very few computer games balance high, see Shadow of the Colossus for the ultimate example of balance high, where there are no non boss creatures. Every single enemy encounter is a significant threat.

Ridiculously long dungeons full of monsters are a computer game excuse for balance low. Why balance low? Probably two reasons. One is ai generally sucks, so making a balance high creature is difficult, especially when the game system is very deep like DnD. The ai can't match the players subtlety in spell/ability use. The second is probably psychological and thus markting driven for sales, with players getting a stready dose of the good stuff in their brains.

Balance high is generally what you see in literature though. Wading through hordes of enemies tends to be either glossed over or eliminated in favor of ramping up the drama of the big confrontations. After all the talk about Mordor in Lord of the Rings, there's only two fights of note the Fellowship has there, some orcs and the Balrog.

[kamalpoe]

Sieben Elfriend wrote...

Does anyone know why it's called Vancian Magic? Does it in fact derive from Jack Vance, and if so can anyone supply a reference?

Jack Vance's Dying Earth world is the basis. It had a lot of influence on Gary Gygax, many DnD spells and items come directly from the series, such as Prismatic Spray and ioun stones. It's not coincidence that Vance is an anagram for Vecna.

[The Fred]

Sieben, the wikipedia entry I linked to in my first post has two references for the bit about Vancian magic (scroll down to where it says memorization), though I haven't read them.

EDIT: Kamalpoe beat me to it.

Lugaid's points are good, but I should mention that AFAIK, most PnP D&D games have wandering monsters or similar, and in BG, at least, you *didn't* learn new spells on leveling up, you had to scribe them from scrolls. So the design of the system probably worked better in its original setting.

Modifié par The Fred, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[nicethugbert]

The main difference between the Vancian system and non-Vancian systems is time. The Vancian system is not suitable for faster paced stories. But, there are many interesting story elements that are not suitable for faster paced stories. So, it all comes down to using the system that fits your story.

The OC is not a story where one wages a much more realistic campaign against opponents in pre-modern terms. One does not dismantle their opponent through a series of raids and campaigns. The Old Owl Well Orcs fall in one gulp. It's one long series of Blitzkriegs ala Pixie Dust coated Startrek.

So, the rules have to be modified to fit that story. But, D&D has rules to fit those stories too: Spell Points, Innvocations, Psionics, etc. Also, one can modify D&D all one wants in the comfort of their home.

The story you want to tell dictates the rules you want to use.

The Maimed God's Saga is an example of a great story where the Vancian system works.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:52 .

[dunniteowl]

I think another critical component of the concept is sort of missing here in this as well:

Vancian magic and casting is centered on Strict Turn-Based Play. It doesn't really translate into Realtime With Pause (RTwP) play, as the entire use of the areas of effect and such depend entirely on where the creatures are when the spell fires and not where they are when you cast. With intiative deciding not only who goes when, but how long it is before the caster actually fires off the spell, makes a critical and not only tactical, but strategic difference in game play mechanics.

Also, Lugaid, for the record, The Dying Earth and D&D et al, were out many, many years before there were any sort of CCGs out there (Collectible Card Games) a la Magic the Gathering or Pokemon or any other games like those. Though the translation would work pretty well, I'd bet.

When you get right down to it, Vancian Casting is a pretty good mesh for Turn Based Play and if you're making an RPG that started off as a medieval wargame (Melee and Chainmail) and sort of gravitates towards a more Squad Leader based level of play (Squad Leader is a wargame based on the tactical Squad (two to four in a platoon, in general) and plays at what they call the Tactical level of wargaming, as opposed to other larger wargames, such as Anzio (which is a Theater or Operational level wargame based on the Brigade/Division/Army level of Stra-tactical play)) where your character can make all the difference in a larger scale issue.

Now your little team, in the midst of a larger scale battle (like the Battle at the end of the Lord of the Rings: Return of the King) is the critical component in determining whether you win or lose in the final moments of the battle. In this case, Vancian Casting and memorization allows you to emplace a useable, scaled, magical system that translates extremely well to a tactical situation such as a small encounter a la D&D.

That doesn't mean that I like it, per se, but that it does work for what it was intended to originally do. In a cRPG with RTwP, Vancian Casting and Magic is more an impediment to tactics unless you strictly pause and control all the actions of your characters. Kamalpoe's comments on AI are extremely pointed in this regard.

dunniteowl

[painofdungeoneternal]

The nice thing about vancian magic is well, it's not a D&D feature, it is a feature of some D&D classes. Mana, Psi Points, Timer'd feats, even rituals all can be used with it. The warlock is quite a bit like what you see in other games.



Everyone is treating this like an either or type of deal, when D&D has done a lot of work to allow multiple systems work together. It is not a unified system other games, and even 4th edition have moved to, the rules are described on a class by class basis which allow completely different systems to coexist. Really vancian slots are mainly used by the wizard, and a variation by druids, clerics, rangers and paladins. Sorceror, Bards, Favored Souls, and Spirit Shamans use a hybrid slot system. And Warlocks do it completley different.



But then to keep the same level of balance, you'd have to cut the options and variety a wizard can have if you get rid of vancian. A mana based system will end up more like other games where you just don't have 400-600 spells to choose from each time you rest, but instead have 5 or 6 elemental damage spells.



To me i like variety. I like options. Give me mana, give me spell points, give me psi points. Just don't think that removing vancian you are adding anything to the game. If you want some other mechanic, add a class which uses said mechanic, figure out how much power they get so while completely different, give them some lore. I have a long term project to add a set of mana based casters to the game, which have a lot of variety like wizards.



The last thing i want though is for D&D to just assume there is one system that is better than all others, i like it now where we have choices, and lots of them.

[The Fred]

You make a good point, that systems like these can - and indeed do - coexist peacefully. However, the question is more about whether you think this specific system works in its own right, both tactics-wise and flavour-wise.

[nicethugbert]

I agree with painofverylongname. More options in the rules system is better. Variety is an intergral part of D&D as is the DM whittling it down for his campaign. The problem is not the system it's the use or lack of use of it.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Yes i think it works, it just has a lot of "arcane" rules which you got to deal with and learn, but then the prime stat for wizards is intelligence.



It allows a lot of power with a lot of limitations which balance said power. If you look at mana systems, even warlocks, you will notice the flexibility of choosing what to cast on the fly is paid for via less spells. If you let me cast 600 spells at a whim via a mana system, well it would be pretty boring since I'd always have the perfect low level spell handy.



A vancian caster if you are smart enough and can plan is much more powerful, but if he's planned poorly is dead meat. The issue is many players don't know the game that well and end up with a bunch of useless spells they can't figure out how to use or that are useless in a given situation, and its a video game and not much slower paced PNP campaign. Mana type systems just fit the computer medium easier, and if you find a single spell that works you can just spam it over and over ( perhaps waiting a bit as you recharge said mana ) and they tend to focus on magic being a way to hit things over the head instead of "controlling" the entire situation.



But then if i wanted a game which does spells like that i can just grab a box without reading it that says it has magic, there is only one game which makes me think and plan before i even rest which spells i am going to use, and which allows me to have hundreds of options.

[Ticladesign]

The cooldown timer concept actually takes good care of Spell spamming in quick sucsession, I see so much in NWN/NWN2. Even in the Vancian system you can drop 6 fireballs into the spellslots and then can spam away six times in a row.



The cooldown timer method puts different Cooldown timers on various spells, depending on how powerfull/spammable they can be. Which is s very good system for a PC/Video game.



Spellcasting in NWN with this cooldown timer system, just like Knockdown/Hide, would be an interesting concept to work out. But I sure lack the programming skills to pull that off.

[dethia]

it'd be a bit of work but it's very easy to add a line in every spell script to restore the spell after x amount of seconds/rounds/minutes so mages have unlimited casting much like warlocks but with some cooldowns. Of course then mages would be over-powered heh. As for the Vancian system I both like and dislike it. It requires a lot more strategy in any setting than a mana system and that is part of the fun. You can either rejoice because you happened to have the perfect spell for the situation or cry because if only you had that spell you wouldn't be back in town bruised and battered. With a mana system it always comes down to mana regeneration/mana potions ;/.

[dunniteowl]

I think a 'cooldown' timer is a viable idea. Again, I reference my analogy to Ptolemaic cosmology where more 'fixes' keep being added into the system to 'balance' it when what it really requires is pretty much a complete Copernican 'do over.' If there were sufficient controls put in place in to the mechanics in the first place, if you didn't have the mana to cast 5 or 6 Fireball spells in a row, you just couldn't do it. If you did, then you could and more power to you. A one man Immolation Surge fest. But it'd cost you.

Until you properly rested (and I see the resting system as implemented both in NWN and NWN2 as horribly, Horribly broken, warped, buckled and distorted and wholly to blame for the entire concept of spamming spells in the first place) you wouldn't gain back any more than a fractional portion of your mana to allow you to cast more spells in the first place.

People seem to forget how integral a properly mimicked resting system is for this game. It's a specific cornerstone playing mechanic and yet, because 'the instant gratification' crowd doesn't like to 'rest' as it's PnP implemented, it gets short shrift and therefore wholly unbalances the game.

Again, let's slap another layer of 'balance' formulae on the game (Ptolemaic Repair Service) so that we now have these ridiculously long dungeons, full of baddies that would choke even Elminster or drown Drizz't if they couldn't rest, and allow people to literally breeze through them, even on Hard Core settings, because they can still stop and rest for 5 seconds, walk a few more meters ahead and engage in another VIetnam Era style firefight -- or an A-Team encounter -- where all the good guys and none of the bad guys are standing 30 seconds later.

Fast paced action? You bet. Tactical? Well, yeah. In the "spirit of the game?" Hardly. (IMO)

It's not just the Vancian Magic, or just Mana. It's using them in a complete and competent manner recognizing their interconnection with the rest of the core mechanics that make the game what it is.

I disagree that D&D supports the other character classes to represent that you can add, modify or scrap or change the other elements and still have it be D&D. At least not in the Official as presented by WotC sense. It is true you can choose to have them or not, or make a pretty much 'roll your own' system loosely based off it. However, I see the Warlock and the Sorceror as cobbled onto the game to appease the many folks who, again, just don't comprehend the entire Vancian Casting/Magic concept in the first place. They have no reference point other than a paragraph or two telling them in the PHB (Player's Hand Book) or the DMG (Dungeon Master's Guide) how complex and difficult it is to hold the energy of the spell in one's mind. There is no core explanation for this and it does not jibe with anything we've been presented with as a socialized civilization that matches it. Unless you've read "The Dying Earth" and have a solid point of reference for how that magic is supposed to operate in the first place, that is.

Warlocks and Sorceror's on the other hand, work a LOT more like what we have been socially programmed to think a magic user is all about. And to make them 'balanced' for the game, the Ptolemaic Repair Man has been at it again. Limiting their spell selections, limiting their ability to acquire new spells, limiting the way they can know spells, etc. All in order to allow them into the game as it stands, without making them too powerful.

If sufficient time and attention were given to the wholistic framework of magic, including ensuring that resting was properly presented as a cornerstone mechanic (and I have spoken on the potential to use Resting as a 'base of operations' in cRPGs when it comes to making character choices before, which would assist in this matter) then you could provide a mana or spellpoint system that not only embraced the most common concepts of how we, as a rule, see magic operating, which is more like how Warlocks and Sorcerors perform magic; it would also prevent those classes from becoming all powerful spammers of fireballs -- unless they were willing to accept the potential consequences of their actions -- and still also allow you to put in place an alternate framework for Vancian casting.

I see it this way: You can use a Vancian casting system or not. But you really cannot have two competing magical concepts operating at the same time. EIther magic is too damn freaky hard to hold onto and you must remember the spells as writtenn on the paper, holding the energy locked in your mind, ready to be released with a 'trigger' series of words, gestures and/or material components (another missing ingredient, though not really a principal one) to cast them, or you are simply born with this 'talent' for magic and can automatically cast them without training, study or holding those energies balanced and poised to be cast, or you can do some naturally, but can also learn and study magic from an Arcane point of view.

These are not complementary mechanics, they are competing frameworks for how magic functions in the first place. This doesn't jibe well in a single system based on only one framework. With a properly implemented spell point or mana system (this is that Copernican replacement I allude to) you could decide whether or not Vancian Magic works or whether it's a combination of Vancian, colloquial magic (such as what we are socially inundated with in books, TV and film) or some other thing, still all able to be placed into their respective compartments within the entire framework.

Of course, it would take a major paradigm shift to be able to use it and have the gaming population embrace it. And, in parallel with my Ptolemaic and Copernican analogy, I imagine that there is a pretty solid base of near theocratic dogma surrounding keeping the D&D system as it is, with more being added onto it in order to 'explain' away the obvious discrepancies of celestial/magical motions without actually addressing the cracks in the system as it groans under it's own weight.

As I said, the Vancian system works as a strictly Turn-Based Play mechanic and the concept of Resting as implemented in PnP. This makes it a very focused, tactical and strategic overall system that, while not well explained for those not exposed to Vancian Magic in the first place, can be comprehended and grasped as a game mechanic -- in PnP.

In cRPGs that are not Turn Based, and with Resting gutted the way it has been since just around the Baldur's Gate franchise's end, well -- it leaves something to be desired, IMHO.

dunniteowl

[nicethugbert]

Why are we interested in spellcasters not being able to cast spells? What else are they supposed to do to entertain the player?

[dunniteowl]

Excuse me? What ever gives you the impression that spellcasters shouldn't cast spells? That was never implied. And, as far as that goes, spellcasters always run into a 'wall' where they can no longer cast spells. Am I missing something or are you misinterpreting something to mean something else?

This is a really 'left field' sort of question as I see it in the context of this discussion.

dno

[nicethugbert]

It was made explicit. You acknowledge that spellcasters run into a "wall" where they cannot cast spells. Furthermore, a cool down timer makes that "wall" periodic.  There are also anti-magic zones.

So, my questions remain. Why are we interested in spellcasters not being able to cast spells? What else are they supposed to do to entertain the player?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:51 .

[The Fred]

I guess they are supposed to do the same thing that fighters do when they run out of health.

[kamalpoe]

Hare (wizard) versus turtle (fighter)

big burst and then you stink versus slow and steady