69 réponses à ce sujet

[I_Raps]

The GygaxianWithANodToVance system has been debated for decades, and the designers have always stuck with it for a very simple reason - alluded to several times in this thread, but that some refuse to accept.

Play Balance.

Mana System - I can cast 5 level 6 spells, that's 30 mana OR I can cast three extra level 9 spells.  WooHoo!
Gygaxian - No you can't.  Low level spell slots cannot be used to cast higher level spells.  The limits are hard.

But, it was argued, why can't I just cast whichever level 6 spells I want instead of memorizing?
A better argument, and one they conceded on.  That's why we have Sorcerers.  But they left the Wizards et al because they weren't going to alienate half their players.

Don't ask me what they were thinking with Warlocks. 

D&D still rules the roost after 35(?) years because they're doing something right.

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I am not sure the problem is vancian. I think how the slots are set up is just a minor issue compared to larger issues being discussed.

...

The fact is folks have an issue with the overall way spells are being done in NWN2, and since the design of PNP is a few big encounters, and this video game is a lot more like Diablo than PNP, well the system just does not fit.

...

The thing i always think about though is that "making sense" is not really a good criteria. It should be looked at how it allows people to play concepts, how it enables the player, and what it makes them worry about. To a large degree a system is successful if the end user keeps coming back and does not get bored, too few restrictions and they master it too easy and they move on to better challenges.

And while all that is very true, let us not lose sight of the fact that Neverwinter Nights is D&D.  It's not a separate game in a world all its own like Diablo.  In fact, the biggest complaints it gets are for where it varies from canon, not where it sticks to it.

Modifié par I_Raps, 08 septembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[The Fred]

I've always thought that, whether you use a pure Vancian or level-slotted system, you ought to be able at least to use a high-level slot to cast low-level spells. That would make a lot more sense, because you essentially have the equivalent of a non-regenerating mana system (call it a points system if you want) with additional limitations on the maximum number of spells of each level you can cast.



Also, there's a distinction between whether you're criticising NWN for using the PnP mana system, or using it without the PnP restrictions such as resting etc.



P.S. I realise the use of the word "abolished" in the title is quite strong, but I need to provoke debate somehow ;-)

[I_Raps]

The Fred wrote...

I've always thought that, whether you use a pure Vancian or level-slotted system, you ought to be able at least to use a high-level slot to cast low-level spells. That would make a lot more sense, because you essentially have the equivalent of a non-regenerating mana system (call it a points system if you want) with additional limitations on the maximum number of spells of each level you can cast.

D&D does that with the Heighten Spell Feat.  Alas, not implemented in NWN2.  You can sort of get the effect by using other Metamagic Feats.

Modifié par I_Raps, 08 septembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[dunniteowl]

I really gotta finish my "Discourse on Magic" paper that I started a good while back. In it are the basis and framework for my current efforts in constructing a complete magic system.

Without putting more emphasis on that poor dead horse I've been beating let me make a few unqualified blanket statements of opinion:

Mana systems as most describe are not true mana systems, they are cool down timered unlimited use systems (especially if you mention the word arcade anywhere in the sentences.)

Mana, Spell Points, or Limited Casting can all follow the same rules set in a framework that is properly considerate of how (in concept) those systems are supposed to work, thus, magic does have to make sense as it relates to the mechanics and descriptions of how it is supposed to work when reading the rules on it.

Balance does not get thrown out the window just because Vancian Casting is not used. The balance issue is, again, one of making sure one builds a strong foundation. Vancian Casting, per se, is not the problem. The problem is when you start adding more crap onto a system to appease a sector without checking to make sure that the framework you're putting it onto can truly absorb the weight. The D&D system does not hold up under that load, IMNSHO with 29+ years of looking it over pretty carefully and watching the additions accrue, though no major reworkings of the entire system to support the new stuff.

Okay, that's pretty much it for me until I can link my "Discourse on Magic," itself a Scholarly work of Arcane study and consideration over time.



best regards,

dunniteowl

[The Fred]

Speaking from "sort-of" experience, mana *is* harder to balance, as I'm finding with my new Ki system (which is basically a mana system for monks and ninjas). It's just much more flexible. Still, that's a bit of a lazy get-out if it's the kind of system you wanted to use.

[dunniteowl]

Yeah, The Fred, you literally can "whip one up" and it'll work, but as most have opined, those easy to make ones screw the pooch on overall balance. A lot of factors really need to be taken into account. Do you get bonus mana points for extraordinary Attribute Stats (like High INT or CON for wizzies and priests?) Do you allot a scaling series of points per spell level? Can you 'tap' into the HP totals (your actual "lifeforce" instead of your mana energy?) Do you have options to power up or power down spells? Do you have a "maintenance" fee of mana points for extended length spells? (It seems to me it should be this way, but hey, you can design what you like with this.)



And yes, you could apply this mana points setup to be called Ki/Chi, Pranha, Psionic Power, you name it, and then adapt it to your liking. And that's why I disagree that a mana system is only made by folks who aren't creative or who are lazy. I offer that Vancian Casting is a lot easier to do on the whole and keep balanced when you get right down to it. However, for that ease of use and balance, you get a LOT LESS flexibility when it comes to making new things work in that system.



That was my entire point of making the analogy of Ptolemaic vs Copernican Celestial Mechanics.



Dang it, The Fred, you sucked me back in and I'm not finished with my Discourse! Curse you!



dunniteowl

[kamalpoe]

Titan Quest, a quite fun diablo style game, allowed you do maintain many spells at a maintenance cost. As long as you regenerated mana at a greater rate than the maintenance cost, you could keep the spell(s) going indefinitely.



It seems that giving higher mana regeneration for a high stat is common, and a higher bank of mana points to draw from comes from the experience level of the character. More powerful spells had higher mana costs, beyond the total mana pools of lower level casters.



This system tends to lead to spell and then mana potion spamming. Which can be fun, for what it is. It's not tactical, at least as I've seen it done (there's always so many mana potionss), unless you consider spell/mana pot spamming tactical. It is a tactic, but only in a crude manner.

[dunniteowl]

And that, kamalpoe, is my beef with most mana systems. You have a Potion to restore magical energy spent? That just seems ridiculous on it's face, doesn't it? And it's also why they do end up becoming spam fests. I'll just suck down this bottle of magic juice (on the label it says 5 Hour Mana Drink, and doesn't cause 'crashing') and BAM! I'll just rattle off another wave of fireballs, lightning bolts and elemental summons. Easy.

Wouldn't it be more of a catch if, well, you could 'suck' the magic out of a potion that was magic, or an item (like a sword or mace) to cast a spell, but once done, that item was no longer magic? That's how I see mana being taken from things. A magic potion to restore magical vigor just doesn't make any sense. You'd have to expend the energy, magically to make the potion, too.

I guess you could sort of consider them like a 'magic debit card' where you put the mana in a 'bank' so to speak, by putting the magical essence into the potions, then suck them down later.

Wow, I talked myself into thinking those could be less fantastic than I previously thought!

Talk about persuasive. I convinced myself!

dunniteowl

[Thorne_underfoot]

So here are my two cents.

First off, it has always been my understanding (through conversations with both Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer) that the D&D system was intended to be a loose framework that allows a group of people to get together and share a game/story in an interactive manner. As such, if a rule or set of rules don’t make sense, don’t use them or modify them till they did work. They never intended the game to become “Monopoly” where the rules were set in stone and immutable to the point where it was un-playable.



Additionally, NWN is an attempt to “Bring D&D to the computer”, not replicate it down to the last comma. By extension, the intent was to create a game “In the vein” of D&D. Even if it were to exactly mirror it in all it’s complexity, which I don’t think could be done in today’s computing environment, it would fall a foul of the previous intention, that of “if it doesn’t work within the context, throw it out”.



Due to the nature of CRPGs in general, I can see how vancian magic system is not as ideal in CRPG environment as it may be for PnP for reasons as wide and varied as pacing of the setting all the way to the fact that certain magic spells are simply not incorporated. So the only viable question is, does it work. Forget about “Is it D&D pure”. It isn’t now. And can never be (see above).



With that being said, I would think that a system that was “Similar” yet more effectively fit the environment would be more true to the game as it was envisioned rather than ‘Sticking to the rules’ and to heck with fun. And making something that simply does not work well is in no one’s best interests. This is all Just my humble opinion there.

[The Fred]

Thorne_underfoot wrote...
They never intended the game to become “Monopoly” where the rules were set in stone and immutable to the point where it was un-playable.

Actually there are that many variations on the Monopoly rules I always make people agree on them before I ever play a game. Some mates of mine decided to play "Drinkopoly" once which, as you can guess, further aggreviated the problem. They now refuse to play it with me..

Anyway, I digress. Again.

[The Fred]

OK well in the strongest debating-like tradition, I guess we should have a vote!

[nicethugbert]

I imagine we would see a topic such as this one about Psionics if it were in the game.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[dunniteowl]

And with Plan 9's system, Psionics vis-a-vis Psychic Talents are going to be a real possibility. It should be pretty fun. And why? Because the magic system is easily transported, pretty much wholesale, to a Psychic system and used in similar manner, plus that will be all script controlled, there will be no engine limits in terms of mechanics (other than what we simply cannot get it to do) for scripting and personal modules, and modifications to the script codes.

Good times.

dunniteowl

[nicethugbert]

NEAT! What's Plan 9?

[kamalpoe]

Plan 9 is, essentially, a completely community made game/toolset effort. Doing all the things the community would like to see out of a toolset. It leverages stuff already out there like the open source Ogre game engine.

[metatheurgist]

nicethugbert wrote...

I imagine we would see a topic such as this one about Psionics if it were in the game.

There's been mention of Vancian being "balanced" but in my exp. the system just seems to give clerics/wizards enough power to wipe everything without resting at high levels (HA! That's just my first Wish for the day 13 left and I've still got 32 8th levels to go!) but not enough power to do anything at low (Wait...I only get 2 magic misslies? Woo, I did 1 point, did that tickle?).

Always thought the Psi point system was the best. Gave casters the flexibility to go Nova or to slow burn without making them overpowered. It only works if you strictly enforce resting though.

I think that's the main problem with transporting PnP systems to real-time games. Computer gamers don't want to put up with "stoopid" restrictions like not being able to cast spells 100% of the time. The usual lame argument is "I'm a sorcerer/wizard/psion/blah why shouldn't I be able to constantly fireball everything."

[nicethugbert]

I agree. Some people just want an interactive cartoon series, especially if they're little kids or don't have time for something more involved.

But, for the rest, Vancian can be made to work. But publishers do not want to pay for much work.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[The Fred]

The ki system I'm implementing in my module will be mechanically similar to a points-based Psionic system, so it's more than doable in NWN2. Plan 9 (sounds like something out of a spy film), if it succeeds, would be (theoretically) so much better for basically everything, mind.

[dunniteowl]

Plan 9's name is a temporary 'working title' and is only used, because I have a quirky sense of humor. The title: "Plan 9 From Outer Space" is quite possibly one of the worst films ever made and even though it had Star Power (Bela Lugosi) it suffered from many ills in it's creation. I used it as an Homage to Bad Films that have become cult classics as well as many other smaller, more trivia related reasons.

It's only sort of Off Topic, but as a moderator, I tend to avoid promoting my own stuff in the open forums without good incentive or reason. In this case, I feel it's skirting the edge at the moment. Here's a link for anyone interested in my overall view of magic: "Caster Wanta Mana System? Raawk!" You can also find (and believe me, if you don't feel intimidated by the amount of posts in this section, I'd be surprised) information on Plan 9 here: (NWN3?) The Next Moddable cRPG w/Toolset.

Now beyond all that, please accept my apologies for a shameless plug. Know that I am not doing it for me -- I'm doing it for all of us -- seriously. And of course any new recruits and helpful hands that may come of this can only be a good thing.



best regards,

dunniteowl

[The Fred]

OK it's been about a week now so I've closed the poll.



The vote failed 7 to 3. There was (at least) one abstention (not including my own, which I felt that as self-elected chair, was appropriate except in the event of a tie).



I guess "abolished" was just too string a word. ;-)