56 réponses à ce sujet

[Arttis]

I will claim victory since you care so much about it.

self esteem boost YA!



I wanna get more for less.

[Sheylan]

- Archangel - wrote...

Sornin wrote...

Flamin Jesus, obvious troll is an obvious troll, just ignore him. He is convinced that it is a financial issue, when it is not. The straw man comment stating that if it is a financial burden one should not purchase it is a clear indicator he has no capacity to debate anything in an intellectual manner that addresses any real issues.

Ahhh...the old "I don't agree with him so he's a troll" message board gambit....alsways a favorite....even if older than dirt.


What's there to debate?

It's a couple of people crying because they think they are entitled to a bunch of stuff for free.  As was said, Bioware gets to decide what the "Full" game is, and that's what you get in the standard edition.

I will throw in my two denari here...

I agree. DLC, as long as it is handled intelligently and honestly, and you are buying an actual proffesional product, not something a half decent modder could throw together in a couple days *cough* "Horse Armor" *cough*, is an awsome way of providing new content. It provides stable income for a developer, (providing a steady stream of income throughout the year, rather than huge spikes whenever a new game or "full" expansion is released). It extends the life cycle of a game by giving people a reason to stay interested.

Also, as to the "Paying for something that should have been in the game to begin with" bull****. Do you expect to get desert when you pay for an entree? No, of course not. But some people(me), would argue that desert is an integral part of the meal.

Lastly. Why in the name of the Maker are you complaning about giving BIOWARE(!) your money???!!!

Bioware has easily the best relations with its community of ANY major developer you care too name. Not only that, but they provide fun, polished, and just plain GOOD games with an almost terrifing degree of consistancy.

Modifié par Sheylan, 24 octobre 2009 - 04:01 .

[Arttis]

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.



Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$

It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

[Sheylan]

Arttis wrote...

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.

Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$
It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

What, exactly, did they take out of the game?

[Arttis]

Im thinking future game releases.

[Sheylan]

Arttis wrote...

Im thinking future game releases.

Then who cares? The future is exactly that, the future. Man has this funky thing, it's called free will(At least, we think we do, there is no real proof that we do, no proof to the contrary though either). But as a result, the future is impossible to predict, LIVE FOR TODAY I SAY!!!

After all, its entirely possible that on Nov 2nd the Rishathan Sphere will arrive in orbit and turn every major human settlement into dust.

Now I am going to go watch Kill Bill.

(+1 Sheylan Rep if you recognize the literary reference.)

Modifié par Sheylan, 24 octobre 2009 - 04:16 .

[Jab0r]

Arttis wrote...

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.

Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$
It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

Then when it happens, you can protest against that by not buying the 1 burger and fries combo.

It makes negative sense to try and protest against a not-yet-existent 1 burger and fries combo by not buying the 2 burgers and fries combo.

Modifié par Jab0r, 24 octobre 2009 - 04:23 .

[Arttis]

Prevention and awareness.Of the future.

[Sheylan]

Jab0r wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.

Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$
It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

Then when it happens, you can protest against that by not buying the 1 burger and fries combo.

It makes negative sense to try and protest against a not-yet-existent 1 burger and fries combo by not buying the 2 burgers and fries combo.

You, my freind have the right attitude.

In fact, by NOT buying the 2 burgers and fries combo we Encourage them to make a 1 burger and fries combo because they have to eek more money out of their remaining market.

[Arttis]

But they plan on doing it either way.

[Sheylan]

Arttis wrote...

But they plan on doing it either way.

You know this... How? Exactly?

[Arttis]

Oh well i give....for now...

Modifié par Arttis, 24 octobre 2009 - 04:39 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Sheylan wrote...

Jab0r wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.

Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$
It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

Then when it happens, you can protest against that by not buying the 1 burger and fries combo.

It makes negative sense to try and protest against a not-yet-existent 1 burger and fries combo by not buying the 2 burgers and fries combo.

You, my freind have the right attitude.

In fact, by NOT buying the 2 burgers and fries combo we Encourage them to make a 1 burger and fries combo because they have to eek more money out of their remaining market.

The problem is that it's happening right now, albeit in a minor way, not with the Stone Prisoner, not even with Wardens Keep, but with those 3 extra items. Yes, I get them, because I pre-ordered the CE, yes, that makes my complaints a little insincere, since I'm already buying the 1 burger and fries combo with an extra burger while complaining about it, but I hope that BW will listen to this. I just think that the difference between a collectors edition and the regular edition should be strictly outside of a game, for me it diminishes the... emotional value of my CE, if I may say so, that I can never truly say I bought it because I of my appreciation of the product and its developers, but that at some point I also paid for an upgrade to get the 'full' game.

Not to mention that once they are gone, they are gone (Unless you buy a DDE, in which case you don't get a physical copy), if I hadn't known about the impending release and would have had to order a few weeks from now, then I wouldn't get the items, so does nobody who actually IS in that situation, who's to say it won't be me next time?

[Sheylan]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Sheylan wrote...

Jab0r wrote...

Arttis wrote...

Im just gonna say that they may take out something that was intended to be in the game to make an early release.Thus i don't get the whole game.Thats just one example.DLC coming out the same time as the game releases kinda seems like it was all suppose to be in the game.Not saying thats what happened but thats what it feels like.

Coming soon 2 burgers and fries combo 5$
It comes out 1 burger and fries combo5$ and additional burgers are 3$

Then when it happens, you can protest against that by not buying the 1 burger and fries combo.

It makes negative sense to try and protest against a not-yet-existent 1 burger and fries combo by not buying the 2 burgers and fries combo.

You, my freind have the right attitude.

In fact, by NOT buying the 2 burgers and fries combo we Encourage them to make a 1 burger and fries combo because they have to eek more money out of their remaining market.

The problem is that it's happening right now, albeit in a minor way, not with the Stone Prisoner, not even with Wardens Keep, but with those 3 extra items. Yes, I get them, because I pre-ordered the CE, yes, that makes my complaints a little insincere, since I'm already buying the 1 burger and fries combo with an extra burger while complaining about it, but I hope that BW will listen to this. I just think that the difference between a collectors edition and the regular edition should be strictly outside of a game, for me it diminishes the... emotional value of my CE, if I may say so, that I can never truly say I bought it because I of my appreciation of the product and its developers, but that at some point I also paid for an upgrade to get the 'full' game.

Not to mention that once they are gone, they are gone (Unless you buy a DDE, in which case you don't get a physical copy), if I hadn't known about the impending release and would have had to order a few weeks from now, then I wouldn't get the items, so does nobody who actually IS in that situation, who's to say it won't be me next time?

This is not a new thing (I think the first time I can remember buying a collectors edition game was The 2nd Legend of Zelda N64 game, Magoras Mask or w/e). Nor is it a particularly bad thing (from a business perspective. Is it strictly moral? It's arguable that it's not, but business very rarely is). It builds anticipation for a game, and encourages people to commit to buying the game well before it comes out. If people pre-order a game, they are much more likely to tell freinds about it, and encourage them to get it also. And how do you get people to pre-order a game? Offer them goodies.

[DocSun]

You know i never understood this argument. Ive have been playing games for years and have always enjoyed them. To me, DLC (for the most part; there have been some excuses) were just extra addons to a game that I already had IN FULL. Examples come to mind are fable 2, Fallout 3, right off the top of my head. I played those games for hours and hours. Then the DLC came out for both of them, I did not think that I was being jipped in fact I think It was great, They expanded on the basic content of an amazing game with extra levels and new items. I gladly paied for it.



In the old days things like this didn't exist; if there was a bug too bad, if there was new content, the either released it as a sequel or a "Directors Cut" edition and expected me to pay full price.



For the most part DLC is a great direction for the industry to go in. There are the cases of abuse (horse armor comes to mind) but for the most part its there for you; if you want it.



I think most people have an issue because these items (both the pre-order exclusives and the things like wardens keep) because they were announced ahead of time. If they waited a month or two after release to tell you "hey check out these items and updates some of them are free if you just play our flash game, others are a small fee but add more then a few hours of gameplay we wouldn't argue.



As for the CE I think it's been stated, you pay more you get more. I don't see a problem with this. Unless you just want to make all games CE and everyone can pay the 70-80$ for the "CE" instead of some deciding the few extra real and ingame items are not worth it and get it cheaper.

[Srikandi715]

I agree with Flamin Jesus (something I never thought I'd type, as a devout atheist ). But I don't think this argument can be resolved rationally. It has to do with the fact that our society is divided into two over a very basic issue: those that don't think that everything they look at and everything they do should be pervaded by marketers trying to claim a piece of their brain, and those that think that situation is "just the way it is" and "what's your problem with it?" The divide is at least partly generational... those as old as I am remember the world before it WAS this way, when people didn't wear their brand labels on the OUTSIDE of their clothes, for instance. But partly it has to do with your attitude towards corporations, and whether you trust them to take over more and more of your daily attention budget.

*ahem* But that is not what I started out to post What I started out to post is that THIS GAME SHIPS WITH MOD TOOLS That means that it is completely pointless to spend any money OR time, or jump through any hoops, to get DLC as minor as a single piece of equipment... because anybody can mod that up in a matter of minutes. Assuming you're on the PC, of course.

DLC like the Stone Prisoner, of course, is a different kettle of fish; that represents a lot of art assets, dialogue scripting, quest development, voice acting etc etc which is beyond what the average gamer can easily do. That type of DLC is worth actual bucks. That and maybe the Whatsit Keep might be worth something, but the rest of it can pretty much be ignored.

The real motivation for "free to anybody that buys the game" DLC like the Stone Prisoner (and the extra downloadable town that shipped with Sims 3) is two-fold: crush the used game and rental market, and try to stamp out piracy, by providing part of the game to the original buyer only. I have a smidgen of sympathy for this motivation, given the dimensions of the piracy problem in particular... relative to the DLC that's used only for marketing.

Edit: BTW, on the history of collectors' editions: yes, these have been around for a long, long time. But DA:O is the first game I have played that gives you IN-GAME items... that alter the playing experience... with a CE. It is much more usual to provide only a fancy box, cloth map, "making of" DVD or the like... and provide exactly the same game on the disk.

Modifié par Srikandi715, 24 octobre 2009 - 05:01 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Sheylan wrote...

This is not a new thing (I think the first time I can remember buying a collectors edition game was The 2nd Legend of Zelda N64 game, Magoras Mask or w/e). Nor is it a particularly bad thing (from a business perspective. Is it strictly moral? It's arguable that it's not, but business very rarely is). It builds anticipation for a game, and encourages people to commit to buying the game well before it comes out. If people pre-order a game, they are much more likely to tell freinds about it, and encourage them to get it also. And how do you get people to pre-order a game? Offer them goodies.

Well, CE's aren't a new thing, and I have amassed a fair collection of them over the years (Although I lost a great deal a few years ago, unfortunately), I'm buying CE's whenever I'm really interested in a game. So I certainly don't mind the existence of CE's or that they run out eventually, what I mind is the recent (And as far as I know, that really is recent, I don't remember any case that's older than, say, two years) advent of the concept of selling additional ingame content with the CE's that the standard editions don't contain...
As an analogy, say you buy the premium burger menu, alright it comes with fries and a drink, that's cool, you paid for it after all, but it's not cool if they take the pickles out of the standard burger to make you buy the premium menu if you don't care for the fries and the drink, and after telling you that they only sell 20 premium burger menus a day....


I mean, I understand that BW is a business, they don't want our love, they want our money, that's fine, they wouldn't exist if it were any different. But this relationship is two sided, and in that sense, yes, when I give my money I AM entitled to some things, one of them is an honorable partner in the trade who doesn't unilaterally change the rules just because he's currently ahead in the power department.

[DocSun]

Flamin Jesus wrote...


As an analogy, say you buy the premium burger menu, alright it comes with fries and a drink, that's cool, you paid for it after all, but it's not cool if they take the pickles out of the standard burger to make you buy the premium menu if you don't care for the fries and the drink, and after telling you that they only sell 20 premium burger menus a day....

All I can say to that is that Games are different then food. They do the same to cars you have a standard edition and a luxuary edition (WITH MORE FEATURES). So you can use analogy anyway you want. I am on the side of the older games yes, but I do think that as long as its reasonable As stated in my above post and the poster just above you who talkes about it being worth it to buy things like the stone prisioner and wardens keep.

As for the order here and get this... in the end most of it will be overshadowed by better or even have a similar item in game.

[Sheylan]

I see where you are coming from, but I think you are making a false distinction. Exclusive in-game content is EXACTLY(okay, Mostly) the same thing as any other exclusive content in a CE. The only diffrince is the way you use it. The purpose that it serves, encouraging people to buy or pre-order a game, is exactly the same whether you receive it as a physical object or as an in-game item.

[Flamin Jesus]

Srikandi715 wrote...

DLC like the Stone Prisoner, of course, is a different kettle of fish; that represents a lot of art assets, dialogue scripting, quest development, voice acting etc etc which is beyond what the average gamer can easily do. That type of DLC is worth actual bucks. That and maybe the Whatsit Keep might be worth something, but the rest of it can pretty much be ignored.

I do agree, I really do, I think this is a distinction I may not have made clear enough previously, I have nothing against the Stone Prisoner, and I expect to buy the Wardens Keep soon after getting the game and -from what I've seen so far in videos- don't think it will be a rip-off, I also believe BW's explanation why it wasn't 'yanked out of the game' (Which I WOULD have a problem with). I HAVE bought and played DLC for a number of games and I'm certainly not against that idea on principle, nor am I against the character upload thing or the DAJ thing (Why would I, I got a fairly good Flash game and little preview of DA:O for free, and nobody forced me to use it), my problem is the very specific one outlined above, because I've seen it tried by companies over the last few years, and because slowly people become content with the idea of paying extra for the full game, and because -for me- that's going to turn into a real problem for the industry soon.
An industry I fully intend to start working in within the next 2 years, by the way, which might change my perspective...
But I really don't think so, it's not like I have problems understanding their desire to make money.

[Blessed Silence]

- Archangel - wrote...

Sornin wrote...

Flamin Jesus, obvious troll is an obvious troll, just ignore him. He is convinced that it is a financial issue, when it is not. The straw man comment stating that if it is a financial burden one should not purchase it is a clear indicator he has no capacity to debate anything in an intellectual manner that addresses any real issues.

Ahhh...the old "I don't agree with him so he's a troll" message board gambit....alsways a favorite....even if older than dirt.


What's there to debate?

It's a couple of people crying because they think they are entitled to a bunch of stuff for free.  As was said, Bioware gets to decide what the "Full" game is, and that's what you get in the standard edition.

Well you are trolling, due to the fact that anyone who has a different opinion that YOU, you are calling whiners.

This thread gets an epic fail for wasting my time.

[Sheylan]

Srikandi, on the subject of your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th paragraphs... I agree completely. \\





On the subject of your first paragraph however, I think we disagree on the subject of debate.

In my mind, we are argueing over wether or not it is acceptable for companies (developer, publisher, w/e) to include content in-game as an exclusive offer to people who buy a CE or pre-order a game. My read on the situation is that you guys are creating an artificial distinction between in-game and out-of-game. There is no distinction. They are simply two parts of a complete product. Thus, if one excepts that exclusive ANYTHING (a cloth map, a tin case, a spartan helmet) is acceptable to include in a CE, then in game-items and content is totally free game.



Feel free to eviscerate me now.

[Flamin Jesus]

Sheylan wrote...

I see where you are coming from, but I think you are making a false distinction. Exclusive in-game content is EXACTLY(okay, Mostly) the same thing as any other exclusive content in a CE. The only diffrince is the way you use it. The purpose that it serves, encouraging people to buy or pre-order a game, is exactly the same whether you receive it as a physical object or as an in-game item.

It does serve the same purpose, sure, but from my point of view it meddles with the essence of the product, say I'm buying a book, (Maybe a better analogy than burgers and cars, since a book, like a video game is more about the experience and idea than its physical components) if I get the hardcover edition I get a nicer book, but the content, that which I really want, is still the same, I don't have to buy the hardcover to get chapter 3. I am free to pay more for the luxury of having a nicer book, not forced to do so if I want the full experience. That's how I see this business.

Sure, it's just 3 fairly insignificant items in this case, we've had cases where people got better weapons for multiplayer FPS games and other things, compared to that it's really no big deal, but it's obvious they're testing the waters with this one (Like with some of the other marketing gags we had, some good, some less so), but wouldn't you agree that if I fear that this is just the first of many steps, it makes sense for me to voice my concerns now?

[Vita Nuova]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Sheylan wrote...

I see where you are coming from, but I think you are making a false distinction. Exclusive in-game content is EXACTLY(okay, Mostly) the same thing as any other exclusive content in a CE. The only diffrince is the way you use it. The purpose that it serves, encouraging people to buy or pre-order a game, is exactly the same whether you receive it as a physical object or as an in-game item.

It does serve the same purpose, sure, but from my point of view it meddles with the essence of the product, say I'm buying a book, (Maybe a better analogy than burgers and cars, since a book, like a video game is more about the experience and idea than its physical components) if I get the hardcover edition I get a nicer book, but the content, that which I really want, is still the same, I don't have to buy the hardcover to get chapter 3. I am free to pay more for the luxury of having a nicer book, not forced to do so if I want the full experience. That's how I see this business.

It's not quite the same.  It would be more congruous to complain about a book not including extras like a list of books by the same author or a preview of chapter one of the next book in the series.  Everything needed to enjoy the book is included, but there are extras which those who pay more for get.  I highly doubt there will be reams of extra dialogue if you're wearing the helm from the Journeys game...

[Flamin Jesus]

Vita Nuova wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Sheylan wrote...

I see where you are coming from, but I think you are making a false distinction. Exclusive in-game content is EXACTLY(okay, Mostly) the same thing as any other exclusive content in a CE. The only diffrince is the way you use it. The purpose that it serves, encouraging people to buy or pre-order a game, is exactly the same whether you receive it as a physical object or as an in-game item.

It does serve the same purpose, sure, but from my point of view it meddles with the essence of the product, say I'm buying a book, (Maybe a better analogy than burgers and cars, since a book, like a video game is more about the experience and idea than its physical components) if I get the hardcover edition I get a nicer book, but the content, that which I really want, is still the same, I don't have to buy the hardcover to get chapter 3. I am free to pay more for the luxury of having a nicer book, not forced to do so if I want the full experience. That's how I see this business.

It's not quite the same.  It would be more congruous to complain about a book not including extras like a list of books by the same author or a preview of chapter one of the next book in the series.  Everything needed to enjoy the book is included, but there are extras which those who pay more for get.  I highly doubt there will be reams of extra dialogue if you're wearing the helm from the Journeys game...

Now THAT I would more compare with cutting the credits out of the video game. 

Anyway, I have the feeling that with our changed group we actually got a fairly productive discussion going, alas, I unfortunately have to leave now (Board game exhibition! Woooo!), so I wish you all a nice day, night, or whatever else is appropriate for your current time-zone.