1473 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

dewayne31 wrote...

changes the way i look at the wardens. grant anders had justice inside but still. i think what they did was against what i thought they stood for. if they willing to turn anders to the templars.i think they might turn bethany over.

It makes them not very neutral.  I know they aren't supposed to take sides, but they exist only to fight darkspawn and they have a lot of binding treaties that give them extraordinary legal authority.  The Wardens are a fighting force, however, and men will not follow incompetent or untrustworthy leaders.  Turning Anders over undermines the wardens long term, as their own men will no longer trust them.  I suspect that situations like these are one of the reasons why the Wardens have the Right of Conscription.  They simply should've invoked it, told the templars to ****** off, and told the templars to leave their wardens alone so that they can get back to killing Darkspawn.

I kinda of disagree. It was implied during a conversation with Alistair in the first game that the Grey Wardens pretty much walk on egg shells with their "Right of Conscription" around the Nobles and Chantry. Duncan himself brings this up during the Human Noble origin when he, initially, decides to backdown on conscripting the HNW, because he didn't want to ****** of the Couslands. The Wardens are under heavy pressure to remain neutral, so this includes not doing anything to cross the Nobility or the Chantry. Anders is a wanted mage accused of be a Maleficar and, if not handed over to the Templars by the Warden-Commanders, killed his Templar Pursuers. If anything, the Wardens handing over Anders was in fact an attempt to maintain their neutrality and prevent the Chantry from pressuring Royalty to send them into Exile once more.

Just a theory on my part.

Still, it undermines the wardens as a fighting force.  You will not secure the loyalty of your men if you think they are going to insert a knife in your back when it's convenient.

Anders being a prime example.  He's hell on wheels in a fight and has a massive store of healer knowledge.  The Wardens lost that asset to their own craven perfidy.

[jamesp81]

dewayne31 wrote...

dangereusegirl wrote...

I've been lurking around in this thread, but I do want to put my two cents in.

I think with the whole Wardens turning in Anders (or even Bethany) it would depend on the Warden in command at the time. In Awakening, you have the option of handing him over to the templars, but you also have the option of sticking up for him. It's when the Warden Commander from Awakening, someone who (hopefully) has a good friendship with Anders, leaves and a new commander steps in, that Anders faces problems. I'm sure if the Warden was still Commander, he/she wouldn't have been so harsh with Anders.

From a different angle, look at what Anders did. He took in a spirit from the Fade, which made him an abomination in the eyes of most of Thedas. He put a lot of people at risk by letting Justice in, and the Wardens couldn't afford for that to happen when they were still replenishing their numbers in Ferelden. You may not agree with it, but for someone in the Grey Wardens, they did what they though was best.

I don't think Bethany is at a great risk for being turned over to the Templars. For one, she's not as well known as Anders (since he escaped so often from the Circle), and I don't think most templars would brand her an apostate if she was with the Wardens. She also doesn't seem the type of person to go and put herself at risk by becoming an abomination. I believe that there is a part of circle!Bethany inside of warden!Bethany that would accept the Circle's purpose, and wouldn't decide to participate in a war against the templars.

I would mostly agree. But Bethany if you accept her help in act 3 actually was apart of the beginning of the war. Therefore She already willing broke the rules of being a neutral party. I doubt the wardens would look kindly on that note.

That's it.  She's not going to the wardens.  She'll be free of their treachery to fight the good fight against the templars.

[Knight of Dane]

I was pleasantly surprised to see Bethany flirt with Sebastian and recognize Hawke's Merrillmance in Legacy dlc, now i've decided on chasing a short romance between them in my fanfic!

[dewayne31]

Knight of Dane wrote...

I was pleasantly surprised to see Bethany flirt with Sebastian and recognize Hawke's Merrillmance in Legacy dlc, now i've decided on chasing a short romance between them in my fanfic!

it was nice to see flirt with him. although i have a bad feeling bout choirboy.i think he going turn out to be traitor to the hawkes or leave for starkheaven. i thibk that romance would be a diseater for bethany. choirboy own words i find it hard to look at these aprostates and not see anders. but it was great see nevertheless

[Lestatman]

dewayne31 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I was pleasantly surprised to see Bethany flirt with Sebastian and recognize Hawke's Merrillmance in Legacy dlc, now i've decided on chasing a short romance between them in my fanfic!

it was nice to see flirt with him. although i have a bad feeling bout choirboy.i think he going turn out to be traitor to the hawkes or leave for starkheaven. i thibk that romance would be a diseater for bethany. choirboy own words i find it hard to look at these aprostates and not see anders. but it was great see nevertheless

Agree that it's nice to see some love interest for her but Sebastian is too integrated into the Chantry's beliefs for it to work out.  Besides my Warden Commander is waiting in the wings for her.

[trobbins777]

Lestatman wrote...

dewayne31 wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

I was pleasantly surprised to see Bethany flirt with Sebastian and recognize Hawke's Merrillmance in Legacy dlc, now i've decided on chasing a short romance between them in my fanfic!

it was nice to see flirt with him. although i have a bad feeling bout choirboy.i think he going turn out to be traitor to the hawkes or leave for starkheaven. i thibk that romance would be a diseater for bethany. choirboy own words i find it hard to look at these aprostates and not see anders. but it was great see nevertheless

Agree that it's nice to see some love interest for her but Sebastian is too integrated into the Chantry's beliefs for it to work out.  Besides my Warden Commander is waiting in the wings for her.

Actually I think Sebastian and Bethany have pretty much the same beliefs concerning the maker. Sebastian may be slightly more devout but i don't think Bethany would dislike that. 

[TobiTobsen]

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

[TobiTobsen]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

Bethany wants children? Where does she say this?

It's been quite a while since I played DA2 but I think it was in the conversation before or after you kill the slavers in the old Amell mansion.
She's talking about how she just wants to be normal, settle down and have a family, if I'm not mistaken.

[Sifr]

I think thats why Bethany clearly prefers being in the Circle, as their "Mother is Corp" style lets her express her maternal side towards her apprentices. While Bethany mentions she agrees with Anders that Mages should be allowed freedom, I personally think that is more of a Mage-rights issue than actual revolutionist thinking.

From what we see of her, she's very much like Wynne, and seems to simply enjoy teaching more than anything else. I doubt that before the Mage-Templar war, Bethany actively engaged in any Circle politics at all.

Modifié par Sifr1449, 04 août 2011 - 12:03 .

[trobbins777]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

Well technically sebastian already broke his vows once and Elthina never gave him his rank as brother back. As for the whole rat thing. He doesn't like apostates like Anders because they are dangerous(see chantry in act 3). He says there is no shame in being a mage, but the circle is necessary.

You know there is kind of a similarity between him going to the chantry and Bethany possibly going to the circle. In that they both have a way of life forced on them, yet they eventually find happiness in it.

[TobiTobsen]

trobbins777 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

Well technically sebastian already broke his vows once and Elthina never gave him his rank as brother back. As for the whole rat thing. He doesn't like apostates like Anders because they are dangerous(see chantry in act 3). He says there is no shame in being a mage, but the circle is necessary.

You know there is kind of a similarity between him going to the chantry and Bethany possibly going to the circle. In that they both have a way of life forced on them, yet they eventually find happiness in it.

It's not just Anders. It's Merrill too. And once again he isn't man enough to do it himself since he wants to "draw lots" with Fenris over it.
Also... it's the Kirkwall circle we are talking about. What do you think they would do with a blood mage like Merrill or a known member of the mage resistance like Anders? We are not talking about the same treatment Bethany, as a first time, non blood mage, got. We're talking about tranquility. Or maybe death if they're lucky.

Edit: I'm inserting the dialogue, so everybody knows what we're talking about =)

• Sebastian: It's our duty to tell the templars.
• Fenris: Then why haven't you done it?
• Sebastian: I guess I was hoping they'd come to it on their own.
• Fenris: And then you wouldn't have to betray Hawke's friends, right?
• Sebastian: That's not reason enough to allow a maleficar to walk free.

If Anders is in the party:

• Anders: You think the templars don't know I'm here? They just haven't caught me yet.

If Merrill is in the party:

• Merrill: Are you talking about me?
  
• Sebastian: Which of us should do it? Shall we draw lots?
• Fenris: Uh-uh. You want to turn them in, you work it out with Hawke.

And the thing with his vows... he won't break them for Lady Hawke. Why should he break them for Hawkes sister?

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[trobbins777]

TobiTobsen wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

Well technically sebastian already broke his vows once and Elthina never gave him his rank as brother back. As for the whole rat thing. He doesn't like apostates like Anders because they are dangerous(see chantry in act 3). He says there is no shame in being a mage, but the circle is necessary.

You know there is kind of a similarity between him going to the chantry and Bethany possibly going to the circle. In that they both have a way of life forced on them, yet they eventually find happiness in it.

It's not just Anders. It's Merrill too. And once again he isn't man enough to do it himself since he wants to "draw lots" with Fenris over it.
Also... it's the Kirkwall circle we are talking about. What do you think they would do with a blood mage like Merrill or a known member of the mage resistance like Anders? We are not talking about the same treatment Bethany, as a first time, non blood mage, got. We're talking about tranquility. Or maybe death if they're lucky.

[*]
And the thing with his vows... he won't break them for Lady Hawke. Why should he break them for Hawkes sister?

 
[*]
[*]Woah, woah, woah. calm down man. The dialogue you're talking about takes place during act 3 after Hawke has become champion. The Templars wouldn't dare touch Merrill or Anders even if they forced them to join the circle, which they wouldn't. Can you truly blame him for wanting to get a possessed mage and a naive (but well intentioned) maleficar off the streets of Kirkwall before they hurt someone. Sebastian is not conniving against Hawke. He is torn between doing what he thinks is right and betraying his friend. As Dumbledore once said(Yes i'm quoting harry potter deal with itB))[*] "It takes great courage to stand up to one's enemies, but even greater courage to stand up to one's friends."[*]As for the vows did you hear the banter between Bethany and Sebastian in Legacy? because I'm a dude and I totally mansquee'd. Also Bethany doesn't throw herself at him like f*hawke does.[*]PS How do i get rid of bullets?

Modifié par trobbins777, 04 août 2011 - 04:45 .

[TobiTobsen]

trobbins777 wrote...

Woah, woah, woah. calm down man. The dialogue you're talking about takes place during act 3 after Hawke has become champion. The Templars wouldn't dare touch Merrill or Anders even if they forced them to join the circle, which they wouldn't. Can you truly blame him for wanting to get a possessed mage and a naive (but well intentioned) maleficar off the streets of Kirkwall before they hurt someone. Sebastian is not conniving against Hawke. He is torn between doing what he thinks is right and betraying his friend. As Dumbledore once said(Yes i'm quoting harry potter deal with itB))
 "It takes great courage to stand up to one's enemies, but even greater courage to stand up to one's friends."
As for the vows did you hear the banter between Bethany and Sebastian in Legacy? because I'm a dude and I totally mansquee'd. Also Bethany doesn't throw herself at him like f*hawke does.
PS How do i get rid of bullets?

I'm calm. If it appeared otherwise I maybe picked the wrong words. English is not my first language I'm just discussing with you.

The whole "wouldn't dare to touch them because of Hawkes power" is pretty fishy anyway. If you ask me it's just a lazy apology for the fact that every Templar in Kirkwall completly ignores you and your mage friends after it was established in DAO that they even come for the sons and daughters of kings, nobles, whatever.
They would have imprisoned the son of an Arl but are stopped by the completly symbolic title of "Champion of Kirkwall"? Meh... I'm still not buying it.

And no, I didn't heard the banter. I haven't played Legacy. But why should a couple of flirts change his worldview suddenly? Maybe you can show me the banter and I'll change my mind, but at the moment I don't think he would break his vows again, when he wasn't even willing to do it for his "wife" Lady Hawke.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 04 août 2011 - 05:31 .

[dewayne31]

Let not forget techinally no matter what legacy takes before the last straw events or so i was told. so at the end his views of mages wasn't that good

[jamesp81]

They would have imprisoned the son of an Arl but are stopped by the completly symbolic title of "Champion of Kirkwall"? Meh... I'm still not buying it.

I don't think his title is what stopped them.

I think it's more the fact that every single human, elf, dwarf, qunari, and fade demon who set himself in Hawke's path tasted the business end of his sword.

They're afraid of him, and wisely so.

Consider the codex entry on Champions.  It states that Champions aren't necessarily heroes, just people with influence or who get things done.  Some champions are feared terribly, and Hawke appears to be one of these.

Modifié par jamesp81, 04 août 2011 - 06:06 .

[Lestatman]

I've always said there's no npc or companion in DA2 that I would have Bethany have a romance with. Maybe in DA3 if Beth returns maybe some better companions or my Warden would love to romance her.

[trobbins777]

TobiTobsen wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...
snip

I'm calm. If it appeared otherwise I maybe picked the wrong words. English is not my first language I'm just discussing with you.

oh, then i apologize for misinterpreting.

TobiTobsen wrote...
The whole "wouldn't dare to touch them because of Hawkes power" is pretty fishy anyway. If you ask me it's just a lazy apology for the fact that every Templar in Kirkwall completly ignores you and your mage friends after it was established in DAO that they even come for the sons and daughters of kings, nobles, whatever.
They would have imprisoned the son of an Arl but are stopped by the completly symbolic title of "Champion of Kirkwall"? Meh... I'm still not buying it.

Well the magistrate in the city pulls strings to keep his crazy/demon riddled son alive and free kidnapping elf children while the templars and guards turn a blind eye. Though what role the magistrates play in the government was never made clear to me.

TobiTobsen wrote...
And no, I didn't heard the banter. I haven't played Legacy. But why should a couple of flirts change his worldview suddenly? Maybe you can show me the banter and I'll change my mind, but at the moment I don't think he would break his vows again, when he wasn't even willing to do it for his "wife" Lady Hawke.

Well one thing that we know about Sebastian is that he lets himself be blown about like a weather vein.He might not want kids now but perhaps in the future he'll change his mind. Also, I believe he only won't break his vows if you friendmance him.

Also you can find the banter here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ8jGKtlqUg&feature=related
It begins at about 0:55.

Modifié par trobbins777, 04 août 2011 - 06:15 .

[Knight of Dane]

TobiTobsen wrote...

The problem those two would get is the whole children vs chaste marriage issue. Bethany wants kids, while Sebastian is "married" to the woman on his crotch plate.

Aaand let's not forget that Sebastian was totally into the idea of ratting every single mage in Hawkes company out. He just didn't had the balls to do it alone. Not the guy I would let my Mage Sister date.

Well, in my fic that doesn't matter, Bethany is a Warden and can't have children anyway.

Besides, sometimes love just conquers all, and Sebastian can perfectly marry a mage Hawke too, why not Bethany?

[TobiTobsen]

trobbins777 wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...
And no, I didn't heard the banter. I haven't played Legacy. But why should a couple of flirts change his worldview suddenly? Maybe you can show me the banter and I'll change my mind, but at the moment I don't think he would break his vows again, when he wasn't even willing to do it for his "wife" Lady Hawke.

Well one thing that we know about Sebastian is that he lets himself be blown about like a weather vein.He might not want kids now but perhaps in the future he'll change his mind. Also, I believe he only won't break his vows if you friendmance him.

Also you can find the banter here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ8jGKtlqUg&feature=related
It begins at about 0:55.

Ah, thank you!
Well it seems to me as if Sebastian is hitting on Bethany and not the other way around. And when I remember his... "history"... one more reason to keep him away from Beth

[Sepewrath]

Well that thing about Wardens being unable to have children isn't true.

[TobiTobsen]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well that thing about Wardens being unable to have children isn't true.

Yup. Just pretty unusual.
And who would want to raise a kid while hunting darkspawn? But... wait... this IS a BioWare game. Just name the kid Quayle and strap it on your back. Everything will be fine!

[Knight of Dane]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well that thing about Wardens being unable to have children isn't true.

I know, and even so, the hidden storyline besides the main one is my Amell Warden hunting down Avernus' leads on how to reverse the darkspawn corruption.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 04 août 2011 - 09:55 .

[dewayne31]

Because I'm bored to death. does anyone think our choices regarding bethany may matter in the future?