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[Knight of Dane]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Then you have no grasp of Bethany's character, she's almost as devout an andrastian as Sebastian, her beleif is at least as sincere.

That said i doubt a marriage would happen too, as i said before; the flirt between her and Sebastian and that of Merrill and Carver only seems to be a crush rather than something with a basis of real love.

Bethany is an Andrastian, but a Chantry loyalist? Not so much. There's a difference. Bethany's more of a "direct relationship with the Maker, no chantry necessary" kind of Andrastian. She sees the Chantry as a corrupt institution fueled by the flaws of men by the endgame, in the same way an early Protestant would have seen the Catholic Church.

Bethany, more than anything, needs a partner who can challenge her beliefs by offering intelligent counterpoints, not simply a hunky knight in shining armor who pretty much shares all of her beliefs. That's where character development and the dynamism of a relationship comes from, especially in drama.

Sure, Beth really never hd a chance to become a chantry loyalist like Sebastian because of her magic, and if she never had it to begin with maybe her beleif wouldn't be so strong to begin with.

And agreed on that, i like Sebastian/Bethany as a "D'awww Couple" but perhaps not fair relationship material, as i said before.

[Knight of Dane]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Ah c'mon... get that man**** turned pious chantry brother away from my little sister

I'm still suspicious about the fact that he is willing to sell out every mage in Hawkes party, but as soon as Bethany enters the room he is all "You were made as you are. I have yet to see evidence of the Maker's fallibility. I certainly don't see any in you."  Freaking sycophant.

*/fictive big brother rage* 

So one of his few jokes should be the one to descripe him?

What joke? His flirting with Beth? Or his proposal to Fenris that they should hand over the mages in Hawkes group to the chantry? I never understood either of them as a joke. I'm confused.

Bah, my sarcasm fails teh internetz again

Anyway: I never liked that banter too, it surprised me as it showed a side of Sebasitan i didn't really suspect. I guess time will show his true nature when he faces this war on either side, with or against Hawke.

[Quething]

TobiTobsen wrote...

I'm still suspicious about the fact that he is willing to sell out every mage in Hawkes party, but as soon as Bethany enters the room he is all "You were made as you are. I have yet to see evidence of the Maker's fallibility. I certainly don't see any in you."  Freaking sycophant.

Because Bethany is neither an abomination nor a maleficar.

Sebastian never suggests turning over Hawke, either. He's okay with apostates as long as they don't practice forbidden magic. As far as his understanding of the Chant runs, there's nothing wrong with having magic or using magic. The sin is consorting with demons or using blood magic. And in the end, Bethany neither gets an entire clan killed or blows up a Chantry, so I'd say his estimation of the danger posed by each of the three is pretty on track. (Yes, yes, insert Merrill fan arguing that the clan's death is all Marethari's fault here. The point stands that Sebastian's not being hypocritical or inconsistent in the least.)

Anyway Beth is totally a Chantry loyalist. It's part of why she's so self-hating. Even in the finale when Circle!Beth has finally started to understand that her family was right to protect her and that the mage cause is one she wants to be part of, she still hasn't reconciled her nature with her faith. She says she's tried so hard to understand what Andraste saw, why people like her had to be locked up - and then she doesn't finish her thought. She just trails off and looks pensive and sad. She still hasn't figured it out, and it still bothers her deeply. Because she's still buying the Chantry line, even then, that Andraste actually said "mages need to be locked up."

That's not direct relationship with the Maker, there, that's adherence to institutional dogma at its finest.

Not that Sebastian would be a help to that, of course. He's dogmatic as all hell and never taken the time to particularly examine his faith either, so he'd only make it worse for her. But a more confident post-endgame Circle Beth, would, I think, be a very good influence on him; once she does manage to reconcile her faith with her nature, she could be the impetus that forces him to do so as well. Sebastian's a good man, and doesn't have the same actual emotional impairment that prevents him from being rational about mages that Fenris does. Drag him along when you side with the mages and he'll outright say that mistreatment of mages is wrong, and what you're doing is about reclaiming the mercy and guardianship templars are supposed to represent from the sadists and abusers that have taken over. He's no Martin Luther himself, but he'd definitely follow one. (Elthina's already a bit of a heretic, after all, and he's got no trouble following her.)

He's a bit old for her, though. He's probably got five or ten years on Hawke and Hawke's got five to eight on the twins.

[CrimsonZephyr]

She says "But my powers come from the Maker, and I just cannot believe that is His will."

How is that the Chantry party line? In that very moment, Bethany pretty much broke from the Chantry dogma. She stated that the Maker would have looked more kindly on mages, that the Chantry was wrong about His wishes.

[dewayne31]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

She says "But my powers come from the Maker, and I just cannot believe that is His will."

How is that the Chantry party line? In that very moment, Bethany pretty much broke from the Chantry dogma. She stated that the Maker would have looked more kindly on mages, that the Chantry was wrong about His wishes.

i agree. that and the fact that choirboy says he cann't look at these apostates and not see anders. he has a narrow view of mages i think bethany ceased being a loyalist the minute the RoA was invoked

Modifié par dewayne31, 14 octobre 2011 - 12:17 .

[TobiTobsen]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

She says "But my powers come from the Maker, and I just cannot believe that is His will."

How is that the Chantry party line? In that very moment, Bethany pretty much broke from the Chantry dogma. She stated that the Maker would have looked more kindly on mages, that the Chantry was wrong about His wishes.

Word!

I don't see why she should be a chantry loyalist? She maybe was one at the beginning, but certainly isn't one at the end of DA2

"All these years, I've tried to understand what Andraste saw. Why she had to lock us up. But my powers come from the Maker... and I just cannot believe that this is His will."

"Maybe it took being locked up in the Gallows to understand my place in this world. To see the need to free my fellow mages."

Those two lines are from the last chat with her before the big fight against the templars. She is not only anti circle with that statement, she is also saying that the interpretation of Andrastes words by the church, or maybe even Andrastes tenets, should the chantry haven't altered them, are wrong.
The Maker gave her the gift of magic and the chantry is wrong in their doing.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 14 octobre 2011 - 09:46 .

[Quething]

Huh. I badly misremembered that. o.O

So I stand corrected, but that only makes her and Sebastian a better pairing, since she's already gotten to that self-confident place she needs to be to show him where he's wrong.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Quething wrote...

Huh. I badly misremembered that. o.O

So I stand corrected, but that only makes her and Sebastian a better pairing, since she's already gotten to that self-confident place she needs to be to show him where he's wrong.

Considering that he's either a committed celibate and Bethany has, from what we're shown, a physical attraction to him, it might not work out in the end. Either that or he is looking to reclaim a throne, in which case shacking up with a fugitive mage would be political suicide.

[Huntress]

Sebastian and bethany has nothing in commun, I have no idea where this comes from.. Sebastian will send bethany to the circle or walk away from her if warden.. rofl

If bioware wants this 2 character to at least have a furtive kiss, better hurry up.. bethany is going to grow up and kill the precious prince after act 3 or myhawke.

[thats1evildude]

They're both good people with an interest in helping others. They both believe in the Maker and Andraste (though Sebastian is far more devout). They both find each other physically attractive.

Relationships have been formed on far flimsier pretenses.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 17 octobre 2011 - 10:25 .

[Quething]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Considering that he's either a committed celibate and Bethany has, from what we're shown, a physical attraction to him, it might not work out in the end. Either that or he is looking to reclaim a throne, in which case shacking up with a fugitive mage would be political suicide.

Political suicide for the sake of love is not that uncommon. Any Hawke who chooses to oppose the RoA because my sister's in that tower dammit commits it, in fact. Coulda been viscount, otherwise. Though it's interesting to contemplate a chastemance; Beth's already resigned herself to never having love or family. If she could get one for two I'm not sure she'd turn it down for lack of the other.

Anyway, I just realized why I so badly misremembered that scene. I just played Legacy and MotA back-to-back, and a Circle Bethany's banter is so pro-Circle oh my God. I can't even reconcile it with her Gallows conversation. Or her codex at the beginning of Act II, for that matter. The only thing I can think of is that she's putting up a front so Hawke doesn't get herself killed tearing the Gallows apart brick-by-brick trying to free her, but that doesn't exactly work for every Hawke, even if you figure she's that good an actor.

[TobiTobsen]

Quething wrote...

Anyway, I just realized why I so badly misremembered that scene. I just played Legacy and MotA back-to-back, and a Circle Bethany's banter is so pro-Circle oh my God. I can't even reconcile it with her Gallows conversation. Or her codex at the beginning of Act II, for that matter. The only thing I can think of is that she's putting up a front so Hawke doesn't get herself killed tearing the Gallows apart brick-by-brick trying to free her, but that doesn't exactly work for every Hawke, even if you figure she's that good an actor.

When I think about it, I can't remember any extremly pro circle comments in MotA. I think I just got the "Happy to be out of the circle?" "It's strange. I miss a lot, but other things..." one. I saw it as the first sign of her growing discontent with the circle and the chantry.

Any other bits of banter that I missed? Not enough banter triggers

Edit: Just thought about Legacy. All her banter about the circle sounded more like "**** happens. We cannot change it anymore" to me. But it's been a while since I played Legacy, so I could be wrong.

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 17 octobre 2011 - 11:35 .

[Quething]

The worst one is with Aveline. Pro-Templar Aveline, of all people, says she doesn't like Beth in the Gallows. Beth says she's where she needs to be. Aveline says, "and what about where you want?" Beth says "I wouldn't always have said so, but yes."

MotA banter is, yeah, a lot harder to trigger :/ But the one I got that struck me as really strongly "um everyone sides with the mages so let's try to make the templars sound better in DLC" kind of thing was an Izzy/Beth banter. Isabela asks if she's happy to be out, and Beth's quite cheerful and positive about saying no, the Circle's great. I wish I'd grabbed a screencap; something about the fear of the Circle being much worse than the Circle itself, and with Izzy's letters it's like she never left.

(Stop sending my little sister pervy stories, Izzy. Especially not now that she's apparently started to like them.)

[TobiTobsen]

Quething wrote...

The worst one is with Aveline. Pro-Templar Aveline, of all people, says she doesn't like Beth in the Gallows. Beth says she's where she needs to be. Aveline says, "and what about where you want?" Beth says "I wouldn't always have said so, but yes."

MotA banter is, yeah, a lot harder to trigger :/ But the one I got that struck me as really strongly "um everyone sides with the mages so let's try to make the templars sound better in DLC" kind of thing was an Izzy/Beth banter. Isabela asks if she's happy to be out, and Beth's quite cheerful and positive about saying no, the Circle's great. I wish I'd grabbed a screencap; something about the fear of the Circle being much worse than the Circle itself, and with Izzy's letters it's like she never left.

(Stop sending my little sister pervy stories, Izzy. Especially not now that she's apparently started to like them.)

Ah... yes. The banter with Isabela. It seems that I had forgotten the first part of the banter, because I was to busy grinning like a moron while my Hawke was like "No! Isabela, no! Don't send my little sister those books! I don't even... NO!"

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:05 .

[trobbins777]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Then you have no grasp of Bethany's character, she's almost as devout an andrastian as Sebastian, her beleif is at least as sincere.

That said i doubt a marriage would happen too, as i said before; the flirt between her and Sebastian and that of Merrill and Carver only seems to be a crush rather than something with a basis of real love.

Bethany is an Andrastian, but a Chantry loyalist? Not so much. There's a difference. Bethany's more of a "direct relationship with the Maker, no chantry necessary" kind of Andrastian. She sees the Chantry as a corrupt institution fueled by the flaws of men by the endgame, in the same way an early Protestant would have seen the Catholic Church.

Bethany, more than anything, needs a partner who can challenge her beliefs by offering intelligent counterpoints, not simply a hunky knight in shining armor who pretty much shares all of her beliefs. That's where character development and the dynamism of a relationship comes from, especially in drama.

Uhh... what about that whole conversation with Anders where she says that there are good people in the chantry?

[CrimsonZephyr]

trobbins777 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Then you have no grasp of Bethany's character, she's almost as devout an andrastian as Sebastian, her beleif is at least as sincere.

That said i doubt a marriage would happen too, as i said before; the flirt between her and Sebastian and that of Merrill and Carver only seems to be a crush rather than something with a basis of real love.

Bethany is an Andrastian, but a Chantry loyalist? Not so much. There's a difference. Bethany's more of a "direct relationship with the Maker, no chantry necessary" kind of Andrastian. She sees the Chantry as a corrupt institution fueled by the flaws of men by the endgame, in the same way an early Protestant would have seen the Catholic Church.

Bethany, more than anything, needs a partner who can challenge her beliefs by offering intelligent counterpoints, not simply a hunky knight in shining armor who pretty much shares all of her beliefs. That's where character development and the dynamism of a relationship comes from, especially in drama.

Uhh... what about that whole conversation with Anders where she says that there are good people in the chantry?

Yes, she says there are good people in the Chantry, in a conversation where she essentially agrees with Act One!Anders' assessment that the Chantry as a whole is excessively dictatorial in silencing opposition, or even healthy debate. The emphasis was on individuals, not institutions, ergo she is not the same as Sebastian, who believes both the institution and the individuals to be benevolent. There's a subtle, but important difference there.

[trobbins777]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Then you have no grasp of Bethany's character, she's almost as devout an andrastian as Sebastian, her beleif is at least as sincere.

That said i doubt a marriage would happen too, as i said before; the flirt between her and Sebastian and that of Merrill and Carver only seems to be a crush rather than something with a basis of real love.

Bethany is an Andrastian, but a Chantry loyalist? Not so much. There's a difference. Bethany's more of a "direct relationship with the Maker, no chantry necessary" kind of Andrastian. She sees the Chantry as a corrupt institution fueled by the flaws of men by the endgame, in the same way an early Protestant would have seen the Catholic Church.

Bethany, more than anything, needs a partner who can challenge her beliefs by offering intelligent counterpoints, not simply a hunky knight in shining armor who pretty much shares all of her beliefs. That's where character development and the dynamism of a relationship comes from, especially in drama.

Uhh... what about that whole conversation with Anders where she says that there are good people in the chantry?

Yes, she says there are good people in the Chantry, in a conversation where she essentially agrees with Act One!Anders' assessment that the Chantry as a whole is excessively dictatorial in silencing opposition, or even healthy debate. The emphasis was on individuals, not institutions, ergo she is not the same as Sebastian, who believes both the institution and the individuals to be benevolent. There's a subtle, but important difference there.

Sebastian believes in the chant of light and is devoted to his service to both Elthina and Andraste. He says in act 3 that both the Templars and the Apostates in Kirkwall are despicable. He doesn't trust either of them, but at least sees the necessity of having templars. 

[CuriousArtemis]

So for the first time ever, I made a new Hawke and BETHANY LOOKED DIFFERENT.

She's adorable. I love her long, straight hair and bangs. Does anyone know what causes Bethany's (and Carver's) hair style and facial features to change? I know it's dependent on how Hawke is created, but what exactly triggers, for example, the hairstyle change?

[Sir Edric]

Skin tone, and face structer impacts most. Dunno exactly on which levels it does.

[TobiTobsen]

motomotogirl wrote...

So for the first time ever, I made a new Hawke and BETHANY LOOKED DIFFERENT.

She's adorable. I love her long, straight hair and bangs. Does anyone know what causes Bethany's (and Carver's) hair style and facial features to change? I know it's dependent on how Hawke is created, but what exactly triggers, for example, the hairstyle change?

To quote the Wiki:

"There are three base facial shapes that each family member can have. Hawkes using the default Hawke appearance or any of the first three presets will get the first head shape, Hawkes using the second three presets will get the second head shape, and Hawkes using the final three presets (or any modded presets past that) will get the third shape.

Each of the three head shapes has three variations - one with a pale skintone, one with a medium skintone, and one with a dark skintone, and each with a different hairstyle. Which of these variations is used by the game depends on Hawke's skintone; the first four skin tones will result in the light-skinned version of Bethany, the second four in the medium-skinned version, and the final four in the dark-skinned version. All versions of Bethany will have black hair."

Link to a picture of the different Bethanys and Carvers: images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110423115024/dragonage/images/c/ca/Bethany_Carver_Chart.jpg

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 18 octobre 2011 - 08:27 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Thanks, TobiTobsen, you're a peach! I'll know what to do next time if I want a certain Hawk sibling "look" I probably got "different" Bethany this time b/c I always play M!Hawke and I always, always start with the first "bald" preset face and build off that. But this time I began with a different preset.

I also started a F!Hawke, but evidently I chose one of the presets that gives "the usual" Bethany.

[Quething]

Oh, man, is that still up there? My wiki edits never stay up. I'm so proud

As far as the "how radical is Beth" discussion goes, here's a couple more of the dialogs I was talking about from Legacy. It's a bad day when Anders and another party member are arguing and I agree with Anders.

Anders: You know, we're a long way from the Circle. Down here, a mage could easily slip her leash.
Bethany: I'm not leashed, Anders. I allowed this.
Anders: You gave up, you mean. Threw your life away.
Bethany: I accept what I am and act accordingly. I can pretend to be miserable if you want, but I'm not.
Anders: You don't understand the stakes.
Bethany: Well it's a good thing you're here to carry the burden.

"I accept what I am and act accordingly."

"I accept what I am and act accordingly."

I find myself suddenly sympathizing with Justice's frustrated contempt for Orsino. That's an impressive level of internalized mage-loathing in just seven words, there. Not "I accept how the world works" or even "I accept how my life has gone." No, "I accept what I am."

Later, she can have the same argument with Hawke, after finishing the Malcolm's Will quest. She'll always say she wishes she'd joined the Circle sooner. Bad moment for pro-Templar Hawkes, as your only available responses are to challenge that idea. Snarky Hawke can get her to admit she misses being around her family, but the other two Hawkes get the Chantry line:

Jerk!Hawke: Maybe. You could disappear. Not go back.
Bethany: No. No, it feels... comfortable for now. I miss... so much, but not because I'm there.

A bit hedge-y, and you could say it's more about the ability to be out of the closet and around people like herself for the first time in her life than support for the Circle specifically. But Diplomatic Hawke gets outright dogma from her:

Beth: Sometimes I wonder why he gave up so much to try to make our lives normal.
Hawke: Father didn't want to segregate people because of magic.
Beth: Some people are different, and they can't help it.
Hawke: Everyone's different. We're better for it.
Beth: If it was only that easy.

Basically a direct mirror of her banter with Anders: Malcolm was wrong, mages are fundamentally Other and shouldn't be outside the Circle and part of the rest of the world as a result.

All this is independent of act, you get the same conversations with a post-Gallows save as one just after the Deep Roads. Ignoring the fact that they're all ignoring the issue of Beth's phylactery, that is a bird flat-out reveling in her cage. I can't even fathom how she gets from "act accordingly" to "magic is a gift from the Maker" - it's hard to see even in six years, forget what might be as little as six days. And remember, in Act 1 she's pretty pro-mage-freedom, so that would mean reversing her opinion twice.

On the other hand, there is one, lone, single line after the second set of demons are slain. When she repeats Malcolm's line and says that's what he taught her, she says "Even in the Gallows, I find strength in that." Which implies that the Gallows is a hard place to find strength or comfort. But that's just the one tiny implication in a whole DLC full of explicit pro-Circle pro-segregation rhetoric.

This is really damaging my pre-DLC argument for Beth being better off in the Circle because it matures her to the point where she's able to appreciate her family's effort to protect her.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Keep in mind, however, that if her family was discovered sheltering an apostate, her mother and sibling would have been strung up and hung by nightfall. Cullen admits that it was because she turned herself in that he was offering Hawke and Leandra mercy. And Legacy takes place before The Last Straw. She knows the Circle's not great, but what other option is there? Live as a hedge mage, like Anders? It's only when the Templars go completely off the deep end that she drops the dogma. There are plenty of rebels who are only involved once circumstances make all other options untenable. Not every rebel is a revolutionary, and that's not a bad thing.

When she's in the Circle, at least she's independent enough to fight for the lives of her fellow mages, regardless of what Hawke wants, whereas if she's a Warden, it's back to "big brother knows best."

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 octobre 2011 - 11:45 .

[dewayne31]

And i would like to add after the grand cleric is murder being that dlc is set before for the last straw. seb and beth's romance is dead...seb own words in the final chat with him. it's hard to look at these apostates and not see anders. that tell me he support the chantry he even he sided with you

Modifié par dewayne31, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:02 .

[Quething]

Except, she keeps saying the Circle is great. And Anders and Merrill seem to be doing fine, as Malcolm did for his entire life. There's a difference between not being brave enough to run away, and actually thinking running away would be wrong.

I think using the Last Straw as an argument is a bit unfair to Warden Beth. If Beth's in the Circle, she's right there when it all goes down; she knows the situation, knows both sides of the story, and is in a position to make that decision for herself. If Beth's a Warden, she shows up after the fighting starts, and has no perspective to work from other than Hawke's. She will give you some grief, but she doesn't know about Anders when she joins you, so I think it's fair that she ultimately trusts her only remaining family in lieu of contradicting evidence.

Plus, you know. The PC effect. I mean, both she and Carver will cheerfully lay down and die in the Deep Roads, even if Anders is right there suggesting another option, just because Hawke says so. Killing a few mages doesn't seem like that big a deal in comparison. XD