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[TobiTobsen]

Quething wrote...

This is really damaging my pre-DLC argument for Beth being better off in the Circle because it matures her to the point where she's able to appreciate her family's effort to protect her.

But it is maturing her.

All those DLC lines are pre The last Straw as far as we know. She thinks she is better off in the circle, together with other mages, where she is no burden for her family anymore. She had those thoughts her whole life. It's all over the place in act 1 that she thinks she would be better off in the circle and she seems to keep thinking that through act 2 and the DLC's, but there is always this little piece of doubt.

All of that changes, like Crimson said, in the moment when Meredith finally goes nuts. That's the moment where she understands why her family sacrificed so much to protect her, where she decides for herself that this madness is not what the Maker wanted when he gave her the gift of magic. She embraces the doubts she had about the circle, the chantry and her decision that it would be better for everybody if she would submit herself to the templars.

Without this mentality in Act 1 and 2 her final character development would only be half as awesome as it is now, if you ask me. She has come a long way and finally understands why her father did what he did, what her family did, and appreciates it.

Aw, man. It's late... I'm rambling. I hope you understand what I want to say ^^

Modifié par TobiTobsen, 19 octobre 2011 - 12:23 .

[Jackalope]

dewayne31 wrote...

i agree. that and the fact that choirboy says he cann't look at these apostates and not see anders. he has a narrow view of mages i think bethany ceased being a loyalist the minute the RoA was invoked

In defense of that, when you side with the mages he's pretty okay with that.  "Not every mage is Anders."  Which is the exact opposite statement.  So it's possible to view that as:

1. Hey, it's a Grey and Grey Morality thing.
2. This is one of those times where everyone just sides with Hawke if their Rival/Friendship is maxed.

[trobbins777]

can someone post a link to the banter between bethany and sebastian in MotA?

[dewayne31]

Jackalope wrote...

dewayne31 wrote...

i agree. that and the fact that choirboy says he cann't look at these apostates and not see anders. he has a narrow view of mages i think bethany ceased being a loyalist the minute the RoA was invoked

In defense of that, when you side with the mages he's pretty okay with that.  "Not every mage is Anders."  Which is the exact opposite statement.  So it's possible to view that as:

1. Hey, it's a Grey and Grey Morality thing.
2. This is one of those times where everyone just sides with Hawke if their Rival/Friendship is maxed.

I side with the mages alot and i never get him to say that. He always says he cann't see anders line.

[Quething]

I would argue that a choice made under duress is not truly a choice. If she only decides mages shouldn't be in a Circle when the Circle ceases to exist, she hasn't really decided mages don't belong in the Circle.

Her statement that she's tried so hard to see what Andraste saw, to understand why mages had to be locked up, doesn't really mesh with her firm statements that mages should be locked up all through Act II&III DLC. If she's been struggling with it, why does she sound so convinced? Why does she as much as say that Malcolm was wrong, that she is something ugly and unnatural and cursed? The way she delivers that line, and the content of it - "I accept what I am, and act accordingly." That's too deep, too profound a sentiment to coexist with any kind of "magic is a gift from the Maker" conviction. She's not questioning or struggling. She just... believes that. That she's somehow wrong and different and needs to be put away.

For her to go from that to "I can't believe there's anything wrong with me" in the space of a week, just because Meredith calls the Annulment? It simply doesn't make any kind of sense in any kind of rational human psychology. She's living in a Circle where people get made Tranquil when the wrong templar decides they're hot. And she knows it - she was mentoring Ella, remember. If she doesn't consider that evidence that the system is broken, if she can see those things and not think that's sufficient reason for Malcolm to have protected her, why would she consider the RoA to be? Both are dependent on the unique circumstances in Kirkwall. There's no rationalization that works for "raped or Tranquilled on a whim" that doesn't equally work for "RoA'd on a whim."

[Xilizhra]

Bad timing; I was about to ask the people here to give me reasons about why Bethany was good enough that I should try out my warrior and/or rogue, because I'm waffling between that and my mage.

Luckily, I can avoid most of this dialogue crap by not bringing Anders to Legacy (there's no room with Varric and Merrill anyway), but I don't know what I'll do with Assassin...

[jlb524]

Quething wrote...

Her statement that she's tried so hard to see what Andraste saw, to understand why mages had to be locked up, doesn't really mesh with her firm statements that mages should be locked up all through Act II&III DLC. If she's been struggling with it, why does she sound so convinced? Why does she as much as say that Malcolm was wrong, that she is something ugly and unnatural and cursed? The way she delivers that line, and the content of it - "I accept what I am, and act accordingly." That's too deep, too profound a sentiment to coexist with any kind of "magic is a gift from the Maker" conviction. She's not questioning or struggling. She just... believes that. That she's somehow wrong and different and needs to be put away.

Perhaps she's trying to convince herself in the Act 2/Act 3 DLC....the more convincing she sounds to others the better she gets at convincing herself.

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Bad timing; I was about to ask the people here to give me reasons about why Bethany was good enough that I should try out my warrior and/or rogue, because I'm waffling between that and my mage.

Luckily, I can avoid most of this dialogue crap by not bringing Anders to Legacy (there's no room with Varric and Merrill anyway), but I don't know what I'll do with Assassin...

Bethany has Haste.

/thread

(Honestly, though, it really is that simple. Haste is insanely OP. Add that she can throw in 1pt entropy dips for Horror and Torment and she's a better choice than Merrill, now that she's got Grav Ring too. Of course, Mage!Hawke is still better, but Hawke is always better; you're never going to justify bringing anyone along by comparing them to bringing Hawke instead.)

@jlb: I'm totally justifying it that way to myself in headcanon, certainly. And I definitely try to play Legacy early in Act II with a Circle Beth so I can make the transition feel a little more organic.

Modifié par Quething, 20 octobre 2011 - 12:38 .

[Xilizhra]

I more meant for story reasons, but no matter. I'm going to be seriously trying out my humorous, rather promiscuous rogue Hawke who, at first, really did just want to be rich.

Although I have a hard time justifying Legacy in Act 2, because a lot of the story elements in it fit a lot better with Act 3. I feel.

[Quething]

Well, for story reasons either you want to see what Bethany has to say or you don't. I think it makes sense to bring her along for Legacy because she's under attack too; most rogue/warrior Hawkes seem to be fairly protective of Beth, and if someone you're protective of is having attempts made on their life you're going to want them where you can see them until you've resolved the issue. Also, if you never get to see your sister and for once she actually has the chance to hang out with you, why wouldn't you jump at it? (That works on both a story and meta level.)

MotA is more difficult to justify, but the story sort of does it for you in that case. You didn't bring Bethany. She just happened to be at the party when you got there, and the Duke made you team up. Which actually makes sense; we know from Malcolm and the Landsmeet that nobles like to borrow mages for parties, and as an "exemplary" mage Beth is among the most likely to get permission to go. Justifying her presence as a Warden (or Carver's presence ever) is a little trickier.

I like Legacy a bit after All that Remains for main!Hawke. After you talk to Malcolm's shade, if Leandra is dead, Bethany tells Hawke that she's so much like him, even if she isn't a mage; "don't lose that." Which is something main!Hawke needs to hear, from one of the only people she'd actually hear it from, and lets me shift her back to snarky from the aggressive she takes up during that quest.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, I definitely want to hear what Bethany has to say. And the MotA justification actually works quite well; I'll need to try that out, really.

[jlb524]

Quething wrote...

@jlb: I'm totally justifying it that way to myself in headcanon, certainly. And I definitely try to play Legacy early in Act II with a Circle Beth so I can make the transition feel a little more organic.

Yeah, I'll probably do Legacy in Act 2 with my current rogue Hawke for this reason, now that I know!  Which is half the battle, they say.

Quething wrote...

I like Legacy a bit after All that Remains for main!Hawke. After you talk to Malcolm's shade, if Leandra is dead, Bethany tells Hawke that she's so much like him, even if she isn't a mage; "don't lose that." Which is something main!Hawke needs to hear, from one of the only people she'd actually hear it from, and lets me shift her back to snarky from the aggressive she takes up during that quest.

That is a nice touch.

And, how awful is it that the Carta are trying to kill both Hawke and Bethany shortly after Leandra's death?

The poor family can't catch a break 

Modifié par jlb524, 20 octobre 2011 - 02:17 .

[TobiTobsen]

Too bad Jennifer Hepler isn't posting on these boards. We need someone to enlighten us, Quething.

It has to make some sense. At least that's what I hope

[dewayne31]

well i hope if there is exp for da2 which i believe there is. i hope she is a full companion

[jlb524]

dewayne31 wrote...

well i hope if there is exp for da2 which i believe there is. i hope she is a full companion

If there is an expansion and if the DA2 companions are in it, then I'd imagine Bethany would be a full companion option as well as the others that survived your playthrough.  

[Quething]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Too bad Jennifer Hepler isn't posting on these boards. We need someone to enlighten us, Quething.

It has to make some sense. At least that's what I hope

Haha, now you're talking. Can we say her name in a mirror three times or something?


Unrelated topic: I've been ficcing a universe where Carver survives, because a living character is significantly more interesting to me than a dead one, and it's raised a couple of interesting questions. The first is just a general sense of curiosity (since the Hawke in the story is a warrior): supposing Hawke is a mage, how would Bethany's personality and relationship to her sister differ? We get that brief mention in the Codex that she always sort of envied her older sibling's comfort and facility with magic, but I can't imagine her ever being the same kind of frustrated and competitive that Carver is. She wouldn't exactly be the Bethany we know, either, though, because the 'guilt' of the family's constant secrecy and migration would be shared between her and Hawke, and I think having someone other than Malcolm to share her magic with would have helped her to embrace it a little more as a gift.

The second is more explicit to the story: how do Beth and Carver actually get along? We know he was kind of a dick when they were younger, nailing her braid to the bed and all. We can probably assume he resents her a little, in much the way he resents mage!Hawke, for the special treatment she got from Malcolm and the way the family sort of rallies around her out of necessity. (I suspect a lot of her guilt, actually, is a result of his resentment, and to some degree vice versa.) He's probably also pretty protective of her. But on a day-to-day basis, how would they interact? Are they crazy close like twins can be, able to finish each other's sentences if they were so inclined? Do they fight constantly? Is he the one person she'll completely assert herself around and fight back against, or is he, like Hawke, the one person she'll contradict least?

And does Hawke's class change the dynamic at all? Carver would also be a different person if Hawke's not a mage, though probably less so than Beth with a mage!Hawke, which could make him treat Beth differently. I think he'd resent mages a bit less if he didn't have that to blame for his jealousy.

Thus, I'm leaning toward a blue Hawke/Friend Carver sort of dynamic myself, at least for them as adults - she's basically sweet to him but occasionally teases, he's pretty snarky but not usually mean about it - but I'm not totally sure it fits.

[Xilizhra]

We get that brief mention in the Codex that she always sort of envied her older sibling's comfort and facility with magic, but I can't imagine her ever being the same kind of frustrated and competitive that Carver is. She wouldn't exactly be the Bethany we know, either, though, because the 'guilt' of the family's constant secrecy and migration would be shared between her and Hawke, and I think having someone other than Malcolm to share her magic with would have helped her to embrace it a little more as a gift.

I've been wondering about this myself, especially when I've been considering doing a story where Bethany survives instead of Carver... I do think it'd be quite nice for them to have something to share, and Bethany would be feeling less isolated.

[jlb524]

Quething wrote...
The first is just a general sense of curiosity (since the Hawke in the story is a warrior): supposing Hawke is a mage, how would Bethany's personality and relationship to her sister differ? We get that brief mention in the Codex that she always sort of envied her older sibling's comfort and facility with magic, but I can't imagine her ever being the same kind of frustrated and competitive that Carver is. She wouldn't exactly be the Bethany we know, either, though, because the 'guilt' of the family's constant secrecy and migration would be shared between her and Hawke, and I think having someone other than Malcolm to share her magic with would have helped her to embrace it a little more as a gift.

Interestingly, Hawke being a mage sort of tips the balance a bit, and the majority of the family are now mages (minus Leandra and Carver).

I think that situation would suck worse for Carver (which is perhaps part of the reason why he is the way he is with a Mage!Hawke).  

I think Bethany would still feel guilty about inconveniencing the other two members of her family but probably not as guilty since she's not the only child that has magic.

Quething wrote...
The second is more explicit to the story: how do Beth and Carver actually get along? We know he was kind of a dick when they were younger, nailing her braid to the bed and all. We can probably assume he resents her a little, in much the way he resents mage!Hawke, for the special treatment she got from Malcolm and the way the family sort of rallies around her out of necessity. (I suspect a lot of her guilt, actually, is a result of his resentment, and to some degree vice versa.) He's probably also pretty protective of her. But on a day-to-day basis, how would they interact? Are they crazy close like twins can be, able to finish each other's sentences if they were so inclined? Do they fight constantly? Is he the one person she'll completely assert herself around and fight back against, or is he, like Hawke, the one person she'll contradict least?

We really only see them interact in the very beginning so it's hard to say.

Bethany definitely misses him when he dies.  She mentions going to the Chantry to set candles out for him, for instance.  It didn't feel like they were super close, though.  I'd guess they teased each other often and I could see Bethany fighting back if he, let's say, pulled a prank on her.  Or was just being dickish.

Quething wrote...
And does Hawke's class change the dynamic at all? Carver would also be a different person if Hawke's not a mage, though probably less so than Beth with a mage!Hawke, which could make him treat Beth differently. I think he'd resent mages a bit less if he didn't have that to blame for his jealousy.

Thus, I'm leaning toward a blue Hawke/Friend Carver sort of dynamic myself, at least for them as adults - she's basically sweet to him but occasionally teases, he's pretty snarky but not usually mean about it - but I'm not totally sure it fits.

Yeah, Carver wouldn't be surrounded by mages if Hawke is a warrior/rogue.  I'd say that would be better for him and his relationship with Hawke would be closer without as much resentment.  He'd have another sibling he could relate to in regards to having to pick up and move around all the time b/c of the family mages.

[trobbins777]

Is there any Bethany/Sebastian banter in MotA? I keep looking for it but i can't find any...

[dewayne31]

trobbins777 wrote...

Is there any Bethany/Sebastian banter in MotA? I keep looking for it but i can't find any...

i would look on youtube. but i'm not sure there is any.

[TobiTobsen]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah, Carver wouldn't be surrounded by mages if Hawke is a warrior/rogue.  I'd say that would be better for him and his relationship with Hawke would be closer without as much resentment.  He'd have another sibling he could relate to in regards to having to pick up and move around all the time b/c of the family mages.

Isn't the codex stating that Hawke has always more skill, no matter if he is a fighter or a mage, than the other sibling with that "profession"?

I could see Carver resenting a warrior Hawke just as he resents a mage Hawke, because in that case he is not unique and still gets outmatched by his older sibling, who masters the art of combat with more ease.

[Quething]

I'm not sure. Carver frames his jealousy largely as "I was never allowed to excel, because that might expose you. I could have been so much more, if you weren't holding me back." Warrior/rogue Hawke, on the other hand, excels like crazy, draws all kinds of attention to herself, and basically proves that completely wrong. And his one personal quest, about finding his namesake, puts a lot of emphasis on him seeing, for the first time in his life, that his father actually valued warriors, that the people he cares about can see a nonmage like him as someone important and worthy who can contribute equally to the family. Which he would have known his whole life, if he could see it in Hawke.

I think he'd still be a little jealous and resentful, because he does want to be skilled and important and he would still be in Hawke's shadow. But I think he'd see magic very differently, and not look at it as a burden that holds him back. And we do get some hints of a closer affection between he and a nonmage Hawke; in the intro, his line "Why are you looking at us, we've been running since Ostagar" is defending his older sibling as much as himself, and all his ambient barks are polite, supportive stuff like "I'll keep watch if you need to rest for a minute." I think, if nothing else, they bonded pretty tightly at Ostagar.

Actually that could be an interesting thing to explore too. If Carver and Hawke come back from the war after weeks of sleeping back-to-back and relying on each other in a world of strangers, betrayers and darkspawn, that can't possibly do anything but aggravate Bethany's already strong sense of isolation as the odd one out in the family.

[Vlad_Dracul]

dewayne31 wrote...

trobbins777 wrote...

Is there any Bethany/Sebastian banter in MotA? I keep looking for it but i can't find any...

i would look on youtube. but i'm not sure there is any.

<3
There is:



Bethastian is obvious couple

[Nyreen]

What's better for Bethany? Grey Wardens or Circle, and why? First playthrough I made her a Warden, because I'd thought that'd be better than life in a virtual prison. Now I'm not really sure...

[PrinceLionheart]

Celestina wrote...

What's better for Bethany? Grey Wardens or Circle, and why? First playthrough I made her a Warden, because I'd thought that'd be better than life in a virtual prison. Now I'm not really sure...

Banter wise, Bethany is more at peace/happy if she becomes a member of the circle. Unlike Carver, she doesn't have a lot of pent up aggression and a desperate need of "defining" herself away from her family (which is why Carver seems to mature more as a grey warden).