1473 Antworten in diesem Thema

[thats1evildude]

RampantAndroid wrote...

Cannot tell if serious.

CrimsonZephyr has some funny ideas about morality. Just keep moving and don't make eye contact.

[CrimsonZephyr]

RampantAndroid wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Why not just burn the bodies up on Sundermount. Blame it on the Dalish.

Merrill and her clan dies, Bethany's safe, the Templars get their jollies in, and everyone goes home happy. It's a win-win.

Cannot tell if serious.

Totally serious. A too-dumb-to-live Dalish clan, their First, and their Keeper are all killed, a completely sane mage is spared from the Circle, some Templars die, and others kill some apostates. I don't see anything wrong with this pict --

Oh, right, Merrill is a cutie. Don't let those eyes fool you. She's a ****** in sheep's clothing. You're better than that.

[Quething]

The rest of it aside, killing Cullen and dumping the bodies in Darktown isn't a big deal. Two templars really isn't enough to take down a single normal mage. Bethany's not a normal mage to begin with (gameplay-wise she's as effective as a blood mage and an abomination, and in Legacy Circle!Beth comments on being notably more powerful than her peers), and Hawke just took down an ancient rock wraith abomination thing. It will be a while before it's even investigated (it's not like the Order was too vigorous about looking into Kerras' death).

Now, Hawke will have to leave Kirkwall. They'd get a few day's grace, but the way Cullen talks it's obvious that somebody actively narced out Beth (my money's on Meeran, if he's alive), so more templars will show eventually. And that's the real sticking point. Beth's got this sort of martyr issue where she's convinced she's singlehandedly destroying her family's lives, and she refuses to keep doing that, so once she's caught she wants to stay caught. This issue comes, in large part, from Leandra, who... I don't really know how to categorize what Leandra's damage is, but anyway she's really fixated on being in Kirkwall and dreaming of nobility as well, so the pressure's really on Beth to not force the family to move again by fighting back. So she begs Hawke not to.

Why Hawke is forced to respect that is beyond me, though, and the game would have been better served to have Beth taken while Hawke is still underground.

(Huh. Speaking of Merrill, it's a bit odd, the overlap between posters who think they should get to conk Beth on the head and drag her out of Kirkwall against her wishes in front of Cullen, because her safety is more important than her autonomy, and posters who think it's abhorrent to side with Marethari in her attempts to undermine Merrill's demon compact, because Merrill's autonomy is more important than her safety.)

Bearbeitet von Quething, 14 Januar 2012 - 04:47 .

[RampantAndroid]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Totally serious. A too-dumb-to-live Dalish clan, their First, and their Keeper are all killed, a completely sane mage is spared from the Circle, some Templars die, and others kill some apostates. I don't see anything wrong with this pict --

Oh, right, Merrill is a cutie. Don't let those eyes fool you. She's a ****** in sheep's clothing. You're better than that.

Merril is one of the people in DA2 that annoys me, actually. It's funny...I sided with the mages, would do it every play through...and yet Anders and Merril I'd love to just tell to shove off and leave me alone. I've no use for either of them. But I also don't want to deal with Carver, so my next playthrough will be a ranger (previous being 2 handed warrior) and so siding with the mages means siding with family....

All that said, the dalish just confuse me. In ME, you have the quarians. In DA you have the dalish. Does bioware just really like the Palestineans? People complaining about having no home? Because Bioware, here's a hint: your stories have worn too thin. You need some fresh ideas, and new script writers.

[Quething]

?

Quarians are Roma, if anything. Elves have a vague amalgamation of Manifest Destiny era First Nations and colonial Africa going. Don't know where you're getting Palestine, the geth/quarian thing doesn't map to anything other than maybe Frankenstein. Closest thing to the Middle East in either franchise is the Qunari, really, but the Arishok is no Saladin.

On an on-topic note, just replayed the endgame and Beth really does sound like quite the wholehearted pro-mage freedom fighter in her dialog there. And it makes me really, really want some good fic or something getting her from the Legacy/MotA dialog to that point, cuz wow, what a turnaroud o.O And also, makes me wish you could get her in the courtyard if you templar-side, because given how the narration changes perspective based on Hawke's allegiance (note particularly how the loading screens talk about Meredith and Orsino) I bet she'd have some interesting anti-mage stuff to contrast her pro-mage rhetoric with.

[PrinceLionheart]

RampantAndroid wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

At least in the tower she's nearer family. But why wouldn't hawke kill the templars taking her away in Act 1, then run with Bethany to somewhere else?

Because of Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Hawke isn't a One (Wo)Man Army. By doing so, Hawke would put both Bethany and Leandra at risk by causing a scene. And I'm going to make an assumption that all the Templars at that point were aware of Bethany's presence. Kill a templar, and you're officially a target of the chantry/templars in every town you go to.

/me seems to remember killing plenty of templars before the final fight. Often groups of them no less.

As for the explanation of the templars descending on Hawke...gee, let's see. Kill templays in home. Hide bodies. Leave. Bodies found after Hawke and family left. Huh.

There'd also be no way to continue the story at that point.

Cullen is the Knight Captain, killing him would've made Hawke both a criminal on the run from the Chantry and the City Guard. I'm sorry, but there is no logical way Hawke would've walked out of that situation with Bethany without instigating a brawl, resulting in the rest of the templars descending on them.

[CrimsonZephyr]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

At least in the tower she's nearer family. But why wouldn't hawke kill the templars taking her away in Act 1, then run with Bethany to somewhere else?

Because of Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Hawke isn't a One (Wo)Man Army. By doing so, Hawke would put both Bethany and Leandra at risk by causing a scene. And I'm going to make an assumption that all the Templars at that point were aware of Bethany's presence. Kill a templar, and you're officially a target of the chantry/templars in every town you go to.

/me seems to remember killing plenty of templars before the final fight. Often groups of them no less.

As for the explanation of the templars descending on Hawke...gee, let's see. Kill templays in home. Hide bodies. Leave. Bodies found after Hawke and family left. Huh.

There'd also be no way to continue the story at that point.

Cullen is the Knight Captain, killing him would've made Hawke both a criminal on the run from the Chantry and the City Guard. I'm sorry, but there is no logical way Hawke would've walked out of that situation with Bethany without instigating a brawl, resulting in the rest of the templars descending on them.

Kill Cullen, strip his armor, burn his body. No one would realize until much later. These are the too-dumb-to-see-a-mage-in-front-of-them Kirkwall templars. It's not that hard.

[PrinceLionheart]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

At least in the tower she's nearer family. But why wouldn't hawke kill the templars taking her away in Act 1, then run with Bethany to somewhere else?

Because of Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Hawke isn't a One (Wo)Man Army. By doing so, Hawke would put both Bethany and Leandra at risk by causing a scene. And I'm going to make an assumption that all the Templars at that point were aware of Bethany's presence. Kill a templar, and you're officially a target of the chantry/templars in every town you go to.

/me seems to remember killing plenty of templars before the final fight. Often groups of them no less.

As for the explanation of the templars descending on Hawke...gee, let's see. Kill templays in home. Hide bodies. Leave. Bodies found after Hawke and family left. Huh.

There'd also be no way to continue the story at that point.

Cullen is the Knight Captain, killing him would've made Hawke both a criminal on the run from the Chantry and the City Guard. I'm sorry, but there is no logical way Hawke would've walked out of that situation with Bethany without instigating a brawl, resulting in the rest of the templars descending on them.

Kill Cullen, strip his armor, burn his body. No one would realize until much later. These are the too-dumb-to-see-a-mage-in-front-of-them Kirkwall templars. It's not that hard.

No one would notice that Knight Captain went missing?

[CrimsonZephyr]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

PrinceLionheart wrote...

RampantAndroid wrote...

At least in the tower she's nearer family. But why wouldn't hawke kill the templars taking her away in Act 1, then run with Bethany to somewhere else?

Because of Gameplay and Story Segregation.

Hawke isn't a One (Wo)Man Army. By doing so, Hawke would put both Bethany and Leandra at risk by causing a scene. And I'm going to make an assumption that all the Templars at that point were aware of Bethany's presence. Kill a templar, and you're officially a target of the chantry/templars in every town you go to.

/me seems to remember killing plenty of templars before the final fight. Often groups of them no less.

As for the explanation of the templars descending on Hawke...gee, let's see. Kill templays in home. Hide bodies. Leave. Bodies found after Hawke and family left. Huh.

There'd also be no way to continue the story at that point.

Cullen is the Knight Captain, killing him would've made Hawke both a criminal on the run from the Chantry and the City Guard. I'm sorry, but there is no logical way Hawke would've walked out of that situation with Bethany without instigating a brawl, resulting in the rest of the templars descending on them.

Kill Cullen, strip his armor, burn his body. No one would realize until much later. These are the too-dumb-to-see-a-mage-in-front-of-them Kirkwall templars. It's not that hard.

No one would notice that Knight Captain went missing?

If the Knight-Captain is the standard, then no, likely not.

[RampantAndroid]

Yeah..."hey, we need money to keep me from the circle"
Walk up templars to talk to them, with Bethany in tow.

At least with Isabela, she turns and doesn't enter the Qunari area. Why don't Bethany/Anders/Merril do the same?

[Xilizhra]

RampantAndroid wrote...

Yeah..."hey, we need money to keep me from the circle"
Walk up templars to talk to them, with Bethany in tow.

At least with Isabela, she turns and doesn't enter the Qunari area. Why don't Bethany/Anders/Merril do the same?

The qunari compound is pretty one-note and only a few plot conversations happen there. Also only in the first two acts. The Gallows has much more diversity.

(Huh. Speaking of Merrill, it's a bit odd, the overlap between posters who think they should get to conk Beth on the head and drag her out of Kirkwall against her wishes in front of Cullen, because her safety is more important than her autonomy, and posters who think it's abhorrent to side with Marethari in her attempts to undermine Merrill's demon compact, because Merrill's autonomy is more important than her safety.)

Count me out of that number. I believe that killing Cullen and kidnapping Bethany is wholly unfeasible given the situation.

Bearbeitet von Xilizhra, 16 Januar 2012 - 10:04 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

Some posters from the turkey







And a creepier joke...

[Quething]

Xilizhra wrote...

Count me out of that number. I believe that killing Cullen and kidnapping Bethany is wholly unfeasible given the situation.

Eh, only if you care about staying in Kirkwall. I can't see any reason why Hawke should. There are a lot of bad game design decisions in DA2 but that's among the worst - they really give you no reason to like the city or care to protect it and an awful lot of reasons to hate it, and then they stick you on a railroad plot that forces you to act like it's the home you love and want.

Anyway, you're saying it's not feasable, rather than it's not moral?

[PrinceLionheart]

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Count me out of that number. I believe that killing Cullen and kidnapping Bethany is wholly unfeasible given the situation.

Eh, only if you care about staying in Kirkwall. I can't see any reason why Hawke should.

Because his Mother wants to. And Bethany doesn't want to run any more either. Yeah, it sucks that Bethany got sent to the circle, but what you're suggesting is enforcing the other alternative on Bethany and Leandra, which neither wants.

[Quething]

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Leandra in that situation, since she forced Kirkwall on the kids in the first place (which none of them wanted). Beth's opinion is more complex but it's not about wanting to stay in Kirkwall or go to the Circle per se, it's about not wanting Hawke and Leandra to have to run again. If they want to do so in order to protect her, that's their choice to make, and if she feels bad about it anyway, at least it's because she can feel because she hasn't been made Tranquil.

(And Leandra is devastated by the loss of Beth to the templars, and protests her departure; if Hawke were to fight Leandra wouldn't object in the least. She'd quietly and perhaps passive-aggressively guilt trip Hawke and Bethany later once they were safe and on the move again, of course, but it's not like she's not already doing that already from the minute we meet her, so what difference does that make, right.)

Besides, while I agree that wanting to make Leandra or Beth happy is a perfectly legit motivation for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall, it's not reason for Hawke to want to stay in Kirkwall. If Hawke's staying for them she's staying because she wants to do right by them, not because she has any affection for the city herself. So her even staying past Leandra's death is pretty much Because The Plot Dictates unless she's in love with Anders or Beth's in the Circle; forget assuming the responsibilities implied but not demanded by the Champion title.

(Some Hawkes may like being nobles, of course, and others might be, like Beth, simply tired of running, or whatever, but those are things the players have to deliberately bring to the table themselves, because the game offers nothing.)

Bearbeitet von Quething, 16 Januar 2012 - 08:48 .

[Xilizhra]

Quething wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Count me out of that number. I believe that killing Cullen and kidnapping Bethany is wholly unfeasible given the situation.

Eh, only if you care about staying in Kirkwall. I can't see any reason why Hawke should. There are a lot of bad game design decisions in DA2 but that's among the worst - they really give you no reason to like the city or care to protect it and an awful lot of reasons to hate it, and then they stick you on a railroad plot that forces you to act like it's the home you love and want.

Anyway, you're saying it's not feasable, rather than it's not moral?

The difference between situations with Bethany and Merrill is that I firmly believe Merrill is right. It's not just about her agency, but the fact that I agree with her, that Marethari is a useless lodestone, and that she needs to see this through in general. With Bethany... well, I will say that her begging me to not do anything was the tiebreaker. If she hadn't, I probably would have attacked Cullen. As it stands, though, I don't want to have to fight Bethany figuratively, the templars literally, and then the city as a whole when trying to flee yet again.

[TEWR]

Xilizhra wrote...

Count me out of that number. I believe that killing Cullen and kidnapping Bethany is wholly unfeasible given the situation.

Same here. I will never agree that Hawke should've killed the Templars just to keep Bethany out of the Circle. It's Bethany's decision, and despite how much I disagree with it I won't fight it. However, I did roleplay Tobias Hawke to vow to do whatever he could to protect her while she's there, from rooting out the bad Templars like Alrik to visiting her constantly -- at least until the Viscount called on him, though I do think the game should've had visits with her there -- and anything else he could do.

However, I do think that the scene where it happens showing Cullen and one other Templar is one of the worst possible scenes ever. There are only two Templars there, so I can understand why people feel the way they do.

Given Meredith's reputation as Knight-Commander and how strict her measures have become coupled with the types of Templars in her ranks, I expected 50 Templars led by Meredith, Cullen, Thrask, and Orsino there.

At least then the plot would've given a believable reason that keeps in line with the nature of Kirkwall's Templars why Hawke can't stop them from taking her. There's an army outside of Hawke's hovel.

Quething wrote...

Eh, only if you care about staying in Kirkwall. I can't see any reason why Hawke should. There are a lot of bad game design decisions in DA2 but that's among the worst - they really give you no reason to like the city or care to protect it and an awful lot of reasons to hate it, and then they stick you on a railroad plot that forces you to act like it's the home you love and want.

Anyway, you're saying it's not feasable, rather than it's not moral?

The stress of running away would probably make Bethany hate herself even more -- possibly to the point of severe depression -- and possibly cause Leandra to die from a heart attack.

She could barely keep running from the Darkspawn. She wouldn't be able to run from the Templars for very long.

[Quething]

Eh. Given what we know the history of the Hawke family to be, I think Leandra's stronger than that - there's just no way her marriage to Malcolm and the subsequent successful raising of at least one safe apostate would have been able to happen otherwise. Forcing her focus back onto her surviving children and away from her weird destructive pipe dream might actually be the healthiest thing for her, and wake up that part of her that was actually a good mother.

Could easily go the other way too, of course, there's no way to know since we're never given the option to find out. But I'm skeptical that Hawke could possibly have the sophistication in the science of human psychology to anticipate or worry about either Beth or Leandra's reactions like that anyway, particularly given how close they are to her - and again, even if she did, it'd still be quite reasonable for her to think those risks were still lesser evils or less likely or both than those of the Kirkwall Circle.

[Revan654]

Dragon Age II/Dragon Age III

BioWare also said that the Male Human Noble Warden will marry Bethany Hawke if the Warden doesn't marry Anora in the Dragon Age: Origins event, Bethany Hawke will meet the Male Human Noble Warden in that time where Hawke(her brother), King Alistair, Varric and Isabella went through mines.

Someone posted this info awhile back on a Board. Is their any truth to this Info or is it 100% False Information?

[Knight of Dane]

As long as there isn't a legit source it's just a rumor.

Besides, why would bioware go from "The Wardun and Champiun has disappeared(!!!)" to "If human male, shank Beth."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't have a problem with that in principle, in fact in the case of my Human Noble Warden I think they'd get along well but what if The Male human noble romanced Leliana or disappeared with Morrigan? Or even didn't disappear with Morrigan, since she's supposedly going to have a part to play later.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Ugh, I hope this isn't true. That'll turn Dragon Age into the Star Wars Expanded Universe, where only the main characters marry and boink each other, or as I like to call it, "The Skywalker family does everything and everyone." It makes the fictional universe seems smaller. It seems very contrived, especially since the human noble warden could be hanging out with Morrigan and their son.

[Lazy Jer]

Quething wrote...

I don't have a lot of sympathy for Leandra in that situation, since she forced Kirkwall on the kids in the first place (which none of them wanted). Beth's opinion is more complex but it's not about wanting to stay in Kirkwall or go to the Circle per se, it's about not wanting Hawke and Leandra to have to run again. If they want to do so in order to protect her, that's their choice to make, and if she feels bad about it anyway, at least it's because she can feel because she hasn't been made Tranquil.

I didn't read that so much as that Leandra forced Kirkwall on them as much as that they didn't have anywhere else really to go.  The Free Marches appear to have been closer to Ferelden then Orlais or Rivane, there was family there and was supposed to have been an estate.

[PrinceLionheart]

Revan654 wrote...

Dragon Age II/Dragon Age III

BioWare also said that the Male Human Noble Warden will marry Bethany Hawke if the Warden doesn't marry Anora in the Dragon Age: Origins event, Bethany Hawke will meet the Male Human Noble Warden in that time where Hawke(her brother), King Alistair, Varric and Isabella went through mines.

Someone posted this info awhile back on a Board. Is their any truth to this Info or is it 100% False Information?

Is there a link to the original post? Would be interesting if true (and I wouldn't be against it). But internet hearsay is almost never correct.