53 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Considering the treatment they experienced at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed, why wouldn't the elves leave the Denerim alienage? There are certainly plenty of refugees who have had to abandon their homes in the wake of the darkspawn armies destroying everything in their path, why wouldn't the elves simply try to make their own home where they wouldn't have to deal with the abuse? A new home that could act as a beacon for the elves living in alienages across Thedas, like the Orlesian Alienage that's terribly cramped and overcrowded. An elven Warden could even become Teyrn of Gwaren, and Gwaren under an elf would certainly prove to be an alternative to living out in a ghetto in a city where virtually no one respects you and thinks you're a second class citizen. The Dalish are even awarded the Hinterlands (up to and including Ostagar) if they aid against the Blight. Wouldn't many elves want to make an exodus to an elven Teyrn lead Gwaren or the Hinterlands? Why remain in the alienage instead of forging a new home of their own elsewhere?

[sylvanaerie]

They tried that once before...in the Dales. We all saw what happened with that.

[LobselVith8]

sylvanaerie wrote...

They tried that once before...in the Dales. We all saw what happened with that.

True, but living in the alienage is a hard life, especially when the elves are at the whim of someone like Bann Vaughan. There's no telling whether the next Bann will be any better, and unless Alistair is chosen to be King, elves will still be at the same place they are before the Blight. I'm surprised there isn't a huge exodus for the Hinterlands or even for Gwaren under an elven Teyrn.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 septembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Nadiasama]

A lot of the alienage elves seem to be experiencing a type of Stockholm syndrome. They are comfortable in their lives and don't believe there is anything better for them on the outside (like how the Dalish are savages who have no real home and that Orlais is worst) so they stay where they are. They consider things that Bann Vaughan do the norm for them and trying to stand up against it would just cause more problems. In the City-Elf origin I got that sense from everyone when they were describing your mother as a bit of a trouble maker and you too to some extent.

[Corker]

I am getting a little stabby over here, because I keep reading the OP's question and I keep hearing, "Why do those poor people insist on being poor? They should just leave the slums and be happy somewhere better." And it just doesn't work that way.

[Nadiasama]

I get what the OP is saying, its not about being poor per se but why would they stay and be oppressed. In a sense I believe it to be like how in post-Civil War US why some slaves didn't leave their former masters.

[Sarah1281]

Or how most blacks in the 1800s weren't willing to be shipped off to Liberia.

Edit: I just realized that might sound like I thought that they should have been willing which I don't because it was a really stupid idea to try and get every black person to move to Africa but the point is that while some were willing to go there others decided to stay in the US despite the hardship they faced.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 05 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Wulfram]

Mass elvish immigration to Gwaren would probably spark a rebellion by the human population pretty quickly.

[Addai]

Not all do. You see elven mercenaries (apostate mages, who are probably better at staying alive than others) and naturally there are the Dalish, including city elves who have fled to the Dalish. But people who grow up in a certain culture get used to it. It's where their homes and families are, and being poor and with few choices, what else are they supposed to do? It takes money, power, ambition, organization, and probably an army to go against the grain so thoroughly. See, many ghettoes in our own world. Try doing a YouTube search on the zabbaleen minority in Egypt, for instance.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 septembre 2010 - 10:22 .

[Maconbar]

This also has parallels in the Jewish experience in medieval times. They were generally confined to ghettos, periodically ravaged by programs and generally didn't leave a nation until they were expelled.



I am not certain that the Alienage elves would have the necessary skills to immediately thrive in the Hinterlands.

[tmp7704]

As the Alienage article in Codex points out, from city elves' standpoint the walls of alienages are just as much about keeping humans out as they are about keeping elves in. Yes, there is occasional Bann or another human troublemaker tresspassing there but it's less frequent than what they'd face leaving between humans. And moving to start some "brand new elf place" is bit of a pipe dream, considering all known, habitable land is pretty much claimed and whoever makes claim to it wouldn't just sit back and watch some elves come and try to take it as theirs.

[user5304792]

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.



A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.

[mousestalker]

Where would they go? The Alienage is known, and they have their family and friends. Without a specific destination in mind, why would they leave?



The way immigration by ethnic or religious groups generally works is that someone bold and adventurous goes to a new area, makes good and then starts sending for their relatives to help them out. Word spreads back home that the kid made good and more follow on their own. Where is this magical land of elven opportunity in Thedas?

[Elhanan]

mousestalker wrote...

Where would they go? The Alienage is known, and they have their family and friends. Without a specific destination in mind, why would they leave?

The way immigration by ethnic or religious groups generally works is that someone bold and adventurous goes to a new area, makes good and then starts sending for their relatives to help them out. Word spreads back home that the kid made good and more follow on their own. Where is this magical land of elven opportunity in Thedas?

The Grand Isle of Keebler; making cookies for the Qun since the last Blight....

[sylvanaerie]

Elhanan wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Where would they go? The Alienage is known, and they have their family and friends. Without a specific destination in mind, why would they leave?

The way immigration by ethnic or religious groups generally works is that someone bold and adventurous goes to a new area, makes good and then starts sending for their relatives to help them out. Word spreads back home that the kid made good and more follow on their own. Where is this magical land of elven opportunity in Thedas?

The Grand Isle of Keebler; making cookies for the Qun since the last Blight....

This made me giggle !

[BlueMew]

Well, many of the city elves also have a strange arrogance. They prefer to be among their own with their intermarriages and their keep-the-species-from-dying out breeding programmes. In a weird way they are as conservative as nobles, it seems.

[Sarah1281]

BlueMew wrote...

Well, many of the city elves also have a strange arrogance. They prefer to be among their own with their intermarriages and their keep-the-species-from-dying out breeding programmes. In a weird way they are as conservative as nobles, it seems.

I don't blame them for this. If they don't do this, then they are taking risks with the perpetuation of their species. Human + elf= human baby which isn't good for the elf species.

[BlueMew]

Sarah1281 wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Well, many of the city elves also have a strange arrogance. They prefer to be among their own with their intermarriages and their keep-the-species-from-dying out breeding programmes. In a weird way they are as conservative as nobles, it seems.

I don't blame them for this. If they don't do this, then they are taking risks with the perpetuation of their species. Human + elf= human baby which isn't good for the elf species.

I just mean that they do the same as noble families. They both prefer to stick together, which might be a reasonfor elves to remain in the alienage, since they have the things they consider important (elves making more elves...) right there.

Blame is a big word, but I can so very well imagine that there is more to life than breeding. Ahhh, good that medieval times are over IRL.

[Obadiah]

LobselVith8 wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

They tried that once before...in the Dales. We all saw what happened with that.

True, but living in the alienage is a hard life, especially when the elves are at the whim of someone like Bann Vaughan. There's no telling whether the next Bann will be any better, and unless Alistair is chosen to be King, elves will still be at the same place they are before the Blight. I'm surprised there isn't a huge exodus for the Hinterlands or even for Gwaren under an elven Teyrn.

I'm guessing they're insitutionalized, like the castless dwarves of Orzammar. As crappy as their lives are, they know what they have and are afraid of risking it all for a better one.

[Sarah1281]

Not to mention they wouldn't know enough about the Surface/other possibly more elf-friendly lands to know for sure that it WOULD be a better life.

[TJPags]

Where they gonna go?



It's easy to say "move out", but travel is dangerous and takes a long time, they don't exactly have a lot of money to purchase food and other supplies for the journey. It's also not easy for someone from a city to go live in the woods. Drop most city people into the woods, and they're not going to survive very long.

[termokanden]

Disclaimer: This is not directed at any specific person in this thread 

Why are you (most likely) still stuck in your boring middle-class neighborhood doing what other people are telling you and pointlessly voting for politicians that just don't care?

It's human (/elvish) nature. Most people (although they might complain) accept their place in life and try to make the most of it. There is a lot of uncertainty in anything else.

[Sarah1281]

But there is a good chance that our lives are better than the lives of those in the Alienage. No one thinks that the elves should move for the sake of moving or because Denerim is boring but rather because of how much life sucks for them.

[OldMan91]

There's also the change of ending up poor somewhere else. According to one of the families leaving the Denerim alienage, it costs a great deal of money to simply leave and go to another alienage. And raising a family in the wilderness or in a farm is very costly and time consuming, not to mention dangerous because of bandit attacks and such (and good luck trying to call the nearest garrison to help you, an elf and your elven family).

The Dalish aren't an ideal destination either. Wondering around Ferelden, hunting and hiding, living with a great deal of uncertainty, always wary of any nearby human populations and vigilant that they do not take the pitchforks and torches out.

The ideal situation would be to recover the Dales.