53 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

The dales are just ruins at this point. Nothing exceptional, and likely owned by someone who doesn't exactly care to give the land up.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Corker wrote...

I am getting a little stabby over here, because I keep reading the OP's question and I keep hearing, "Why do those poor people insist on being poor? They should just leave the slums and be happy somewhere better." And it just doesn't work that way.[/quote]

I wasn't talking about the social conditions of the alienage or why the elves are in poverty despite the wealth in Denerim (the capital of Ferelden), I was thinking more along the lines of how the Hinterlands under the Dalish or an elven Teyrn presiding over Gwaren could be the land of opportunity for elves who have lived under oppression for centuries.

[quote]Wulfram wrote...

Mass elvish immigration to Gwaren would probably spark a rebellion by the human population pretty quickly.[/quote]

Would the nobles be so quick to start a rebellion with the Hero of Ferelden, a Grey Warden who has treaties with powerful allies across Ferelden and is not only Teyrn, but commands the armies of Gwaren as well? They run the risk of losing their own land if they fail (like Amaranthine being given over during the royal ceremony) and Gwaren is pretty isolated from the other human settlements.

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...

As the Alienage article in Codex points out, from city elves' standpoint the walls of alienages are just as much about keeping humans out as they are about keeping elves in. Yes, there is occasional Bann or another human troublemaker tresspassing there but it's less frequent than what they'd face leaving between humans. And moving to start some "brand new elf place" is bit of a pipe dream, considering all known, habitable land is pretty much claimed and whoever makes claim to it wouldn't just sit back and watch some elves come and try to take it as theirs.[/quote]

I understand that would be the point of why the elves wouldn't leave initially, but after the Blight, the King or Queen (or both) can give the entire Hinterlands (up to and including the fortress of Ostagar) to the Dalish elves for aiding humanity against the darkspawn, and an elven Warden (from the Circle or from the alienage) can become the new Teyrn of Gwaren (becoming a high noble as a result) and inherit the riches of the former Teyrn, Loghain, avoiding the scenerio of having a racist rapist like Bann Vaughan presiding over the alienage because it's the elven Hero of Ferelden who is the authority in Gwaren.

[quote]user5304792 wrote...

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.

A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.[/quote]

I don't see why Queen Anora or King Alistair would forbid the elves from leaving to a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn or the Hinterlands under Dalish authority when neither of them has an issue with handing over the land to provide the Dalish with a homeland in the first place. Are you suggesting that the other nobles might attempt to intervene if an elven Teyrn tries to make Gwaren a new homeland for the elves living in the alienage?

[quote]mousestalker wrote...

Where would they go? The Alienage is known, and they have their family and friends. Without a specific destination in mind, why would they leave?

The way immigration by ethnic or religious groups generally works is that someone bold and adventurous goes to a new area, makes good and then starts sending for their relatives to help them out. Word spreads back home that the kid made good and more follow on their own. Where is this magical land of elven opportunity in Thedas?
[/quote]

I was thinking either the Hinterlands, if the Dalish aid humanity against the Blight and it's handed over to them by the King or Queen as a reward, or a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn.

It's not magical, it would certainly take effort and hard work to make it prosperous for them, but the Dalish have lived off the land for centuries, and Gwaren is good economy for timber and fish. Considering the actions of Vaughan and the purge of the alienage that followed, either choice might be a good opportunity for elves who have been forced to live in a walled off alienage to prosper in a place that won't treat them like second class citizens. I'm certain some, like Shianni, would stay to make the alienage better and change the laws, but others might want more opportunity now.

[quote]Elhanan wrote...

[quote]mousestalker wrote...

Where would they go? The Alienage is known, and they have their family and friends. Without a specific destination in mind, why would they leave?

The way immigration by ethnic or religious groups generally works is that someone bold and adventurous goes to a new area, makes good and then starts sending for their relatives to help them out. Word spreads back home that the kid made good and more follow on their own. Where is this magical land of elven opportunity in Thedas?[/quote]

The Grand Isle of Keebler; making cookies for the Qun since the last Blight....


[/quote]



[quote]Obadiah wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]sylvanaerie wrote...

They tried that once before...in the Dales. We all saw what happened with that.[/quote]

True, but living in the alienage is a hard life, especially when the elves are at the whim of someone like Bann Vaughan. There's no telling whether the next Bann will be any better, and unless Alistair is chosen to be King, elves will still be at the same place they are before the Blight. I'm surprised there isn't a huge exodus for the Hinterlands or even for Gwaren under an elven Teyrn.[/quote]

I'm guessing they're insitutionalized, like the castless dwarves of Orzammar. As crappy as their lives are, they know what they have and are afraid of risking it all for a better one.[/quote]

I can see why some would stay, certainly, but there are surface dwarves because some of them saw the surface as a better opportunity than living under the heel of the nobles of Orzammar. Some elves of the alienage do go to the Dalish because their life in Denerim is so unbearable. If the Dalish showed bravery during the Blight or the Hero of Ferelden was an elf and was rewarded with being made Teyrn of Gwaren, wouldn't elves see this as a sign to go to either of these places to make a better life for themselves and their children?

[quote]termokanden wrote...

Disclaimer: This is not directed at any specific person in this thread 

Why are you (most likely) still stuck in your boring middle-class neighborhood doing what other people are telling you and pointlessly voting for politicians that just don't care?

It's human (/elvish) nature. Most people (although they might complain) accept their place in life and try to make the most of it. There is a lot of uncertainty in anything else.[/quote]

I see your point, but people do move for better opportunity. There are a lot of instances in our own history of people leaving for better opportunity elsewhere. The Israelites left Egypt to establish their own homeland. In 1959, thousands of Tibetans crossed the Himalaya for India. People leave Cuba every day for opportunity in the United States. I'm certain some elves would be resigned to their fate in the alienage, but I can imagine others might try to inspire some to go to the Hinterlands or Gwaren if there's a sign that it's a better opportunity for them.

[quote]OldMan91 wrote...

There's also the change of ending up poor somewhere else. According to one of the families leaving the Denerim alienage, it costs a great deal of money to simply leave and go to another alienage. And raising a family in the wilderness or in a farm is very costly and time consuming, not to mention dangerous because of bandit attacks and such (and good luck trying to call the nearest garrison to help you, an elf and your elven family).
The Dalish aren't an ideal destination either. Wondering around Ferelden, hunting and hiding, living with a great deal of uncertainty, always wary of any nearby human populations and vigilant that they do not take the pitchforks and torches out. [/quote]

After the darkspawn attack, the alienage is in ruins along with the rest of Denerim. The Dalish can aid humanity during the Blight and become respected, even among humans. They are given the Hinterlands as a reward if you get them as allies.

The Hero of Ferelden becomes renown throughout Thedas for stopping the Blight, regardless of whether the Warden is an elf or even a mage (or both). An elven Teyrn welcoming other elves to Gwaren would be a better prospect than just barely scrapping by and having little to no rights in Denerim.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 septembre 2010 - 05:26 .

[Sarah1281]

Would the nobles be so quick to start a rebellion with the Hero of Ferelden, a Grey Warden who has treaties with powerful allies across Ferelden and is not only Teyrn, but commands the armies of Gwaren as well?

They had no problem rebelling against the Hero of River Dane. Heroes are only revered until they start causing problems. Then, of course, the treaties are worthless post-Blight. MAYBE the Dalish would fight so it affects them but there's no guarentee. The mages don't want to antagonize the Chantry needlessly (can you say Rite of Annullment?) and it has nothing to do with them and you know the dwarves simpy won't care about your surface problems. The treaties oblige them to aid you against the Blight and it does NOT turn them into your personal army. Besides, the army of Gwaren isn't a deterrent since that's exactly what people were rebelling against last time.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith66 wrote...

Would the nobles be so quick to start a rebellion with the Hero of Ferelden, a Grey Warden who has treaties with powerful allies across Ferelden and is not only Teyrn, but commands the armies of Gwaren as well?

They had no problem rebelling against the Hero of River Dane. Heroes are only revered until they start causing problems. Then, of course, the treaties are worthless post-Blight. MAYBE the Dalish would fight so it affects them but there's no guarentee. The mages don't want to antagonize the Chantry needlessly (can you say Rite of Annullment?) and it has nothing to do with them and you know the dwarves simpy won't care about your surface problems. The treaties oblige them to aid you against the Blight and it does NOT turn them into your personal army. Besides, the army of Gwaren isn't a deterrent since that's exactly what people were rebelling against last time.

You have a point about the civil war, and I agree that the treaties wouldn't mean that the others would aid the new Teyrn of Gwaren against the nobles, but would the nobles be privy to the exact details of the treaties the Hero of Ferelden has with the dwarves, the elves, and the mages? I don't think they know that the Grey Warden received assistance because of old treaties, since King Cailan and Teyrn Loghain didn't seem to know this themselves; neither of them made this suggestion during the early part of DA:O. Only Duncan seemed privy to the fact that the Grey Wardens could call upon these allies during a Blight, since the King requested the Orlesians to aid against them darkspawn attacking Ostagar.

As for winning the battle, most of the allies during the civil war sided with Arl Eamon and all who did didn't want Loghain to remain Regent, and I can't imagine that Eamon would see any benefit to fighting against the Hero of Ferelden. If the nobles have issue with elves, wouldn't they care that the new Teyrn is an elf, especially a high noble? Wouldn't they have issue with the King and/or Queen granting the entire Hinterlands to the Dalish elves, that seems to transpire without incident?

Gwaren is a distant town, and it's not even clear (because so little is told to us) if there are any other settlements nearby or if it's simply wilderness. Why would the nobles care if the Hero of Ferelden turns Gwaren into a mecca for the elves? Given the victory of the Blight, the Warden defeating the Hero of River Dane and the Archdemon, and Amaranthine now belonging to the Grey Wardens, I'd imagine some of the nobles would hesitate to engage the Warden.

The civil war seemed to deal more with the nobles refusing to accept Loghain's role, and there were plenty of people who felt that he was trying to become the new King of Ferelden. Would most nobles really care how the Hero of Ferelden was welcoming fellow elves into Gwaren, especially given how distant it is to the regions they preside over? I'd imagine that the nobles that did take issue with this and try to start a war with the new Teyrn would need to deal with the armies of Amaranthine since the Hero of Ferelden can also be the Commander of the Grey.

If they lost, couldn't the new Teyrn assimilate their regions to expand Gwaren the same way that Arl Rendon Howe took over Highever during DA:O? The only other Teyrn is Fergus Cousland, and there's nothing to indicate that he'd have any issue with elves prospering in Gwaren.

[Wulfram]

Given who the previous Teyrn of Gwaren was I wouldn't necessarily count on the loyalty of it's soldiers.

Even if the grey warden can deter open warfare, you're going to see a campaign of harrassment and murder intended to drive the elves out.  The current inhabitants of Gwaren aren't going to want to see the place turned into an elven homeland

As for the Dalish, Andrastean city dwellers don't turn into polytheistic nomads easily

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Given who the previous Teyrn of Gwaren was I wouldn't necessarily count on the loyalty of it's soldiers.

I'd imagine that a new Teyrn who defeated Loghain at the Landsmeet, Queen Anora revealing that her father lied about what happened to the soldiers at Ostagar and placing the blame entirely on him for the death of the King, and the Warden ending the Blight and defeating the Archdemon might be enough for the soldiers of Gwaren to have loyalty for their new Teyrn.

Wulfram wrote...

Even if the grey warden can deter open warfare, you're going to see a campaign of harrassment and murder intended to drive the elves out.  The current inhabitants of Gwaren aren't going to want to see the place turned into an elven homeland

There is already an elven population in Gwaren (at least, according to the DA Wiki) so I don't think it'd be as drastic a turn as if the Teyrn of Highever was trying to introduce elves into his strictly human populated teyrnir.

Wulfram wrote...

As for the Dalish, Andrastean city dwellers don't turn into polytheistic nomads easily

That's true, but it doesn't seem to be an issue for the city elves who abandoned the alienage for the nomadic Dalish in the past. Now that they have the entire Hinterlands for themselves, it'd likely be a better life for them than the alienage ever was.

[Fishy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But there is a good chance that our lives are better than the lives of those in the Alienage. No one thinks that the elves should move for the sake of moving or because Denerim is boring but rather because of how much life sucks for them.

That a perception of thing. Someone who lived in luxury since he's a kids and become by day poor(Let's say like <<15,000 per years .. Might  get very depressed.When you're used to some kind of life it's very hard for you to change it by day.I'm not very rich myself and i don't know what i would do with too much money.Because i don't need a lot of money to be happy.I'm used to have a tight budget and i don't care about the 60 K Mercedes.But if i was born with a silver plate in my anus i would probably see thing differently.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

user5304792 wrote...

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.

A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.

I don't see why Queen Anora or King Alistair would forbid the elves from leaving to a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn or the Hinterlands under Dalish authority when neither of them has an issue with handing over the land to provide the Dalish with a homeland in the first place. Are you suggesting that the other nobles might attempt to intervene if an elven Teyrn tries to make Gwaren a new homeland for the elves living in the alienage?

Ok imagine a city, any city really, where all the factory workers decide to up and leave all at once.  Can you imagine the chaos that would cause, do you have any idea how hard it would be to replace all those people.  As for giving the land to the Dalish the Dalish as it stands contribute nothing to Fereldan, they pay no taxes, work no jobs, and they aren't a big source of trade.  So to be perfectly honest it does't matter what they choose to do (barring waging war on humans of Fereldan).  City Elves on the other hand take care of a lot of jobs that humans just don't want (menial labour, servants, etc.) so if the Elves just up and left it would be a considerable inconvenience to the King/Queen to work on filling the void while dealing with the chaos. 

[LobselVith8]

DPSSOC wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

user5304792 wrote...

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.

A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.

I don't see why Queen Anora or King Alistair would forbid the elves from leaving to a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn or the Hinterlands under Dalish authority when neither of them has an issue with handing over the land to provide the Dalish with a homeland in the first place. Are you suggesting that the other nobles might attempt to intervene if an elven Teyrn tries to make Gwaren a new homeland for the elves living in the alienage?

Ok imagine a city, any city really, where all the factory workers decide to up and leave all at once.  Can you imagine the chaos that would cause, do you have any idea how hard it would be to replace all those people.

As for giving the land to the Dalish the Dalish as it stands contribute nothing to Fereldan, they pay no taxes, work no jobs, and they aren't a big source of trade.  So to be perfectly honest it does't matter what they choose to do (barring waging war on humans of Fereldan).  City Elves on the other hand take care of a lot of jobs that humans just don't want (menial labour, servants, etc.) so if the Elves just up and left it would be a considerable inconvenience to the King/Queen to work on filling the void while dealing with the chaos. 

Except that both King Alistair and Queen Anora (who can give the Dalish the land as solo rulers or when they rule together) realize that the ramifications of giving the Dalish their own homeland (the Hinterlands) would mean that other Dalish clans and possibly elves across Thedas would want to go there to make a life for themselves. Since Alistair is willing to change the laws to give the elves rights and place the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, I don't see why he'd even consider forcing the elves to remain in the alienage.

The attack by the darkspawn left Denerim in ruins, with the alienage battered pretty badly. It's not a simple case of business as usual, it's rebuilding in the wake of the Blight. I think that the humans would focus their attention on rebuilding their homes and the royal capital instead of the elves leaving the ghetto for a better life elsewhere. The elves in the alienage live in relative squalor and in the Cousland Origin story, Iona makes it clear that being a servant is the best an elf can achieve in human society. I think that quite a few of them would be willing to rebuild their life in their own homeland instead of in the alienage.

[Sarah1281]

I'm sure that they don't think that the ramifications of giving the Dalish their own land would be a majority of the elven race in Ferelden and possibly out of it moving there, especially since most aren't Dalish. And it doesn't matter if a servant is the best an elf can achieve because that does not decrease their value as cheap laborers and therefore the incentive people would have to keep them in Denerim.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm sure that they don't think that the ramifications of giving the Dalish their own land would be a majority of the elven race in Ferelden and possibly out of it moving there, especially since most aren't Dalish. And it doesn't matter if a servant is the best an elf can achieve because that does not decrease their value as cheap laborers and therefore the incentive people would have to keep them in Denerim.

Why would you assume that Alistair and Anora wouldn't realize the ramifications of giving an oppressed group of people their own homeland and sovereignty? In the US for the Dalish Warden, the Ferelden ruler makes it clear to the Dalish Keeper Marethari that while the Hinterlands aren't the Dales, the land given to the Dalish is an effort to do it right this time, so obviously Alistair and/or Anora realize that there will be elves heading to the new elven homeland.

True, elves are treated as cheap labor, but the Blight leaves everything in disarray. The King and/or Queen has declared that the Hinterlands are now the homeland of the Dales. The Warden of the Grey is the commander of the armies and possibly an elf. What can the nobles do without risking the wrath of the Crown or the Dalish clans themselves? The elves of the alienage may be unarmed by law, but the Dalish certainly aren't. Considering that the Dalish are spread across Thedas and armed with weapons and powerful mages, while Ferelden has been badly battered by the Blight and the civil war, I don't see why the Ferelden human nobles would provoke a fight in their weakened state. Given the living conditions of the alienages, I don't see why some of the elves wouldn't leave for the Hinterlands or how the human nobles would realistically stop them when they've expended so much energy stopping the darkspawn from claiming Ferelden.

[Sarah1281]

Why would you assume that Alistair and Anora wouldn't realize the ramifications of giving an oppressed group of people their own homeland and sovereignty?

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. Obviously, people like Shianni want things to change for the people currently living there, but that will only happen if Alistair becomes King.
 
I wrote the Crown (i.e. the King and/or Queen of Ferelden), not the Antivan Crows. I believe the term is referenced in Ander's quest in Awakening by the templars if the Warden references that Anders is now a Grey Warden and no longer part of the Circle.
 
Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. I doubt ordinary people would side with nobles who blatantly attack innocent men, women, and children because of their heritage and their desire for a better life elsewhere. I don't think the King and/or Queen would be too pleased with the nobles starting trouble over their royal boon to the Dalish. I doubt Arl Eamon would champion this type of action, so he (and his army) would likely side with the ruler (especially if Alistair is King given their history together, and Alistair's desire to see the lot of the elves improved).

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. Obviously, people like Shianni want things to change for the people currently living there, but that will only happen if Alistair becomes King.
 
I wrote the Crown (i.e. the King and/or Queen of Ferelden), not the Antivan Crows. I believe the term is referenced in Ander's quest in Awakening by the templars if the Warden references that Anders is now a Grey Warden and no longer part of the Circle.
 
Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. I doubt ordinary people would side with nobles who blatantly attack innocent men, women, and children because of their heritage and their desire for a better life elsewhere. I don't think the King and/or Queen would be too pleased with the nobles starting trouble over their royal boon to the Dalish. I doubt Arl Eamon would champion this type of action, so he (and his army) would likely side with the ruler (especially if Alistair is King given their history together, and Alistair's desire to see the lot of the elves improved).

Give it a 100 years when everyone that remembers the noble actions of the Dalish to be dead and any homeland that the elves will have created will be ground into dust. Even -if- Eamon, the Queen/King were to protect any sort of homeland, when they have been dead for a generation the human nobles will be able to get back to the business of keeping the elves down.

[LobselVith8]

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. Obviously, people like Shianni want things to change for the people currently living there, but that will only happen if Alistair becomes King.
 
I wrote the Crown (i.e. the King and/or Queen of Ferelden), not the Antivan Crows. I believe the term is referenced in Ander's quest in Awakening by the templars if the Warden references that Anders is now a Grey Warden and no longer part of the Circle.
 
Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. I doubt ordinary people would side with nobles who blatantly attack innocent men, women, and children because of their heritage and their desire for a better life elsewhere. I don't think the King and/or Queen would be too pleased with the nobles starting trouble over their royal boon to the Dalish. I doubt Arl Eamon would champion this type of action, so he (and his army) would likely side with the ruler (especially if Alistair is King given their history together, and Alistair's desire to see the lot of the elves improved).

Give it a 100 years when everyone that remembers the noble actions of the Dalish to be dead and any homeland that the elves will have created will be ground into dust. Even -if- Eamon, the Queen/King were to protect any sort of homeland, when they have been dead for a generation the human nobles will be able to get back to the business of keeping the elves down.

If elves have been leaving alienages and Dalish clans have come across Thedas to live in the Hinterlands and expand southward into territory not claimed by Ferelden, why would you assume that in 100 years the nobles would be able to restore everything back to the way it was before King Alistair and Queen Anora? If the Warden-Commander wasn't human (or at least not racist) and the Commander's presence inspired others to join the Wardens (especially elves), there's the possibility that in 100 years Amaranthine could have many elven Wardens in their ranks, including the Commander of the Grey (and the default Arl of Amaranthine), not to mention the possibility of Dalish Grey Wardens.
 
Considering the greater rights for the elves under King Alistair and the Elder being placed in the royal court, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be an easy effort for the nobles to simply sack the Hinterlands. The Dalish nearly won the war against Orlais, and it's likely they'd learn from the mistakes that were made the last time. There's the approaching Qunari forces who want to invade (as evidenced by Sten) so in 100 years the humans will likely have bigger issues to deal with than the elves.

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. Obviously, people like Shianni want things to change for the people currently living there, but that will only happen if Alistair becomes King.
 
I wrote the Crown (i.e. the King and/or Queen of Ferelden), not the Antivan Crows. I believe the term is referenced in Ander's quest in Awakening by the templars if the Warden references that Anders is now a Grey Warden and no longer part of the Circle.
 
Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. I doubt ordinary people would side with nobles who blatantly attack innocent men, women, and children because of their heritage and their desire for a better life elsewhere. I don't think the King and/or Queen would be too pleased with the nobles starting trouble over their royal boon to the Dalish. I doubt Arl Eamon would champion this type of action, so he (and his army) would likely side with the ruler (especially if Alistair is King given their history together, and Alistair's desire to see the lot of the elves improved).

Give it a 100 years when everyone that remembers the noble actions of the Dalish to be dead and any homeland that the elves will have created will be ground into dust. Even -if- Eamon, the Queen/King were to protect any sort of homeland, when they have been dead for a generation the human nobles will be able to get back to the business of keeping the elves down.

If elves have been leaving alienages and Dalish clans have come across Thedas to live in the Hinterlands and expand southward into territory not claimed by Ferelden, why would you assume that in 100 years the nobles would be able to restore everything back to the way it was before King Alistair and Queen Anora? If the Warden-Commander wasn't human (or at least not racist) and the Commander's presence inspired others to join the Wardens (especially elves), there's the possibility that in 100 years Amaranthine could have many elven Wardens in their ranks, including the Commander of the Grey (and the default Arl of Amaranthine), not to mention the possibility of Dalish Grey Wardens.
 
Considering the greater rights for the elves under King Alistair and the Elder being placed in the royal court, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be an easy effort for the nobles to simply sack the Hinterlands. The Dalish nearly won the war against Orlais, and it's likely they'd learn from the mistakes that were made the last time. There's the approaching Qunari forces who want to invade (as evidenced by Sten) so in 100 years the humans will likely have bigger issues to deal with than the elves.

Every time in known Thedas history whenever the elves has constructed a homeland humans have destroyed it. If the Dalish came and there was a new elf homeland what is to stop the chantry from calling another exalted march? Also, it is dangerous to assume that any group will learn from their mistakes.

[LobselVith8]

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not assuming that they wouldn't realize the ramifications of that. I'm assuming that those wouldn't be the ramifications. I know that there WILL be elves, but it's a Dalish homeland and there's no reason to think that a majority of the Ferelden elves would join them. And why would the Crows care at all if the nobles don't want the elves to all move somewhere else? And I can't see the Dalish starting something without risking losing their bran new land. Plus, they kind of have shown themselves pretty apathetic to the plight of the city elves.

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. Obviously, people like Shianni want things to change for the people currently living there, but that will only happen if Alistair becomes King.
 
I wrote the Crown (i.e. the King and/or Queen of Ferelden), not the Antivan Crows. I believe the term is referenced in Ander's quest in Awakening by the templars if the Warden references that Anders is now a Grey Warden and no longer part of the Circle.
 
Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. I doubt ordinary people would side with nobles who blatantly attack innocent men, women, and children because of their heritage and their desire for a better life elsewhere. I don't think the King and/or Queen would be too pleased with the nobles starting trouble over their royal boon to the Dalish. I doubt Arl Eamon would champion this type of action, so he (and his army) would likely side with the ruler (especially if Alistair is King given their history together, and Alistair's desire to see the lot of the elves improved).

Give it a 100 years when everyone that remembers the noble actions of the Dalish to be dead and any homeland that the elves will have created will be ground into dust. Even -if- Eamon, the Queen/King were to protect any sort of homeland, when they have been dead for a generation the human nobles will be able to get back to the business of keeping the elves down.

If elves have been leaving alienages and Dalish clans have come across Thedas to live in the Hinterlands and expand southward into territory not claimed by Ferelden, why would you assume that in 100 years the nobles would be able to restore everything back to the way it was before King Alistair and Queen Anora? If the Warden-Commander wasn't human (or at least not racist) and the Commander's presence inspired others to join the Wardens (especially elves), there's the possibility that in 100 years Amaranthine could have many elven Wardens in their ranks, including the Commander of the Grey (and the default Arl of Amaranthine), not to mention the possibility of Dalish Grey Wardens.
 
Considering the greater rights for the elves under King Alistair and the Elder being placed in the royal court, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be an easy effort for the nobles to simply sack the Hinterlands. The Dalish nearly won the war against Orlais, and it's likely they'd learn from the mistakes that were made the last time. There's the approaching Qunari forces who want to invade (as evidenced by Sten) so in 100 years the humans will likely have bigger issues to deal with than the elves.

Every time in known Thedas history whenever the elves has constructed a homeland humans have destroyed it. If the Dalish came and there was a new elf homeland what is to stop the chantry from calling another exalted march? Also, it is dangerous to assume that any group will learn from their mistakes.

Every time in history? The elves only had two homelands, Elvhenan and the Dales. The Tevinter Magisters used blood magic to destroy Elvhenan, and the Dales fell there were territorial disputes between Orlais and the Dales, which caused the Chantry to declare an Exalted March since the Chantry is based out of Orlais. The elves were also the reason that Andraste defeated the Tevinter Imperium, since Shartan lead the former elven slaves against their masters, not to mention the Dalish elves participating in the Fifth Blight and the defeat of the darkspawn armies (which is the reason they're given a homeland in the first place).

[kaiki01]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Every time in history? The elves only had two homelands, Elvhenan and the Dales. The Tevinter Magisters used blood magic to destroy Elvhenan, and the Dales fell there were territorial disputes between Orlais and the Dales, which caused the Chantry to declare an Exalted March since the Chantry is based out of Orlais. The elves were also the reason that Andraste defeated the Tevinter Imperium, since Shartan lead the former elven slaves against their masters, not to mention the Dalish elves participating in the Fifth Blight and the defeat of the darkspawn armies (which is the reason they're given a homeland in the first place).

Yep, both times in history that the elves had homelands they lost them. Thanks for agreeing with me =D

[Sarah1281]

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option.

And yet...they don't. They seem pretty conditioned to stay where they are regardless of what they SHOULD do. Plus they seem to think that they'd be going to live with a bunch of savages.

Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation.

Elves attacking humans for whatever reason will lead to a huge crackdown on elves. I don't care if King Alistair is the biggest supporter of elven rights ever, he's one person and he does not have unlimited power. No one's going to see it as 'Oh, those purehearted Dalish are just defending their poor, innocent city cousins.' Dalish attack, humans are giong to go massacre them.

[DPSSOC]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that both King Alistair and Queen Anora (who can give the Dalish the land as solo rulers or when they rule together) realize that the ramifications of giving the Dalish their own homeland (the Hinterlands) would mean that other Dalish clans and possibly elves across Thedas would want to go there to make a life for themselves.

 
Anora maybe, Alistair probably not. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Since Alistair is willing to change the laws to give the elves rights and place the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, I don't see why he'd even consider forcing the elves to remain in the alienage.

Politics vs Economics.  Example it's politically a good idea for a company to stop outsourcing labour and make all prodction operations local (within home nation).  Economically however it's a stupid idea because the boon in sales will only be temporary before people begin buying from your outsourcing competitors because they provide the same product at much lower cost.

Alistair might not force elves to stay in the Alienage, but he has damn good reason to keep them in Denerim (they provide a considerable portion of the work force completely monopolizing many jobs).

LobselVith8 wrote...
The attack by the darkspawn left Denerim in ruins, with the alienage battered pretty badly. It's not a simple case of business as usual, it's rebuilding in the wake of the Blight. I think that the humans would focus their attention on rebuilding their homes and the royal capital instead of the elves leaving the ghetto for a better life elsewhere.

For the moment yes, but once the rebuilding is complete people are going to expect things to return to business as usual and be damn angry if it doesn't.  Like it or not Alistair and Anora are answerable to people other than themselves and sometimes they're going to have to make decisions that hurt a smaller group to appease a larger one.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The elves in the alienage live in relative squalor and in the Cousland Origin story, Iona makes it clear that being a servant is the best an elf can achieve in human society. I think that quite a few of them would be willing to rebuild their life in their own homeland instead of in the alienage.

Certainly the elves might want to leave; the question is will the humans who rely on them to take care of various "low" jobs let them.

[adneate]

LobselVith8 wrote...
 
Considering the greater rights for the elves under King Alistair and the Elder being placed in the royal court, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be an easy effort for the nobles to simply sack the Hinterlands. The Dalish nearly won the war against Orlais, and it's likely they'd learn from the mistakes that were made the last time. There's the approaching Qunari forces who want to invade (as evidenced by Sten) so in 100 years the humans will likely have bigger issues to deal with than the elves.

The primary problem is that Humans probably outnumber every Qunari and Elf in Thedas combined, the Dales fought with extreme skill but in the end that was irrelevent because the Humans had the sheer weight of numbers behind them. A Human army could be annihilated by the Elves in the field and they'd just raise another, slowly wearing the Elves down by sheer attrition every battle they win the Elves become weaker and weaker from the losses it takes to destroy these massive Human armies. Humans have the manpower and resources to fight and win on two fronts, they can attack relentlessly with no regard for loss of life, any Elven homeland requires at least the disinterest of Humans and the continued disunity of Human politics otherwise they will be crushed.

[user5304792]

LobselVith8 wrote...

user5304792 wrote...

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.

A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.

I don't see why Queen Anora or King Alistair would forbid the elves from leaving to a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn or the Hinterlands under Dalish authority when neither of them has an issue with handing over the land to provide the Dalish with a homeland in the first place. Are you suggesting that the other nobles might attempt to intervene if an elven Teyrn tries to make Gwaren a new homeland for the elves living in the alienage?

My answer was a pre-blight answer.
Pre-blight I think that the nobles would rather keep the elves around for economic reasons if not also prideful social reasons.

After the blight there's definitely a window when I think that the elves could safely migrate en mass, however, depending on the warden's origin and decisions, the elves are in a position to improve their status in the only home that they've ever known so there's considerably less reason to leave.

Modifié par user5304792, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]kaiki01 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Every time in history? The elves only had two homelands, Elvhenan and the Dales. The Tevinter Magisters used blood magic to destroy Elvhenan, and the Dales fell there were territorial disputes between Orlais and the Dales, which caused the Chantry to declare an Exalted March since the Chantry is based out of Orlais. The elves were also the reason that Andraste defeated the Tevinter Imperium, since Shartan lead the former elven slaves against their masters, not to mention the Dalish elves participating in the Fifth Blight and the defeat of the darkspawn armies (which is the reason they're given a homeland in the first place).[/quote]

Yep, both times in history that the elves had homelands they lost them. Thanks for agreeing with me =D

[/quote]

You made it sound as if the elves had many homelands that were lost, and they only had two. The elves also had victories as well (Shartan against the Tevinter Imperium and the Blight), which is the point I was trying to make. They didn't fall in every battle they engaged in.

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith66 wrote...

I can imagine that many of them would find the alternative of living in a homeland, without the oppression that they've endured in the alienage (especially at the hands of Bann Vaughan and the purge that followed) as a better option. [/quote]

And yet...they don't. They seem pretty conditioned to stay where they are regardless of what they SHOULD do. Plus they seem to think that they'd be going to live with a bunch of savages. [/quote]

That's before the Blight, before the Dalish become pretty popular for aiding against the Blight (even among the humans, who actually welcome the travellers into their settlements). I can imagine that after the Blight and with the near destruction of the alienage, an elven homeland would be a pretty good alternative to the alienage.

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith66 wrote...

Why would they risk losing their land by defending the innocent? The Dalish become popular in the wake of the Blight ending because of their paricipation. [/quote]

Elves attacking humans for whatever reason will lead to a huge crackdown on elves. I don't care if King Alistair is the biggest supporter of elven rights ever, he's one person and he does not have unlimited power. No one's going to see it as 'Oh, those purehearted Dalish are just defending their poor, innocent city cousins.' Dalish attack, humans are giong to go massacre them. [/quote]

If he's King, Alistair certainly has power, given that he can elect an the Elder from the Alienage to the royal court in the face of all the controversy that it causes among the nobles. Anyone who had seen him in battle for the year he spent with the Warden would recognize that he uses templar tactics, would likely view him as a templar (since it wasn't habit for templars to leave except for death or when they retired), and even Leliana (who was part of the Loithering Chantry) saw Alistair as a templar, despite him pointing out that he wasn't technically a templar and never took his vows. As far as some or most people would be concerned, they have a templar King at the helm, who gave the now popular Dalish clan their own homeland, and Ferelden is a very religious nation. Nobles who have no actual ties to the Chantry going against a man who might be viewed, for all intents and purposes, as a templar (a holy warrior of the Chantry) might cause some serious problems among the common folk who aren't exactly educated on most things.

If the nobles are attacking men, women and children of elven descent in the wake of victory against the Blight and a surge of popularity for the Dalish (though limited it may be), I doubt it wouldn't cause problems. Dead children aren't going to inspire the common folk to hate the Dalish or cause the common folk to stop the elven pilgrims from going to the Hinterlands. Alistair can crack down on any noble who gets out of line, he's the King. I doubt that Anora would be any easier on a noble who thought they would subvert her rule.

[quote]adneate wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
 
Considering the greater rights for the elves under King Alistair and the Elder being placed in the royal court, I'd imagine that it wouldn't be an easy effort for the nobles to simply sack the Hinterlands. The Dalish nearly won the war against Orlais, and it's likely they'd learn from the mistakes that were made the last time. There's the approaching Qunari forces who want to invade (as evidenced by Sten) so in 100 years the humans will likely have bigger issues to deal with than the elves.[/quote]

The primary problem is that Humans probably outnumber every Qunari and Elf in Thedas combined, the Dales fought with extreme skill but in the end that was irrelevent because the Humans had the sheer weight of numbers behind them. A Human army could be annihilated by the Elves in the field and they'd just raise another, slowly wearing the Elves down by sheer attrition every battle they win the Elves become weaker and weaker from the losses it takes to destroy these massive Human armies. Humans have the manpower and resources to fight and win on two fronts, they can attack relentlessly with no regard for loss of life, any Elven homeland requires at least the disinterest of Humans and the continued disunity of Human politics otherwise they will be crushed.

[/quote]

Unless the Qunari forces widdle away at the human forces for the next 100 years, or the mages of the numerous Circles revolt against the Chantry in a bid for independence, and then elves outnumber humans who have been nearly crushed by the Qunari or the mages are more amicable to deal with the Dalish and their pro-mage clans. The Qunari forces have only lost to the humans because of the use of mages by the Chantry (since Qunari have more advanced technology than they do - the codex mentions the use of cannons, for instance), so it's impossible to say what their numbers are since so little is known about them, but evidently they have made some victories against the humans.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except that both King Alistair and Queen Anora (who can give the Dalish the land as solo rulers or when they rule together) realize that the ramifications of giving the Dalish their own homeland (the Hinterlands) would mean that other Dalish clans and possibly elves across Thedas would want to go there to make a life for themselves.[/quote]
 
Anora maybe, Alistair probably not. [/quote]

I think a hardened Alistair would.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Since Alistair is willing to change the laws to give the elves rights and place the Elder of the Alienage in his royal court, I don't see why he'd even consider forcing the elves to remain in the alienage.[/quote]

Politics vs Economics.  Example it's politically a good idea for a company to stop outsourcing labour and make all prodction operations local (within home nation).  Economically however it's a stupid idea because the boon in sales will only be temporary before people begin buying from your outsourcing competitors because they provide the same product at much lower cost.

Alistair might not force elves to stay in the Alienage, but he has damn good reason to keep them in Denerim (they provide a considerable portion of the work force completely monopolizing many jobs).[/quote]

Given how Alistair disagrees with the type of hard decisions that are faced in DA:O, from using blood magic to save Connor to using the Anvil to enslave souls, I don't think Alistair is the type of person who would force elves from the alienage to remain in Denerim. Anora is also willing to hand over the entire Hinterlands to the Dalish in order to make things better this time around between humans and elves, so while I don't think she's be quite as empathetic as Alistair would be, she certainly is intelligent enough to realize giving the elves a homeland means that elves are going to migrate there instead of living in a ghetto.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The attack by the darkspawn left Denerim in ruins, with the alienage battered pretty badly. It's not a simple case of business as usual, it's rebuilding in the wake of the Blight. I think that the humans would focus their attention on rebuilding their homes and the royal capital instead of the elves leaving the ghetto for a better life elsewhere.[/quote]

For the moment yes, but once the rebuilding is complete people are going to expect things to return to business as usual and be damn angry if it doesn't.  Like it or not Alistair and Anora are answerable to people other than themselves and sometimes they're going to have to make decisions that hurt a smaller group to appease a larger one. [/quote]

Is that why Alistair appoints the Elder to the royal court, whether he's hardened or not? Because he wants things to return to business as usual? Seems like Alistair wants to change things regardless of what other people want.

[quote]DPSSOC wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The elves in the alienage live in relative squalor and in the Cousland Origin story, Iona makes it clear that being a servant is the best an elf can achieve in human society. I think that quite a few of them would be willing to rebuild their life in their own homeland instead of in the alienage.[/quote]

Certainly the elves might want to leave; the question is will the humans who rely on them to take care of various "low" jobs let them.[/quote]

No of them were able to stop King Alistair or Qyeen Anora from making efforts to improve the lot of the mages or giving the Dalish the entire Hinterlands, so I'm going to assume that their popularity is going to trump the efforts of the lesser nobles.

[quote]user5304792 wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]user5304792 wrote...

I don't think that the humans would even allow the elves to leave en mass.

A few ambitious elves could move on and I'm sure that they do, but for a substantial amount to leave would probably require armed conflict or a strong social reform movement.[/quote]

I don't see why Queen Anora or King Alistair would forbid the elves from leaving to a Gwaren under an elven Teyrn or the Hinterlands under Dalish authority when neither of them has an issue with handing over the land to provide the Dalish with a homeland in the first place. Are you suggesting that the other nobles might attempt to intervene if an elven Teyrn tries to make Gwaren a new homeland for the elves living in the alienage?[/quote]

My answer was a pre-blight answer.
Pre-blight I think that the nobles would rather keep the elves around for economic reasons if not also prideful social reasons.

After the blight there's definitely a window when I think that the elves could safely migrate en mass, however, depending on the warden's origin and decisions, the elves are in a position to improve their status in the only home that they've ever known so there's considerably less reason to leave.

[/quote]

Fair enough, but my OP did pertain to why the elves wouldn't leave for the Hinterlands under Dalish rule (a royal boon given to them post-Blight) or a Gwaren under the authority of an elven Teyrn (a royal boon given to the Grey Warden if he or she survives the battle against the Archdemon).

I'd agree that people like Shianni would stay in the alienage and try to make it better for the people living there, but I have to say that the thought of an elven homeland would certainly appeal to quite a few people who are tired of the bigotry and lack of rights that they've had for centuries.

[Bruddajakka]

Not all of Alienages are horrible places to live either. Apparently the one in Highever was really very nice back when Bryce was Teyrn, and one would assume it will be under Fergus.

[Sarah1281]

That's before the Blight, before the Dalish become pretty popular for aiding against the Blight (even among the humans, who actually welcome the travellers into their settlements). I can imagine that after the Blight and with the near destruction of the alienage, an elven homeland would be a pretty good alternative to the alienage.

Post-Blight werewolves are also popular...for a time. And even the epilogue points out all the tension springing up and Lanaya barely manages to keep peace alive at the point the epilogue cuts off at.

If he's King, Alistair certainly has power, given that he can elect an the Elder from the Alienage to the royal court in the face of all the controversy that it causes among the nobles. Anyone who had seen him in battle for the year he spent with the Warden would recognize that he uses templar tactics, would likely view him as a templar (since it wasn't habit for templars to leave except for death or when they retired), and even Leliana (who was part of the Loithering Chantry) saw Alistair as a templar, despite him pointing out that he wasn't technically a templar and never took his vows. As far as some or most people would be concerned, they have a templar King at the helm, who gave the now popular Dalish clan their own homeland, and Ferelden is a very religious nation. Nobles who have no actual ties to the Chantry going against a man who might be viewed, for all intents and purposes, as a templar (a holy warrior of the Chantry) might cause some serious problems among the common folk who aren't exactly educated on most things.



If the nobles are attacking men, women and children of elven descent in the wake of victory against the Blight and a surge of popularity for the Dalish (though limited it may be), I doubt it wouldn't cause problems. Dead children aren't going to inspire the common folk to hate the Dalish or cause the common folk to stop the elven pilgrims from going to the Hinterlands. Alistair can crack down on any noble who gets out of line, he's the King. I doubt that Anora would be any easier on a noble who thought they would subvert her rule.

I know Alistair has power. Not UNLIMITED power. He can appoint whoever he wants to his list of advisers but that will only make things better in the Denerim Alienage you're convinced they should all abandon. Do you really think all these unedcuated common people who supposedly think 'templar skills so must worship and follow every move they make' will have been in battle with him? And for that matter, it's not just seeing him in battle that will be enough to do it as he only has special attacks against mages and emissaries are rare. Leliana is a bad example of this as she has been following him and the Warden around for a year. Plus the idea that one Templar is instantly infallible is ridiculous. As far as we know, the Chantry never says anything of the sort and it's not like they really give their Templars much power anyway. If Alistair were a former revered-mother-in-training then it might be different but still unlikely.



Also, why in the world would the nobles go bragging about all of their children-killing? Anything the elves they're fighting might say can be written off as lies and I think you're severely overestimating how much the common people care about children. I mean, look at all the dead children when the orphanage was purged under Howe and how nobody actually cares. Seriously, even the elves themselves don't mention it. Only one Templar comes and he's there because he suspects a demon. What, exactly, do you expect Alistair to do against several nobles who don't openly say 'Yeah, so we're going to keep elves here because we need cheap labor'? Strip their titles? Kings have to be careful with that because if it looks like it's being done lightly (and doing it over elves most people don't care about is kind of lightly) then he'll have a rebellion on his hands. Alistair does NOT have unlimited power. He has to work WITH the nobles, not insist that he loves elves and therefor he's fine with ruining the economy and anyone who doesn't like it will be stripped of their titles.