17 réponses à ce sujet

[Jappert]

It's been a while since I last played this game and I forgot how the backstabbing system exactly worked.

I've took the dual wielding path with my rogue, and I'm aiming to just pump out as much damage as possible. Should I get daggers and try to get behind my opponent or are swords a better choice (they seem to have higher basic damage).

I'm guessing attacks like flurry and whirlwind do more damage with swords but you won't be able to backstab with them.

I am ultimately aiming to get: Coup de Grace, Lethality, all lockpick talents, Dual Weapon Mastery and Punisher. With this build I'm thinking daggers are the way to go.

Thanks alot in advance for your answers!

[Mouse That Roared]

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/66/index/223777 

The above is the thread that I believe is still pretty much correct re rogue DPS.  I believe that momentum is your most important talent   It will give you a substantial DPS boost.  

If you are focusing on DPS then you don't need swords and you don't need dw mastery.  People generally go dagger/dagger cunning or dagger/dagger dex though you'll see in the above post that you could focus on str and use axes or swords if you want.  Dagger/Dagger dex will, at least in origins, get you the higher damage (at least in theory) and dex builds get you better survival and better unbuffed hit % (this advantage over a cunning build is lessened with sufficient buffs).

Frankly, any of the options give you plenty of DPS but you really should consider momentum pronto if you haven't already.

EDIT - I re-read this and realized I messed up above.  In theory, dagger/dagger cunning is the highest DPS mode.   Emphasis should be placed on "in theory" as it may vary in practice based on items, who is in your party, what buffs are on you, etc.  

Modifié par Mouse That Roared, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[Jappert]

Thanks alot, I'll check it out!

[termokanden]

Assuming 100% hit rate when one of the main benefits of dex is attack rating is a bit bad I think. I appreciate the effort put into that post, but what I really feel is missing is some serious research on how much attack rating is actually worth, instead of just assuming its value is a big fat ZERO.

That part is still very unclear to me. I've played around with it a bit, and it seems to me that if you can keep backstabbing, it really is OK to focus purely on cunning. But if you can't, in my limited test runs my cunning rogue didn't fare as well as my dex rogue.

Problem for me is, tanking is somewhat poor in this game. I do enough DPS with a purely dex-based rogue to pull threat from the tank, and I don't see yet how you can ever get to backstab through an entire fight.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 septembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[Mouse That Roared]

I agree with termokanden in that I prefer a dex rogue due to higher defense and I don't like to be reliant on other characters. However, the OP of the DPS post mentions that she can't account for differences in hit rates without knowing the monster defense, buffs, etc. What people say is that their anecdotal evidence is that with the correct buffs the difference in hit rate isn't that great but you should take that for what it is worth.

The high cunning proponents tend to assume that they will have heroic aura, rally, song of courage, etc. all stacked on them. I prefer to not have to have those stacked on me and to be more self-sufficient but it seems viable to gameplan for the above.  She posts in the thread for example the difference between the attack ratings and then talks about ways to make that up and what spellpower will be needed by various characters to get the bonuses contemplated etc.  Of course, as you said, we have to know at what point attack becomes useless (i.e., the relative benefit of more attack decreases the closer you are to 100% until it is useless once you are at 100%).

What I think is the area threads like the above are lacking is that they tend to look at things and discuss the way things will look at the end of the game. But, you have to play a long time to get to the end of the game where you will get the huge buffs or where your defense will make you unhittable or...

The other consideration is what you want your rogue to do.  I want my rogue to open every chest in the game and to do so from the beginning.  That means to invest in device mastery with a 30 cunning build.  Some don't mind keeping their investment in the line minimal and going high cunning.  They may not open everything early, until they get their cunning high, but they save some talent points there.  At the end of Awakening this isn't a big deal but it is nice to have those talents free while leveling in the early and mid-game.  

Modifié par Mouse That Roared, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:03 .

[termokanden]

Yeah I am aware of all that. I was merely disappointed that all we have about hit rates is anecdotal evidence. Anyway I'm playing a dex rogue at the moment and damage isn't a problem, survivability and threat is. Can imagine it would be worse if I had focused on cunning.

One other slight issue to consider is the scaling of resistance checks. From what I can read, DW skills have either strength or cunning based resistance checks. There's no information about that in-game though.

As for lockpicking. I just bring Leliana for that. Always did, she's just a really good support character if you give her Scattershot, Song of Courage, and get her to stay out of the way.

Modifié par termokanden, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:18 .

[RPJer001]

To max DPS over the course of the Origins campaign, try to backstab as much as possible. Pump dex and cun, dex early for hit rate and cunning later on for damage--assuming assassin spec of course. You will want to run with tainted blade on (from Warden's DLC) to max damage--with added risk. I like assassin/bard or assassin/duelist specs.



As was mentioned earlier, dex rogues get hit less often which helps DPS over the course of the game. That said, there are diminishing returns. An attack or defense rating of 100 is very good and a rating of 130 is better but not 30% better.

[RPJer001]

To OP, sorry, I see that the thread's title is asking mainly about weapons, not builds.



Yes, dagger/dagger is the way to go for max DPS. The thread referenced above does some weapon comparisons.

[Jappert]

I've been having a lot of fun with the combination of my rogue and Morrigan lately. (no jokes plz...).

She runs in and cone of colds a bunch of em. He then pumps auto backstabs and starts shattering targets, he get's about 80% of the kills in my group like this.



Thanks for all the comments. I'll be sticking with dual dagger for now, it suits me best.

[Rabrewski]

are dual wielding rogues slower with fullsize 1handers than the smaller shortsword versions?

[Cariborne]

In terms of Momentum, if you have a Mage with Haste, I wouldn't grab it. Last time I checked they actually clash and make you swing slower.



Unless they fixed that.

[MEBengal2008]

When I build my rogue I go DEX +2 and CUNNING +1 on each level up until DEX is at 52. Once DEX is 52 I add everything to Cunning on each level up.

For specializations I select Bard and Asassian and add Shadow in DA Awakening.

I don't even dual wield as I try to save my talents and abilities for those that will provide much more benefit in DA Awakening.

Modifié par MEBengal2008, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[termokanden]

MEBengal2008 wrote...

I don't even dual wield as I try to save my talents and abilities for those that will provide much more benefit in DA Awakening.

That doesn't make any sense. One of the biggest damage buffs in the game is Momentum, and it's a dual wield talent.

You can buy a Manual of Focus in Awakening, so there's no need to save talent points for that either.

[MZJin]

MEBengal2008 wrote...

When I build my rogue I go DEX +2 and CUNNING +1 on each level up until DEX is at 52. Once DEX is 52 I add everything to Cunning on each level up.

For specializations I select Bard and Asassian and add Shadow in DA Awakening.

I don't even dual wield as I try to save my talents and abilities for those that will provide much more benefit in DA Awakening.

There is no point...

At the beginning of Awakenings you can change your character into whatever you want within the guidelines of staying a X race Rogue/Warrior/Mage. That means every attribute point, skill, and talent/spell.

[ezrafetch]

Cariborne wrote...

In terms of Momentum, if you have a Mage with Haste, I wouldn't grab it. Last time I checked they actually clash and make you swing slower.

Unless they fixed that.

Still exists as far as I know.  I don't bother with picking up Haste if I'm a DW Rogue.  It's two spell points well spent elsewhere, like getting Mana Clash earlier, getting Force Field >>>> Crushing Prison earlier, or getting your Glyphs line earlier.  All of those make the game significantly easier than the buff Haste provides, to me at least.  I got the Glyphs line ASAP (well, I got Flaming Weapons first with some Tomes, but that's besides the point) and spammed Shockwaves everywhere, which makes for easy pickings for a DW Rogue (insta-backstabs for the win).

edit: possible Dagger combos

Cun Dag/Dag: The Rose's Thorn + Fang/The Edge/Dead Thaig Shanker/Thorn of the Dead Gods (Tier 6)
Dex Dag/Dag: The Rose's Thorn + Thorn of the Dead Gods/Fang

It really doesn't matter so much what your offhand is.  They're all about equivalent in the long run, and the line becomes more blurred if you pour your "over"-Dex (stat points past maintaining 160DEF and 140ATT) into Cunning.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 18 septembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[termokanden]

In Origins, you're unlikely to get that much more than 160 def and 140 att. Buffed maybe.



Anyway, why use Thorn of the Dead Gods over The Edge if you have a dex rogue but not if you have a cunning rogue?



The Edge just seems better to me.



I just played through Origins with a dex dagger/dagger rogue. Used The Rose's Thorn and The Edge and never found a better combo.

[miltos33]

All the daggers mentioned above are excelent choices in Origins but we shouldn't forget the humble Crow Daggers.



If you sell them to Levi Dryden around level 13-14 he upgrades them to Dragonbone/3 rune slots and of course they come with the standard 15% Critical/Backstab Damage.



They are easy to get as Zevran joins the party with one equipped and you can also buy one from Cesar's usual stock in Denerim early in the game.

[ezrafetch]

termokanden wrote...

Anyway, why use Thorn of the Dead Gods over The Edge if you have a dex rogue but not if you have a cunning rogue?

I'm on 360, so while may I lust after the Edge, alas, it shall never be mine.