382 réponses à ce sujet

[Saibh]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

BioWare big company, big budget, no excuses.  Models are easy to make.

As someone who's seen a model being made, it's not easy. Money, time and effort can be put elsewhere.

Edit: It's not that they don't have the money for it, it's just better spent elsewhere.

As someone who has made a 3D model they are relatively easy especially compared to other gaming elements like logic, good level design and coding the bugger; and they should be easy to someone who works on them every day.  One model for a professional is not going to take long to make.

I have a feeling any model you made was not a working, moving model meant for a big-budget game, that, if a party member, would need complete sets of armor, walking animations, fighting animations, and so on?

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Saibh wrote...

I have a feeling any model you made was not a working, moving model meant for a big-budget game, that, if a party member, would need complete sets of armor, walking animations, fighting animations, and so on?

I don't intend to answer for him but, you also need to consider that for a team the size required to make a game, there is always somebody else to do the next step. Maybe one person makes the model, another person rigs it, another person animates it. So each individual step is easier than the whole, and one person is not necessarily accountable for each and every step.

Also as an aside the way it works usually is with headswaps, meaning the bodies and heads are seperate. In the case of DAO the heads, forearms, torsos and shins are seperate, so that you are literally piecing together different models when you pick armor. And considering that different armor was indicated by recolors or different texture maps and not always by different models, maybe they only had to model three or four different gloves per gender, four or five torsos per gender and so on. So you can break the workload down even further.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 09 septembre 2010 - 10:44 .

[Krytheos]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I have a feeling any model you made was not a working, moving model meant for a big-budget game, that, if a party member, would need complete sets of armor, walking animations, fighting animations, and so on?

I don't intend to answer for him but, you also need to consider that for a team the size required to make a game, there is always somebody else to do the next step. Maybe one person makes the model, another person rigs it, another person animates it. So each individual step is easier than the whole, and one person is not necessarily accountable for each and every step.

Also as an aside the way it works usually is with headswaps, meaning the bodies and heads are seperate. In the case of DAO the heads, forearms, torsos and shins are seperate, so that you are literally piecing together different models when you pick armor. And considering that different armor was indicated by recolors or different texture maps and not always by different models, maybe they only had to model three or four different gloves per gender, four or five torsos per gender and so on. So you can break the workload down even further.

Still, even if making the model is easier, there's also the fact Dave and I have pointed out that what it would take for a reasonable explanation for the female qunari to be there, which is odds that are highly against her. Also I would think Antiva would be the best place to just sort of stay, provided a female qunari gets away in the first place.

I mean, why go to the Free Marches if you have Antiva? Aside from the Crows, and perhaps a few more unsettling elements, it honestly isn't that bad compared to say, Orlais. So really, while you can break down the effort, the money will still be the same amount necessary to do all the work of modeling, armor design, making sure there are no bugs in her model with armor, and more, IF she's a party member. If not the workload is easier and doable, but they still have to devote time and effort for the camera angles, include the Voice work and make the dialogue as well as -- if she's a merchant or blacksmith, or whathave you -- fit her with appropiate stock, and if she's one of the merchants who restock, then the merchandice that is restocked, whether it be new or old.

Then they would have to also record the lines for Hawke with the merchant as well, since Hawke is voiced. Etc. There is a LOT of work involved, time, and effort, and you have to take EVERYTHING into account when making an NPC. Everything, just about, that they would do, minor character or not.

Also if she is a companion, you REALLY put a lot more work into it. You have to account for backstory, more lines of dialogue more voice acting, and so much more, especially with the complex way the dialogues are set up now.

Modifié par Krytheos, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Krytheos wrote...

Still, even if making the model is easier, there's also the fact Dave and I have pointed out that what it would take for a reasonable explanation for the female qunari to be there, which is odds that are highly against her. Also I would think Antiva would be the best place to just sort of stay, provided a female qunari gets away in the first place.

I mean, why go to the Free Marches if you have Antiva? Aside from the Crows, and perhaps a few more unsettling elements, it honestly isn't that bad compared to say, Orlais. So really, while you can break down the effort, the money will still be the same amount necessary to do all the work of modeling, armor design, making sure there are no bugs in her model with armor, and more, IF she's a party member. If not the workload is easier and doable, but they still have to devote time and effort for the camera angles, include the Voice work and make the dialogue as well as -- if she's a merchant or blacksmith, or whathave you -- fit her with appropiate stock, and if she's one of the merchants who restock, then the merchandice that is restocked, whether it be new or old.

Then they would have to also record the lines for Hawke with the merchant as well, since Hawke is voiced. Etc. There is a LOT of work involved, time, and effort, and you have to take EVERYTHING into account when making an NPC. Everything, just about, that they would do, minor character or not.

I understand all that, but I was attempting to clarify the modeling subject. How much or little work the modelers do is definitely not all that goes down that sucks up time, money and memory. Modelers plural/multiple at Bioware being why Saibh's concern over William's individual modeling prowess does not apply.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:32 .

[Darkchipper07]

Dave of Canada wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

This isn't a 'give us Tali cuz she's cute request'. It just seems a given in this instance, to bend the lore a bit and introduce a fresh idea into the fantasy Genre.

But having it implemented for the sake of simply having a token female qunari in the game is... awful. I'd rather they introduce something like it when the time comes for it to be important and play something that fits in the story itself. When a story crams characters down our throat for the sake of simply coolness, it tends to just be bad storytelling.

cough Mass Effect 2

[tmp7704]

Mary Kirby wrote...

We could either give you new models and animations for the female player so that she no longer has man hands and walks like a linebacker, or we could build the female qunari models and rigs. The player is more necessary than the qunari. She won.

You human are all racist.

[Fishy]

Mary Kirby wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

To the writers: I value their artistic licence. But let's say I bought ME2, and found they decided to blatantly put the Reapers, the major antagonists of the saga, on the back burner while introducing a minor distraction in their pla.....um, never mind.

let me try this again.

This isn't a 'give us Tali cuz she's cute request'. It just seems a given in this instance to bend the lore a bit and introduce a fresh idea into the fantasy Genre.

Darn, I guess I missed the part of DAO where we said the entire plot of the sequel would revolve around meeting a female qunari. I better go look at it again...

Here's your serious explanation: We don't have infinite resources to impliment everything. We could either give you new models and animations for the female player so that she no longer has man hands and walks like a linebacker, or we could build the female qunari models and rigs. The player is more necessary than the qunari. She won.

Sad but true.No more sprites anymore.
And no i don't agree with everything the dev say or explain . But i understand.

Modifié par Suprez30, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[In Exile]

Blasto the jelly wrote...

So the Qunari would give up and surrender then enlist Fem Qunari and fight makes no sense. Also the qunari have a strong sense of hounor the Females would gladly fight. 

Female Qunari soldiers don't make sense to the Qunari. It would be like saying we would rather paint chairs purple than surrender. It's just not something that makes sense in their current society.

Now, would they be desperate enough to change everything they believe? Probably. But the Qun as is says no female warriors.

[Axekix]

As a fan of WoW's female spacegoats, this saddens me.

[casedawgz]

Mary Kirby wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

To the writers: I value their artistic licence. But let's say I bought ME2, and found they decided to blatantly put the Reapers, the major antagonists of the saga, on the back burner while introducing a minor distraction in their pla.....um, never mind.

let me try this again.

This isn't a 'give us Tali cuz she's cute request'. It just seems a given in this instance to bend the lore a bit and introduce a fresh idea into the fantasy Genre.

Darn, I guess I missed the part of DAO where we said the entire plot of the sequel would revolve around meeting a female qunari. I better go look at it again...

Here's your serious explanation: We don't have infinite resources to impliment everything. We could either give you new models and animations for the female player so that she no longer has man hands and walks like a linebacker, or we could build the female qunari models and rigs. The player is more necessary than the qunari. She won.

No more man hands?! AWESOME!

[Altima Darkspells]

Mary Kirby wrote...


Darn, I guess I missed the part of DAO where we said the entire plot of the sequel would revolve around meeting a female qunari. I better go look at it again...

See that you do, lore slave!  Get to work.  Obviously Gaider isn't whipping people enough around there!

Mary Kirby wrote...

Here's your serious explanation: We don't have infinite resources to impliment everything. We could either give you new models and animations for the female player so that she no longer has man hands and walks like a linebacker, or we could build the female qunari models and rigs. The player is more necessary than the qunari. She won.

I thought the man-hands were a direct effect of the massive, oversized weapons?

Also, it makes me sad.  You make all the new designs, all the new rigs and animations, then BioWare turns around and makes us only allowed to play a human.   Why, Mary?  Why do you hate us so?

[David Gaider]

Pseudocognition wrote...
I don't intend to answer for him but, you also need to consider that for a team the size required to make a game, there is always somebody else to do the next step. Maybe one person makes the model, another person rigs it, another person animates it. So each individual step is easier than the whole, and one person is not necessarily accountable for each and every step.

Also as an aside the way it works usually is with headswaps, meaning the bodies and heads are seperate. In the case of DAO the heads, forearms, torsos and shins are seperate, so that you are literally piecing together different models when you pick armor. And considering that different armor was indicated by recolors or different texture maps and not always by different models, maybe they only had to model three or four different gloves per gender, four or five torsos per gender and so on. So you can break the workload down even further.

Is someone arguing that we couldn't put in a female qunari model?

Of course we could have.

If we had such a model, I'm sure we writers could have found a reason to use it, even. As it stands, however, the story simply didn't call for one. So having such a model would be rather low on the priority list.

And before anyone takes issue with that, remember that while it's a forum tendency to focus on one subject as if nothing else around it exists-- that's not how we work. We did not approach this game asking "how many varieties of qunari can we include?" but rather "how many different models do we have time to make?" The answer ot that is always "less than we'd like". So we make do, creating the things that are most important.

As Mary mentioned, we have the female qunari concept. I like it, and we will use it at some point-- sooner or later you're bound to run into one. But just because some things are kinda sorta cool doesn't mean they belong in DA2-- we have plenty of kinda sorta cool things to include as it is. I suggest y'all move on.

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Why, Mary?  Why do you hate us so?

We only hate you because you make us hate you.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:31 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

David Gaider wrote...

Is someone arguing that we couldn't put in a female qunari model?

If you were calling me out specifically, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't possible, but thank you for the clarification.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[casedawgz]

David Gaider wrote...



We only hate you because you make us hate you.

Owned. I think I love you, Gaider.

[Altima Darkspells]

David Gaider wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Why, Mary?  Why do you hate us so?

We only hate you because you make us hate you.

Excellent!  My plans for world domination are progressing exactly according to plan!  Now, I must really see someone about that whole self-loathing issue...

Now, I'm concentrating extra hard.  You'll either want to include a female qunari somehow.  ...or your head will explode.

Please don't have exploded head!  Then I wouldn't know if your replacement really wanted to include a female qunari, or if she simply didn't want her skull to kersplode.

Fantastic!  So we agree that we'll see a female qunari in some future DA product?  Right?  Good, great, grand!

[David Gaider]

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

[Dave of Canada]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

You've become so awesome since PAX.

[casedawgz]

Dave of Canada wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

You've become so awesome since PAX.

Gaider's zings are the highlight of this forum. His retorts are pure, unadulterated win.

[Giggles_Manically]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

Wow, who needs roundhouse kicks when you can have Gaider Slaps!

[Altima Darkspells]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

Hmm, if we complain enough, won't your corporate masters make you put one in?

Then who'd be the b*tch?!

[Leonia]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

Nobody tells him what to do. Noooobody!

[Lord_Valandil]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

Hmm, if we complain enough, won't your corporate masters make you put one in?

Then who'd be the b*tch?!

Round 1! Fight!

I loled. Honestly.

Modifié par Lord_Valandil, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[Nyaore]

David Gaider wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
Well, with that sort of attitude, young man, maybe you shouldn't be writing one at all... <_<

Sorry, but I am not your b*tch. I will include a female qunari in the story when I'm damn good and ready, thank you very much.

Oh snap. *laughs*  And this is why I look forward to seeing both you and Mary reply to topics like these.
Frankly I'd much rather you hold off on writing them into the series until you feel the time is right. I like to dabble with story writing from time to time, though I'm admittedly rather poor at it, and if there's one thing I've learned it's that introducing concepts and beings before you're good and ready will often lead to things going to hell in a handbasket in short order. Not to mention the lore for the series, as we know it, makes it so that even if you wanted to add a female Qunari to this particular game it couldn't be done as easily as with other potential companions.

Modifié par Nyaore, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:54 .