79 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

Agreed. There's enough time between shots to readjust.

[Arhka]

Mr_Raider wrote...

I'm less and less impressed with the Mattock. Shotgun adept for my next run...

It's fun. Plays a lot like the vanguard in ME1.

[JohnnyBeGood2]

RGFrog wrote...

Really, Johnny? I've not problem with going through a clip on the viper without even bothering to re-aim.
Sure, there's a little rise, but if you begin at the neck or upper chest that puts the majority of shots right in the head on a run.

you're probably right... i need to start lower

[Breakdown Boy]

When it comes to the muttock I am out of words!!! I love it, it's awsome!!! The control, the power, it feels like a high powered rifle, were as Vindicator (or whatever) feels like a toy. The sound FX are awsome, I just wish that the 22nd century could discover a way to change fire rates! I mean how dificult can it be to adjust the rate of fire of an assault rifle? All I want is this, single shot, triple shot, full auto! Is that to much to ask. And the small amount of ammo that the Vindicator and Muttock have is crazy. Totally unrealistic for special forces soldier to entre hostile territory with only 70 odd rounds! Heatsinks are so bloody small you would think they could carry hundreds of the stuff! I am not looking for umlimited ammo, just realistic figures.

[Kronner]

Breakdown Boy wrote...

When it comes to the muttock I am out of words!!! I love it, it's awsome!!! The control, the power, it feels like a high powered rifle, were as Vindicator (or whatever) feels like a toy. The sound FX are awsome, I just wish that the 22nd century could discover a way to change fire rates! I mean how dificult can it be to adjust the rate of fire of an assault rifle? All I want is this, single shot, triple shot, full auto! Is that to much to ask. And the small amount of ammo that the Vindicator and Muttock have is crazy. Totally unrealistic for special forces soldier to entre hostile territory with only 70 odd rounds! Heatsinks are so bloody small you would think they could carry hundreds of the stuff! I am not looking for umlimited ammo, just realistic figures.

Realism in videogames? Seriously? Gameplay >>> realism. That's why Mattock has limited ammo and for example Locust has small clip.

[numotsbane]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

RGFrog wrote...

Really, Johnny? I've not problem with going through a clip on the viper without even bothering to re-aim.
Sure, there's a little rise, but if you begin at the neck or upper chest that puts the majority of shots right in the head on a run.

you're probably right... i need to start lower

I find if you just give the viper time it automatically goes back to where it was at the last shot. You just need to hold off a bit on pulling the trigger quickly.

[implodinggoat]

Testing the Mattock vs. the Viper against a YMIR mech and calling it for the Viper isn't a proper test.



Engaging a single target is what Sniper Rifles excel at, engaging multiple targets is what assault rifles excel at. The Viper is great when you're scoping in on a single enemy; but it takes time to switch between targets.



With a Mattock in my Commando's hands I can easily drop 3 base level soldiers in a single heightened adrenaline rush, with the Viper I'd probably only get 1, maybe 2 if they were standing right next to each other.



I love the Mattock, at this point its my favorite gun in the whole game. Like the Vindicator its great for gunning down guys in cover; but it also gives you the capacity to rapidly drop an elite target, plus the sound it makes sounds like hell's fury.

[Anew614]

yo sinosleep could you do a Phalanx Heavy Pistol vs carnifex pistol comparasion.

[sinosleep]

implodinggoat wrote...

Testing the Mattock vs. the Viper against a YMIR mech and calling it for the Viper isn't a proper test.

Engaging a single target is what Sniper Rifles excel at, engaging multiple targets is what assault rifles excel at. The Viper is great when you're scoping in on a single enemy; but it takes time to switch between targets.

With a Mattock in my Commando's hands I can easily drop 3 base level soldiers in a single heightened adrenaline rush, with the Viper I'd probably only get 1, maybe 2 if they were standing right next to each other.

I love the Mattock, at this point its my favorite gun in the whole game. Like the Vindicator its great for gunning down guys in cover; but it also gives you the capacity to rapidly drop an elite target, plus the sound it makes sounds like hell's fury.

Here's the problem with tests involving multiple targets, you run into a ton of variables that are out of your control that adversely affect testing. It's why I do 1 to 1 tests on a YMIR mech where I can control the envioronment. The mechs do the same thing every time you charge while they are shooting, you step back, they shoot a rocket, and the second time around they shoot their machine gun till it empties. That's a control I can replicate over and over and over again.

Not only that, but this test was specifically prefaced by the the fact that many people call the mattock a viper without a scope. So I was testing to see if it could do what the viper could do. So even if single targets was the viper's forte (and honestly I don't partcularly buy that) it still fits the test.

Anew614 wrote...

yo sinosleep could you do a Phalanx Heavy Pistol vs carnifex pistol comparasion.

Yup, will do one soon.

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[PsyrenY]

Anew614 wrote...

yo sinosleep could you do a Phalanx Heavy Pistol vs carnifex pistol comparasion.

Seconding this; Phalanx seems to outclass it but I definitely would like hard data to back it up.

[OniGanon]

You don't need a video for that. I can already tell you the Carnifex and Predator have better DPS than the Phalanx. The Phalanx's strengths are highest damage per shot and greatest ammo efficiency among the pistols. The cost of these strengths is very low fire rate, crippling its DPS.



I would be interested in a comparison of point blank Carnifex vs point blank Phalanx + melee though.

[Simbacca]

OniGanon wrote...

...I would be interested in a comparison of point blank Carnifex vs point blank Phalanx + melee though.

Agreed.  A good and also pertinent place to test would be right here, as shown at the 0:50 mark in this video.  As you can see there, it took 4 Carnifex shots and a melee to destroy all of Harbinger's armor, though the damage was affected by Cloak in this particular instance.

[OniGanon]

That's actually exactly why I want that comparison. I want to know which pistol I should be shoving into Harbinger's eye.

[sinosleep]

OniGanon wrote...

You don't need a video for that. I can already tell you the Carnifex and Predator have better DPS than the Phalanx. The Phalanx's strengths are highest damage per shot and greatest ammo efficiency among the pistols. The cost of these strengths is very low fire rate, crippling its DPS.

I would be interested in a comparison of point blank Carnifex vs point blank Phalanx + melee though.

The video is up in the compilation thread, the phalanx outshot the predator and nearly caught the carnifex. It's extremely close to the carnifex in damage.

[PsyrenY]

OniGanon wrote...

You don't need a video for that. I can already tell you the Carnifex and Predator have better DPS than the Phalanx. The Phalanx's strengths are highest damage per shot and greatest ammo efficiency among the pistols. The cost of these strengths is very low fire rate, crippling its DPS.

I wouldn't call a 0.35s total time difference "crippled DPS." And again - laser = more headshots for most people, which = much, much higher dps, especially for the console crowd. And all that is before factoring the melee into the firing gaps.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 07 septembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[OniGanon]

Admittedly it seems I've very much underestimated its straight DPS. The reduced need for reloading let its DPS catch up much more than I expected.

But I think you'll find in practical use, what I said will hold much truer than what is seen in that vid. In general, you don't go about firing your pistol for 10s straight, because any enemy that has enough armour to warrant such a thing is also far too dangerous to be firing at constantly for that amount of time.

Also, getting headshots is not difficult with any pistol. This isn't the SMG class we're talking about, here.

Modifié par OniGanon, 07 septembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[implodinggoat]

sinosleep wrote...

implodinggoat wrote...

Testing the Mattock vs. the Viper against a YMIR mech and calling it for the Viper isn't a proper test.

Engaging a single target is what Sniper Rifles excel at, engaging multiple targets is what assault rifles excel at. The Viper is great when you're scoping in on a single enemy; but it takes time to switch between targets.

With a Mattock in my Commando's hands I can easily drop 3 base level soldiers in a single heightened adrenaline rush, with the Viper I'd probably only get 1, maybe 2 if they were standing right next to each other.

I love the Mattock, at this point its my favorite gun in the whole game. Like the Vindicator its great for gunning down guys in cover; but it also gives you the capacity to rapidly drop an elite target, plus the sound it makes sounds like hell's fury.

Here's the problem with tests involving multiple targets, you run into a ton of variables that are out of your control that adversely affect testing. It's why I do 1 to 1 tests on a YMIR mech where I can control the envioronment. The mechs do the same thing every time you charge while they are shooting, you step back, they shoot a rocket, and the second time around they shoot their machine gun till it empties. That's a control I can replicate over and over and over again.

Not only that, but this test was specifically prefaced by the the fact that many people call the mattock a viper without a scope. So I was testing to see if it could do what the viper could do. So even if single targets was the viper's forte (and honestly I don't partcularly buy that) it still fits the test.

I realize you can't reliably test the effectiveness against multiple targets, I was just trying to illustrate the biggest upside the Mattock has over the Viper is in its ability to rapidly engage multiple targets and in engaging targets at closer ranges where the Viper's scope becomes a liability.

The Mattock is really a weapon which shines when you use the Soldier's Adrenaline Rush power (consequently other classes caren't anywhere near as deadly with it as a soldier is.).  When using Adrenaline Rush you'll struggle to bring down multiple enemies with the Viper; but with the Mattock you can rapidly switch between targets allowing you to bring down multiple targets during the course of a single Adrenaline Rush.

The two weapons are definitely distinct and both have their advantages.  The Viper is a Sniper Rifle so its better at engaging a single target at longer ranges than the Mattock effectively can, while the Mattock's lack of scops makes it superior for engaging multiple targets at closer ranges where the Viper's scope becomes a liability.

[massranger]

Aradace wrote...

The only reason people dont like the Mattock is because it's not 3 shot burst (yes, it's 3 shot despite the description) like the Vindicator or full on Auto. And most people feel that Assault Rifles should be full auto. Well, the reality is this: The M-4 Carbine and the M-16 which the standard military use today are NOT full auto...That's right, they're NOT. They have the option of Semi-Auto and 3 shot burst. And remember, I said used by the military because the AK was phased out long ago except by foregin countries and against the M-4 and M-16, they are far inferior weapons.

I am curious, when was the AK ever a standard weapon, and in and in what country?  Never has been in the U.S. Also, the "Standard M-4 or M-16," what’s the standard?  Is it in an M-4A1, A2, A3, A4?  Plus there are variations of each. My point is when M-16's were used as the U.S. Army as it’s primary weapon, it was full auto, not because it's effective but because you need full auto to provide suppressive or cover fire to force the enemy to put their heads down preventing them from accurately acquiring their targets, allowing for others to move more safely towards their targets... "assaulting" their enemy, hence the term assault rifle.  In present day, most M-4's do not have full auto, this is because of the implementation of the M-249 SAW (Squad Automatic weapon).  The SAW is now used to lay down suppressive because it is more effective while being fired at full auto due to the fact that is belt fed, allowing more ammo, and fired from the open bolt position, keeping the chamber and bolt cooler.  

M-4's fire on semi-auto or three round burst can also be used to lay down suppressive fire, or set an ambush because it is still able to fire at a high rate of fire.  Weapons that are not full auto, or three round burst are not true assault rifles, no matter how many times politicians change the definition.  The rifle needs to have “select fire” to be classified as an assault rifle.
 
Also (I am an M-4 fan, well a 5.56 mm in general) M-4/M-16 does not always out perform AK style weapons. It depends what you are considering. AK’s, being a gas piston driven weapon inherently are more reliable and have a longer service life than an M-4, which direct impingement driven. Though there are companies that make M-4 style weapons using gas piston technology.
 
I digress….       
 
All of this irrelevant since the Mattock Heavy Rifle isn’t classified as an assault rife anyway, if I remember correctly. 
 
Forgive my rant.
 
This brings a new point for Mass Effect 3, make some assault rifles be semi auto or full auto, and others semi auto and three round burst, able to quickly switch back and forth during game play! 

[All-a-Mort]

massranger wrote...
Stuff about m16s and AKs etc (that I've trimmed)
 

I would've thought the Mattock was more analogous to say one of those revamped M14s (EBR maybe to the vipers' EMR) than an M16/M4 or AK anyway.

Select fire would be nice in ME3. Was kinda thinking the geth plasma shotgun should've been a secondary fire mode on the GPR (yes I know the GPR sort of already has a secondary mode where the fire rate changes), to make it more useful.  Dunno how you'd implement that though in ME3, especially for console gamers where the limited number of buttons are an issue with there already not being anything equivalent to the PCs hotkeys for handling squad powers and quick no-pause weapon switching.

[JaegerBane]

All-a-Mort wrote...

massranger wrote...
Stuff about m16s and AKs etc (that I've trimmed)
 

I would've thought the Mattock was more analogous to say one of those revamped M14s (EBR maybe to the vipers' EMR) than an M16/M4 or AK anyway.

Select fire would be nice in ME3. Was kinda thinking the geth plasma shotgun should've been a secondary fire mode on the GPR (yes I know the GPR sort of already has a secondary mode where the fire rate changes), to make it more useful.  Dunno how you'd implement that though in ME3, especially for console gamers where the limited number of buttons are an issue with there already not being anything equivalent to the PCs hotkeys for handling squad powers and quick no-pause weapon switching.

To be honest I don't really understand why they didn't just make the Mattock full auto anyway. It's RPM is absolutely ridiculous for a semi-auto weapon - it's faster than most full-auto guns in the game (I think it's only beaten by the bloomin Tempest, flamethrower and particle beam?)

[All-a-Mort]

JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest I don't really understand why they didn't just make the Mattock full auto anyway. It's RPM is absolutely ridiculous for a semi-auto weapon - it's faster than most full-auto guns in the game (I think it's only beaten by the bloomin Tempest, flamethrower and particle beam?)

I can only guess that it was the accuracy issue. That with the ridiculous accuracy it has as an assault rifle/battle rifle, if it was full auto and that accurate it would really render the Revenant pointless, as the Rev's higher clip size is only useful  due to the inaccuracy of that weapon fired at medium to long range, where the mattock excels. An accurate full auto mattock...well it really would be curtains for the Rev.

[Alamar2078]

The Mattock is a beast [at least in AR] ... Personally I prefer other weapons for non-Soldiers. Personally I'm fond of Sniper Rifle training for most folks. Some of the CQC folks can do the shotgun thing.

Edit:  As for ammo it helps if you're familiar with the map and ammo spawn points.  I virtually never run low on ammo but I've been known to switch weapons to finish guys off if I'm not pressured.

I like the Phalanx too. Often if something is hanging by a whisker of life and I'm not being pressured I will switch weapons and wipe it out. I also use it if someone is hanging out of cover by a whisker but, for some reason, I don't want to waste a sniper round on them. If I know that I'm going to be shooting a lot I prefer either of the other pistols though ... mostly just personal preference.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 04 octobre 2010 - 10:25 .

[JaegerBane]

All-a-Mort wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
To be honest I don't really understand why they didn't just make the Mattock full auto anyway. It's RPM is absolutely ridiculous for a semi-auto weapon - it's faster than most full-auto guns in the game (I think it's only beaten by the bloomin Tempest, flamethrower and particle beam?)

I can only guess that it was the accuracy issue. That with the ridiculous accuracy it has as an assault rifle/battle rifle, if it was full auto and that accurate it would really render the Revenant pointless, as the Rev's higher clip size is only useful  due to the inaccuracy of that weapon fired at medium to long range, where the mattock excels. An accurate full auto mattock...well it really would be curtains for the Rev.

A full auto mattock would burn it's clip in under 1.5 seconds (in other words, it would take longer to reload the weapon than it would to empty a clip). This isn't realistically any different to it's tap-happy performance under AR. A weapon that essentially shoots 16 shots at once wouldn't really fill the same role as a machine gun.

[RGFrog]

I don't know, JaegerBane. Having all 16 shots go at once in AR (or close enough to seem that way) would give me time to get to cover before AR runs out. Reload, repeat.

It would be the most awesome compliment to AR ever. Would make the widow, rev, heck pretty much everything obsolete on the Soldier providing you could find ammo for it.

Cast a squadie's overload or warp to take off most defenses, pop an ar, jack-in-the-box up, push button, drop back to cover. Reload, switch to pistol while everything cools down, repeat.