501 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

So against all odds, Loghain was right that Cailan really was planning on dumping Anora to marry Empress Celene? I did not honestly think anyone would be that stupid... Thoughts?

Edit: If you don't know what I'm talking about since in the game itself it doesn't confirm it one way or another, click here.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 08 septembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[cmessaz]

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

[sickserb]

but the priiiize...

[Crippledcarny]

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

I lol'd

[errant_knight]

I think there has to be a lot more to the story than we know, because whatever one thinks of Cailan, he cared about Ferelden--and I doubt he made such a drastic decision without Eamon's advice and support. That leads me to believe that there was something that made this a better--and safer--idea than it appears at face value.

Perhaps Mr. Gaider would care to fill us in on what that might be?

Modifié par errant_knight, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[DOYOURLABS]

Can you blame him?

[okiness]

Is Eamon where we're going? Eamon supported him so he's right? If anything, I think Eamon did it to further himself in the big noble game and Cailan was just naive enough to listen.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Cailan became my top 1 person I want to slap. Cammen was the first before then.

[Sarah1281]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Can you blame him?

Can we blame who for what? Cailan for - unless we're told otherwise - basically selling out his country for a shiny new title? 

This conversation comes to mind I still can't believe he was actually right and I like him. :

[*]Loghain: The cheating bastard!
[*]Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!
[*]Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?
[*]Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.
[*]Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ****, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
[*]Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
[*]Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.

[Never]

Sweet, when did we learn this?

[Crippledcarny]

Eamon only cares about keeping the family line going and Anora clearly wasn't up to the job.

[RavenousBear]

He seemed to be a child in a man's body in my opinion. Now I was not expecting something like this to be revealed, but then I am not surprised that Cailan would agree to such an idea.

[Sarah1281]

mynameisdanza wrote...

Sweet, when did we learn this?

phaonica wrote...

Ok, I quickly transcribed what DG said in that interview:

Question: Did Anora's infertility have anything to do with Cailan leaving her for the Empress of Orlais?
DG: Yes. They don't know for sure that she's infertile, but she wasn't having a child, and so Cailan was responding to advice that he was getting that was saying that maybe he had to marry someone because the Theirin bloodline wasn't exactly spreading out that much. He was the only son, or the only known son of Maric at the time, and Maric himself was the last of his line, so if Cailan didn't have a child, it opened up the possiblity of civil war in Ferelden once again.

References:

Dragon Age 2 PAX Day 3 David Gaider Interview
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107
(17:16)

[Maconbar]

It would be the smart thing to do. A royal couple's first job is to provide an heir. Queen's have been set aside for failing this. The reign of Henry VIII of England is probably the most common example.

[DOYOURLABS]

Sarah1281 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Can you blame him?

Can we blame who for what? Cailan for - unless we're told otherwise - basically selling out his country for a shiny new title? 

[*]

I hated Anora, he probably did too. And a united Ferelden-Orlais would be much better against the darkspawn.

[Sarah1281]

Maconbar wrote...

It would be the smart thing to do. A royal couple's first job is to provide an heir. Queen's have been set aside for failing this. The reign of Henry VIII of England is probably the most common example.

Yes but why would it have been a good idea, out of all the Ferelden noblewomen or even Orlesian noblewomen who don't happen to be the Empress, for Cailan to marry the Empress? 

[Sarah1281]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Can you blame him?

Can we blame who for what? Cailan for - unless we're told otherwise - basically selling out his country for a shiny new title? 


[*]

I hated Anora, he probably did too. And a united Ferelden-Orlais would be much better against the darkspawn.

They could unite against the darkspawn without Ferelden losing its independence by merging the nations. And even if he were to set aside Anora there is no reason to marry Celene. Hell, he could marry her younger sister if she had one and it would still be better for Ferelden than marrying the Empress.

[Never]

Thanks for the link Sarah.

And wow, it just doesn't make sense. I mean why not just make a few heirs on the side with a Fereldan woman at least. I really dislike Anora, but this is way beyond how stupid I thought Cailan was.

[Addai]

I always liked Cailan, and I think this would have been disastrous. Diplomatic ties with Orlais, yes. Intermarriage between lesser nobles, okay- controversial, unpopular, but ok. But this would have been a deeply unpopular move, not just the Orlais part, but Cailan setting Anora aside. Five years is not a long time to give your marriage a chance to produce an heir. Of course, we don't really know what was going on inside the marriage. Anora never re-marries, so there is the possibility she was not .... how to put this delicately... not taking the production of an heir seriously.

Still, if that's the case, you look to Highever, not to Orlais. Maybe you look to the Free Marches so that you can form an alliance that will counterweight Orlais.

Dumb, Cailan. Really dumb.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[cmessaz]

Addai67 wrote...

I always liked Cailan, and I think this would have been disastrous. Diplomatic ties with Orlais, yes. Intermarriage between lesser nobles, okay- controversial, unpopular, but ok. But this would have been a deeply unpopular move, not just the Orlais part, but Cailan setting Anora aside. Five years is not a long time to give your marriage a chance to produce an heir. Of course, we don't really know what was going on inside the marriage. Anora never re-marries, so there is the possibility she was not .... how to put this delicately... not taking the production of an heir seriously.

Still, if that's the case, you look to Highever, not to Orlais. Maybe you look to the Free Marches so that you can form an alliance that will counterweight Orlais.

Dumb, Cailan. Really dumb.

You know, I wonder this too. She doesn't seem the type to.....take production of an heir seriously lol.

Modifié par cmessaz, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Coming from you Addai, this means a lot

[Asepsis]

sickserb wrote...

but the priiiize...

LOL!!!!!

Anyway, does this conversation with Loghain and Wynne happen during the Return to Ostagar quest?

Loghain really has a personal vendetta against Orlais (Can't blame him) but I honestly think Cailan loved his wife (Fact that he argued with Eamon over her). However, he is descended from Maric so he might be a little easy when it comes to falling for chicks. I'm guessing he had honest intentions of forming a strong alliance with Orlais, but he started liking the Empress, or the Empress just liked Cailan, who knows?

It probably would have lead to civil war though, especially because Anora is Loghain's daughter and the Orlesian occupation was only 30 or so years prior. That's why letting the Grey Wardens from Orlais in would have been an excellent idea, especially with them helping to end the blight. It would have sort of smoothed over some of the crap Orlais put Ferelden through and made the idea of an Orlesian/Ferelden alliance easier for Fereldans to possibly accept later on.

[jackkel dragon]

I think I'm one of the few that doesn't think Cailan is stupid. Short-sighted, perhaps, and unable to grasp the larger picture, but he's not as big an idiot as people seem to think.

From Return to Ostagar, the "survivor" can tell the Warden that Cailan knew the battle of Ostagar would be lost unless he waited for reinforcements. Cailan fought the battle anyway. Why? For the glory. He knew he couldn't win, but he didn't want to admit he had his limits. He wanted to be like the kings in the tales (Hafter, I believe) who fought against the archdemon and granted victory to the Grey Wardens. He constantly berated Loghain's (understandable) bias against Orlais because the Grey Wardens and Chevaliers could have salvaged the battle at Ostagar.

This same Cailan is the one that is unwilling to allow the Theirin line to end because his wife is barren. While he married Anora to unite the Theirin and Mac Tir families, he was ready to throw that away to make sure the line of Calenhad and Maric continued. By marrying into the royal family of Orlais, he could also become an Emperor and gain more of the glory from his childhood tales. Cailan was raised on the stories of his heroic father (see the epilogue of the Stolen Throne) and is not willing to fade into history. If he has to unite Ferelden with Orlais to gain his glory, he will do so.

Another point that Loghain has right: Eamon is the Theirin puppetmaster. I have no idea what Eamon may have been doing to support uniting with Orlais with Cailan, but DAO shows he is very willing to put a weak king on the throne to keep power away from his rivals.

Cailan may not have an independant Ferelden's best interests at heart, and he may misunderstand the stubbornness of the Ferelden people when it comes to oppression, and he may be a glory hound, but he is not an idiot. He wants his name to be remembered, to rival his father's accomplishments. If that means abandoning Loghain and Anora to side with Celene and Orlais, he is willing to do that. And, as DAO shows us, he is willing to fight a battle that cannot be won in an attempt to prove that he won't be denyed his glory.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Coming from you Addai, this means a lot

Heh, well I never said I like Orlais.  None of my PCs who are more political want to be too cozy with Orlais, other than in matters of trade and cultural exchange.

And no, cultural exchange is not a euphemism.  [zevran] Not this once, no.  [/zevran]  LOL