501 réponses à ce sujet

[Giggles_Manically]

ANARCHY NOW!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ANARCHY NOW!

:wub::wub::wub::wub:

[Dean_the_Young]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

I suppose mentioning how it's not even remotely the same thing isn't going to get me anywhere?

It's very much a similarity. Not all tribes fought the invading whites. There were several tribes that signed agreements to allow white men to settle their lands, spread their religion, ect, thinking that such an alliance would make them more propserous and wealthy and advanced like the white man was. They would adopt the customs, religion, and dress of the whites because they thought it would make their lives better.

They were horribly wrong, and suffered, in many ways, far worse than those who fought off the invaders.

If you count most of them giving up their native american identities and being assimilated and lost amongs the greater mass of the American population as far worse than killed, repeated driven off lands, and then forcibly relocated onto subpar lands of reservations.

But hey. Priorities.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

@ Dean. Anyways, we are going in circles and are repeating the same arguments. You believe that a merger with Orlais will not result in Ferelden's loss of self determination and would not be economically subserviant, and would not threaten her culture. You do not believe that Ferelden is better off with its independence and sovereignity. I completely disagree. And its' very likely that we could keep this discussion going forever. So if you want, maybe we could just leave it at that. Or continue for eternity, whatever you like, as we seem to be arguing about principles and paradigms more than facts.

Sure. Very generous of your to insist on the last word with a long rebuttal followed by a strawman, but hey. Peace.

[Giggles_Manically]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ANARCHY NOW!

:wub::wub::wub::wub:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure. Very generous of your to insist on the last word with a long rebuttal followed by a strawman, but hey. Peace.

The discussion seems more to be about the Roman Empire and other much broader issues and not really the heart of this particular issue. But I am not insisting on anything. We can continue this if you so desire.   

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ANARCHY NOW!

:wub::wub::wub::wub:

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

ANARCHY NOW!

:wub::wub::wub::wub:

[Sarah1281]

Follow-up: 

[Dean_the_Young]

My ninja cat gives an amazingly lifelike impression of your dog assassin.

[Elhanan]

If Cailan was considering getting involved with another woman in politics, thus making two women with ginormous control issues in his life, he was not thinking; just reacting to his lusts like Zev.

Must be the hair....

[CalJones]

Well, he is blond.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So against all odds, Loghain was right that Cailan really was planning on dumping Anora to marry Empress Celene? I did not honestly think anyone would be that stupid... Thoughts? 

Making yourself a de facto fief of the country that you fought a revolution to get rid of about 30 years ago?

Only one word can sum up that plan: Glorious!

LOL. Glorious!

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It's very much a similarity. Not all tribes fought the invading whites. There were several tribes that signed agreements to allow white men to settle their lands, spread their religion, ect, thinking that such an alliance would make them more propserous and wealthy and advanced like the white man was. They would adopt the customs, religion, and dress of the whites because they thought it would make their lives better.

They were horribly wrong, and suffered, in many ways, far worse than those who fought off the invaders.

The only tribes that did anything you said with the idea of prosperity or greener grass was the Cherokees and maybe the Siouxs, and they ironically got treated the worst by the United States. I never heard of any tribe voting on  or approving the Allotment Act which pretty much doomed natives to assimilation or poverty on the reservations, but that is a waaaaaaaaaaay left field topic, and this is hardly the forum to debate it, or else Seagloom will come in and lock this shizzle.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:49 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Nope Seagloom is no longer a mod.

He/She apparently left of their own will... after killing the largest threads and locking down a few others for a while.

I smell malarkey.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you count most of them giving up their native american identities and being assimilated and lost amongs the greater mass of the American population as far worse than killed, repeated driven off lands, and then forcibly relocated onto subpar lands of reservations.

But hey. Priorities.

Uh yeah, I do. It's like a toss up between a slow, painful, humiliating death on your knees vs a quick one on your feet.

Because those who surrendered and assimilated were still repeatedly killed, driven off lands, infected with disease, sent to dumpy wastelands, relocated again, ect.

The end result was the same. The road to the end result for both options was different.

[maxernst]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
More importantly, a marriage to Celene isn't a return to the occupation. Orlesian nobles aren't going to swarm over and supplant Ferlden nobles. Orlesian troops aren't going to march over either, to make way so that the Chevaliers can rape whoever they please. Orlais already knows that doesn't work. Ferelden nobles will still rule over Fereldens, and to keep the marriage union intact (and to keep Cailan on the Ferelden throne) they can't do whatever atrocities of the occupiers you envision, as it wouldn't have a point and would lose their influence. Plenty of unions between states have collapsed because of such attempts.

Perhaps not a blunt occupation, but an absorbption. No weak states merges with a stronger one and retains its independence and sovereignity or be on a equal footing.

Orlais is the major power in Thedas, rich, more populated, relatively highly civilised, has immense cultural influence (via the chantry). Ferelden on the otherhand is considered a backwater, poor, barely civilised. Via commerce and culture, Orlais would absorb Ferelden with ease without needing to invade. And most nobles accepted Orlesian occupation before, I am sure a lot more will be willing to participate in this less bloody merger if given incentives.
Add the fact that the heirs to the throne will most likely be raised in Orlais and be for al intents and purposes Orlesian.

So while it might not be a military invasion, it's still an invasion on Ferelden's sovereignity and independence that will get accelerated over the years. If you consider Ferleden's independence irrelevent, then yea sure you couldn't care less. But it is emphasised that Fereldans are very independent and there was no way this would have gone smoothly.

Ultimately, this is probably true, though it might have taken a long time.  The historical precedent that pops first to mind for me is the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella.  The Kingdoms of Aragon and Castile continued to exist under one monarch for about two centuries, but Aragon's autonomy, poltical influence and economic strength eroded over time.  I am less familiar with the history of Austria-Hungary, but I'm guessing it's similar.

[CalJones]

[Addai]

MariSkep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

Them being slowly absorbed is in fact worse than full scale invasion.

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because at least you know who the enemy is and are given the chance to fight for your freedom and independence. If you don't care about those values, then of course it won't be better for you.

Are you anymore free under the Fereldan crown than under the Orlesian? And would the affairs of the throne even affect the lives of the common folk who answer to the local Bann, Arl or Teryn?

(husband posting)

It's not just the "affairs of the throne", its the culture.   The Chevaliers have a license to rape anything that moves.  You really want that coming back to Ferelden?

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain obviously didnt.

[Herr Uhl]

CalJones wrote...

At least she wasn't an elf.

[Giggles_Manically]

Loghain looks really pissed off in that pic.



I have that face to right now.

[WingsandRings]

Addai67 wrote...


It could be he simply assumes it was diplomatic and not a marriage negotiation.  Let's recall that none of us were sure until today, either.  And Loghain is still a traitor.  Regardless of whether you think Cailan was wrong or not, it was for the Landsmeet to tell him so, not an advisor via plots and poisons.

I know this is from several pages ago, but what do you mean by "let's recall that none of us were sure until today either."  What happened today that shed light on it? Witch Hunt came out, but I don't remember anything about that in the DLC.

[Sarah1281]

WingsandRings wrote...

Addai67 wrote...


It could be he simply assumes it was diplomatic and not a marriage negotiation.  Let's recall that none of us were sure until today, either.  And Loghain is still a traitor.  Regardless of whether you think Cailan was wrong or not, it was for the Landsmeet to tell him so, not an advisor via plots and poisons.

I know this is from several pages ago, but what do you mean by "let's recall that none of us were sure until today either."  What happened today that shed light on it? Witch Hunt came out, but I don't remember anything about that in the DLC.

That was actually from two ago and not today. There was a podcast from DG that confirmed this. Twice.