501 réponses à ce sujet

[WingsandRings]

Thanks, Sarah. Yeah, after I wrote it, I realized it had been stamped as over a day ago, but I was too lazy to edit.

[WingsandRings]

double post

Modifié par WingsandRings, 08 septembre 2010 - 04:14 .

[Wedger]

Herr Uhl wrote...

CalJones wrote...

At least she wasn't an elf.

Or a mage

[CalJones]

Heh.

I think all the excitement over Cailan's betrayal has been crushed by the arrival of Witch Hunt.

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...

Heh.
I think all the excitement over Cailan's betrayal has been crushed by the arrival of Witch Hunt.

And, more specifically, by the fifty threads every other idiot who got the DLC feels the need to start.

[Giggles_Manically]

The search button once again remains an illusive beaste for the forumites.

[saruman85]

Sarah1281 wrote...
And, more specifically, by the fifty threads every other idiot who got the DLC feels the need to start.

Deep breaths, Sarah, deep breaths.

[Sarah1281]

They don't even need a search button as it's already dominating the front page.

[Kaptain K N00b]

Well unless I am missing something, and please do correct me if i am, what i gathered from the return to ostagar notes, while it does STRONGLY hints (mainly thanks to Arl Eamon) that Cailan might have considered leaving Anora for Empress Celene, there is no clear evidence either that their letters towards each other are more than friendly correspondence between two rulers of two nations. I think this is done on purpose to let the player be the judge and in a certain way stand in Loghain's shoes.

[saruman85]

Sarah1281 wrote...
They don't even need a search button as it's already dominating the front page.

But it's a romance-related issue, dammit! Why won't my digitized simulated girlfriend recognize my simulated relationship with her and that I had digitized sex with her! Manly grunt!  <_<

/sarcasm

[Sarah1281]

Kaptain K N00b wrote...

Well unless I am missing something, and please do correct me if i am, what i gathered from the return to ostagar notes, while it does STRONGLY hints (mainly thanks to Arl Eamon) that Cailan might have considered leaving Anora for Empress Celene, there is no clear evidence either that their letters towards each other are more than friendly correspondence between two rulers of two nations. I think this is done on purpose to let the player be the judge and in a certain way stand in Loghain's shoes.

You're right, that's all there is in game. This podcast from David Gaider, however, confirms that Loghain was actually right.

[Lurklen]

I don't know that I'd consider Cailan an idiot per say. More like someone who was both never allowed to fail while also never being encouraged to try very hard. Someone allowed, even encoureged to wallow in their ignorence.I mean think about it Maric was never really around and wasn't the greatest politician to begin with, so he had Loghain,Anora and Eamon pretty much from before he was even king running his life. So much of his life would have been spent being told what to do by very powerful personalities who wouldn't really want him to become politically savvy as that would cause them to lose their ability to control the throne through him. All the while he would be being placated and told how amazing he was because hey he's king.

Loghain might not have even been ruining him on purpose really, he's just so paranoid and conceded that he never thought anyone could rule the country without him and if no one could do it better than him he should just do it ,even if it was only behined the scenes. And sure the plan to marry into the Orlesiens might have gone horribly and could have led to Orlesien control of Ferelden. But that could have gone the other way too, if they'd had a child and the Empress was dead their kid would have a solid claim to both thrones. Putting a Ferelden on the throne of Orlais is the kind of plot Eamon and Cailan might think up. And it's not the worst plan just very very risky. If anyone had actually trained Cailan in courtly intrigue he might have been able to pull it off. And the battle at Ostagar, as far as I'm concerned that was Loghain's failing Cailan wanted the Orlesian reinforcements there but was willing to do without them given their current strategy, which would have worked had Loghain actually followed the plan. 

 Cailan was the product of his training, he knew just enough about how to be king to think he could lead, but was never actually taught how to do so. In fact his mistaken belief in his own ability only made it harder for others to control him. This is why he either should have been properly taught to rule or swiftly disabused of any notions that he was a capable monarch, a puppet needs it's will broken. Otherwise you end up with someone too ignorant to be useful but just smart enough to screw up all of your plans.
 

Modifié par Lurklen, 08 septembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[Alcanazar]

The Mrs here.

Celene has been dealing with Cailan since he was little. That big, fancy book about Maric? A gift from Celene. She's visited Ferelden before, always with gifts and goodies. They've known each other a long time.

At Ostagar, Cailan says he remembers Loghain's plan. So either he magically learned it, or they'd gone over it at another time. In terms of play it's vital it be gone over for the Warden to learn. This is also when Alistair is deputized to help the Warden, a decision Cailan makes that, in retrospect, was to protect his brother & heir. Eamon's letter hints at both the upcoming alliance with Orlais, and the need for an heir now, which is why Alistair is sprung from the Chantry.

Anora is failing her most important duty: She hasn't produced an heir. Nothing else she does matters.To modern eyes this is wrong. In their world it's her job.

Without an heir, it doesn't much matter what Cailan, Anora or Joe Average Ferelden wants. No heir means a civil war. In fact we need to remember that Cailan is apparently the only thing keeping Ferelden from collapsing into chaos: as soon as he's gone the whole place erupts. Anora's statement about him going around to play warrior may well mean riding around to keep the various arls & banns in line.  If Loghain or Anora were as effective as they want us to believe, there wouldn't have been a civil war; there would have been some unrest, from Eamon and possibly Highever, but that would have been stopped before things got out of hand. Instead there's a full-blown civil war on top of the invading Blight.

Celene is in the same situation as Cailan. She has no heir. She needs a husband who is her equal in rank; an Orlesian noble would be too ambitious and thus too dangerous. So like most ruling Queens, she looks for a foreign king. Cailan, her longtime friend, is the ideal choice: he's the neighboring ruler and his father defeated them.

Maric's victory means that Cailan will be negotiating from a position of strength, not weakness despite the relative wealth of the realms. A good historical example is the wedding that ended the 30 Years' War. The Spanish Empire was vastly wealthier than France, but France had the victories and that was what mattered. France was not absorbed by Spain, nor did Spain have much influence in France.  There is really no reason to assume that an alliance between Orlais & Ferelden would require that Ferelden become a vassal of Orlais instead of an equal partner.

[Reika]

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. Honestly, I see Cailan as the perfect example of good intentions paving the road to hell.



Cailan was a good man and a rotten king. Not all of it being his fault either, I think Maric and whomever Cailan's tutors were did him a great disservice in not training him up to the duties required by the throne. But as an adult he could've started thinking for himself, but probably at that point he was so used to letting other people do the thinking for him that he just was interested in glory.



As an aside, I thought it was strange that Cailan didn't marry Anora until after Maric was dead. Was there any reasons for that? Also I haven't seen anywhere, but was there a cause of death given for Maric? Since he was of an age with Loghain and Bryce Cousland who were both still vigorous men, I doubt he died from old age.

[Monica21]

Reika wrote...
As an aside, I thought it was strange that Cailan didn't marry Anora until after Maric was dead. Was there any reasons for that? Also I haven't seen anywhere, but was there a cause of death given for Maric? Since he was of an age with Loghain and Bryce Cousland who were both still vigorous men, I doubt he died from old age.

Maric died at sea. I'm not sure if it's ever stated where he was going, but I don't believe his body was ever found.

[Khazar-Khum]

Monica21 wrote...

Reika wrote...
As an aside, I thought it was strange that Cailan didn't marry Anora until after Maric was dead. Was there any reasons for that? Also I haven't seen anywhere, but was there a cause of death given for Maric? Since he was of an age with Loghain and Bryce Cousland who were both still vigorous men, I doubt he died from old age.

Maric died at sea. I'm not sure if it's ever stated where he was going, but I don't believe his body was ever found.

No reasons for the delay in marriage are given. Maybe Maric was looking for a way out, for a better political alliance.

Loghain and Maric were shipwrecked; Loghain was somehow the only survivor.  He's rather...lucky, isn't he? Somehow surviving Ostagar, too.

[Monica21]

Khazar-Khum wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Reika wrote...
As an aside, I thought it was strange that Cailan didn't marry Anora until after Maric was dead. Was there any reasons for that? Also I haven't seen anywhere, but was there a cause of death given for Maric? Since he was of an age with Loghain and Bryce Cousland who were both still vigorous men, I doubt he died from old age.

Maric died at sea. I'm not sure if it's ever stated where he was going, but I don't believe his body was ever found.

No reasons for the delay in marriage are given. Maybe Maric was looking for a way out, for a better political alliance.

Loghain and Maric were shipwrecked; Loghain was somehow the only survivor.  He's rather...lucky, isn't he? Somehow surviving Ostagar, too.

Um, nowhere does it state that Loghain and Maric were on the same ship.

[Reika]

Okay, let me get this straight. Maric is presumed to have died at sea, but no body recovered? Was it the entire ship, or just Maric?



Hmm, could be an interesting future plot point. Wouldn't be the first time someone survived "death at sea", that includes RL.

[Monica21]

I honestly can't remember if parts of the ship washed ashore somewhere or if it never reached its destination. And there might even have been word on it from Gaider at some point. The last time I remember this being brought up was too long ago.

[Addai]

Monica21 wrote...

I honestly can't remember if parts of the ship washed ashore somewhere or if it never reached its destination. And there might even have been word on it from Gaider at some point. The last time I remember this being brought up was too long ago.

Don't think we know that.  Gaider just said in the forums that Maric was lost at sea and that "sometimes people just die."

[Collider]

What was Cailan thinking?

GLORY

[Herr Uhl]

Addai67 wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

I honestly can't remember if parts of the ship washed ashore somewhere or if it never reached its destination. And there might even have been word on it from Gaider at some point. The last time I remember this being brought up was too long ago.

Don't think we know that.  Gaider just said in the forums that Maric was lost at sea and that "sometimes people just die."

He is probably in Llomerynn trying to get laid with the elven wenches.

[Bruddajakka]

Cailen think? Surely you just. If Cailen was thinking he would have had Loghain removed as they head of his armies, or assassinated before he even considered going through with something like this.

[Costin_Razvan]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Cailen think? Surely you just. If Cailen was thinking he would have had Loghain removed as they head of his armies, or assassinated before he even considered going through with something like this.

Very very true.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

Cailen think? Surely you just. If Cailen was thinking he would have had Loghain removed as they head of his armies, or assassinated before he even considered going through with something like this.

Very very true.

I think the line "You will remeber who is king" showed that he thought he could just order Loghain around and make him see his point.

Then that makes him more of an idiot if he missed that.