501 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Cailan is one of the more able leaders in the game, though that may reflect the generally poor quality of leadership of Ferelden at this time

[CalJones]

Able? I dismiss this claim.

[Reika]

I'm really not seeing how Cailan was an able leader. The boy in a man's body was occupied with tales and glory. I outgrew believing that life could be like fantasy when I was still a kid before even going to grade school, it was disgusting to see a man around my age irl being so lost to daydreams like that.



Truthfully, I'm not even sure how Loghain was considered a great general. You don't have your archers on the front lines like that, they made no use of the "heavy artillery" your combat mages are capable of being, sending unarmored or lightly armored dogs as shock troopers isn't real bright.



You keep your lightly armored ranged behind the more heavily armored front troops. Your shock troops should be in massive armor with metal shields to break open holes in the front lines of the enemies troops so that it's easier for the rest to start picking the enemies apart.



And I'm no great strategist myself, but that's basic sense.

[CalJones]

I wouldn't base Loghain's strategic genius on what certain artists, animators and game designers thought looked good in a cut-scene.

[Obadiah]

Is there a cannon evaluation for Loghain's judgment for withdrawing from Ostagar? Loghain and his troops clearly think they would have lost due to Cailin's plan, but Alistair thinks they were winning until Loghain quit the field.

Has any writer come out and said whether the battle would have been won if Loghain had stayed?

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:53 .

[Bahlgan]

Obadiah wrote...

Is there a cannon evaluation for Loghain's judgment for withdrawing from Ostagar? Loghain and his troops clearly think they would have lost due to Cailin's plan, but Alistair thinks they were winning until Loghain quit the field.

Has any writer come out and said whether the battle would have been won if Loghain had stayed?

We've been trying to figure this out for quite a while now. I myself believe the latter, seeing as to how Loghain had conspired on several counts beforehand. Poisoning Arl Eamon, taking contribution in slaying most of the Cousland family, and a few other crimes as well.

[Obadiah]

Bahlgan wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Is there a cannon evaluation for Loghain's judgment for withdrawing from Ostagar? Loghain and his troops clearly think they would have lost due to Cailin's plan, but Alistair thinks they were winning until Loghain quit the field.

Has any writer come out and said whether the battle would have been won if Loghain had stayed?

We've been trying to figure this out for quite a while now. I myself believe the latter, seeing as to how Loghain had conspired on several counts beforehand. Poisoning Arl Eamon, taking contribution in slaying most of the Cousland family, and a few other crimes as well.

There certainly was something amis. Does Loghain explain why he attacked (or allowed Howe to attack) the Couslands? Was Howe even acting with Loghain at that point?

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Herr Uhl]

Bahlgan wrote...

We've been trying to figure this out for quite a while now. I myself believe the latter, seeing as to how Loghain had conspired on several counts beforehand. Poisoning Arl Eamon,

Important, not trying to assassinate him

taking contribution in slaying most of the Cousland family, and a few other crimes as well.

It has been explained that Howe acted on his own there. Later Loghain was forced to use Howe as an ally.

[CalJones]

There is no definitive answer - it's left open to interpretation (rather fittingly, in fact, as the player has no view of the battlefield during the game).

David Gaider's commented on it here and here.

As the lead writer, his word pretty much trumps anyone else's.

[Bahlgan]

Obadiah wrote...

There certainly was something amis. Does Loghain explain why he attacked (or allowed Howe to attack) the Couslands? Was Howe even acting with Loghain at that point?

It certainly seemed that way, how else would Loghain and Howe rise to power? The deaths of the Couslands, save my Warden, was the boost which put Howe as the new Teryn of Highever, and in league with Loghain so that he could provide support during the attack by the Bannorn; or at least that's what I am under the impression of.

[Bahlgan]

It has been explained that Howe acted on his own there. Later Loghain was forced to use Howe as an ally.

Hmm? Said by a moderator or a dev?

[Herr Uhl]

Bahlgan wrote...

It has been explained that Howe acted on his own there. Later Loghain was forced to use Howe as an ally.

Hmm? Said by a moderator or a dev?

Said by Gaider.

[Alauzhen]

Logically, it was a Lore from a game. Treated much like History. We read in History about the multitude of blunders made by supposedly great tacticians or strategists leading to their own downfall.



Loghain's story could be that he merely had the horrendous judgement that the battle could not be won without significant casualties. Thus in order to win the war, he decided to conserve his troops for a more important battle. And of course, potentially gaining the throne in the process was a big bonus on his end.



He hated Maric and Cailin for wanting the Grey Wardens back in Ferelden, and his impression of Wardens were that they are Orlesian spies/usurpers who were out to reestablish control over Ferelden.



He's thinking for Ferelden, though I can't say I agree fully with his methods of execution. ;P

[Bahlgan]

While all this information explained calmly by Gaider certainly opens up my mind to why Loghain had performed his "acts of righteousness" because he felt that he was the only one to have felt in control of being able to rid the darkspawn, I still see the man as a faulty and traitorous bastard. The ends do not necessarily justify the means, and I am sure there are plenty of others to have found less violent means.

If Gaider states, however, that Loghain wasn't planning on having Cailan killed, then that is something I can deal with; but we DO know he was planning on poisoning Arl Eamon, just actually having HIM killed would have been an accident. It doesn't matter though, the arl still would have perished a slow and painful death because of his actions.

Loghain's story could be that he merely had the horrendous judgement that the battle could not be won without significant casualties. Thus in order to win the war, he decided to conserve his troops for a more important battle. And of course, potentially gaining the throne in the process was a big bonus on his end.

I am still under the impression that Loghain wanted power on the throne to begin with, likely because he thought Cailan was an incompetent and foolish king. Granted he is far too much an idealist, but I am not going to defame him for it. Unless said by Gaider, or some other dev who was shared the conclusion, I still hold Loghain in contempt for his desire to steal the throne.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Wulfram]

CalJones wrote...

There is no definitive answer - it's left open to interpretation (rather fittingly, in fact, as the player has no view of the battlefield during the game).
David Gaider's commented on it here and here.
As the lead writer, his word pretty much trumps anyone else's.

The problem is, the version of Loghain he favours ends up looking weak and incompetent, as well as treacherous.  So I prefer to stick with what is presented in the game, so that he can at least be a credible antagonist.

[Reika]

Wulfram wrote...

CalJones wrote...

There is no definitive answer - it's left open to interpretation (rather fittingly, in fact, as the player has no view of the battlefield during the game).
David Gaider's commented on it here and here.
As the lead writer, his word pretty much trumps anyone else's.

The problem is, the version of Loghain he favours ends up looking weak and incompetent, as well as treacherous.  So I prefer to stick with what is presented in the game, so that he can at least be a credible antagonist.

Have to agree with you there. Loghain is one of my favorite antagonists because in the game he's doing what he feels is right. I think he was delusional, but he wasn't evil for the sake of being evil. Just another example of good intentions paving the road to hell.

Hm, between Loghain and Cailan, we seem to have a superhighway...

[Obadiah]

Despite Loghain's dishonorable behavior towards Arl Eamon, the Couslands, and Cailin, it seems Cailin was behaving rashly, and Loghain thought he would lose the battle at Ostagar and retreated. That gives the story a new perspective for me.

Although, I would rather that Loghain had sent some word to Cailin that the plan should be re-evaluated once the darkspawn made their appearance.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Herr Uhl]

Obadiah wrote...

Despite Loghain's dishonorable behavior towards Arl Eamon, the Couslands, and Cailin, it seems Cailin was behaving rashly, and Loghain thought he would lose the battle at Ostagar and retreated. That gives the story a new perspective for me.

Although, I would rather that Loghain had sent some word to Cailin that the plan should be re-evaluated once the darkspawn made their appearance.

Battle-plans change.Cailan risked his life by being in the front lines. Arl Eamon was in on the plot to divorce Anora, that might have had something to do with it, if Loghain had any idea about it.

[Obadiah]

Wulfram wrote...

CalJones wrote...

There is no definitive answer - it's left open to interpretation (rather fittingly, in fact, as the player has no view of the battlefield during the game).
David Gaider's commented on it here and here.
As the lead writer, his word pretty much trumps anyone else's.

The problem is, the version of Loghain he favours ends up looking weak and incompetent, as well as treacherous.  So I prefer to stick with what is presented in the game, so that he can at least be a credible antagonist.

Loghain as presented by Gaider does not seem polically competent, hence he tries to neutralize his opponents using means other than arguments. He doesn't seem "weak" to me since his plan would have probably worked (well except for killing the archdemon part) if not for the Warden.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[PCousland]

I don't see why people are hating on Celene if I recall she had no problems with Ferelden and never had a hand in the crap that occured. Judging her by how one of her possible family members(or non-family members) acts makes no sense what so ever. Loghain was not justified in his paranoia best way to sum up how he was is a Conspiracist whack job from today who thinks everyone has a conspiracy going.



As for everyone looking down on Cailin I don't see the point in it. Maric was supposed to wed Rowan but cast her aside for an elf of all things (sure he did marry Rowan, but it wouldn't have happen if Loghain hadn't told her that she needed too.) Loghain had a thing for forsaking others for what he believed to be best for Ferelden which also kept him away from his wife and Anora. It also blinded him to the threat at Ostagar and to the fact that it was a real blight.



Also as for Eamon being a puppetmaster, I don't see it. The reason to put Alistair on the throne is a valid one even if he would have been weak. Ferelden highly revers the Calenhad bloodline and with Maric and Cailin dead the only one left of said bloodline is Alistair. Alistair had a stronger claim to the throne than Anora, Eamon, or even Teagan as all had claims by marriage, but Alistairs was by blood.



Also the endings don't seem to portray Alistair as a weak or even as a pushover King as he becomes someone loved by all. As for Anora never re-marrying we don't know that for sure (we have no idea if Alistair being King alone or Alistair being King and married to Anora are the canonical choices, especially considering DA 2 is supposed to make use of the choices players made.) Though I always went with the Alistair and Anora marrying as it made the most sense to me. Of another note not just Eamon becomes an adviser to Alistair, Wynne does as well which I think would make it pretty hard for Eamon to be a puppeteer.

[Reika]

Obadiah wrote...


Loghain as presented by Gaider does not seem polically competent, hence he tries to neutralize his opponents using means other than arguments.He doesn't seem "weak" to me since his plan would have probably worked (well except for killing the archdemon part) if not for the Warden.

...You know, for some reason I hadn't really looked at it from that point. Loghain really isn't that politically savvy, considering how he tried to make the Bannorn submit and his rants at the Landsmeet. As much as I thought Howe was a weasel, he did have some political savvy, but he either couldn't get through Loghain or couldn't be bothered since events were going his way.

I still think it's interesting how quickly people who were in Loghain's way to the through tended to die in the last few years in the game. Was that Loghain's doing, or was it Howe manipulating things? Because I could totally see Howe backstabbing Loghain to get the throne had he lived long enough.

[Obadiah]

Herr Uhl wrote...
...
Arl Eamon was in on the plot to divorce Anora
...

That's a valid assessment of the letters at Ostagar, but I agree with others that think Loghain was just being paranoid. The letters show nothing other than Cailin is friendly with Celene.

Modifié par Obadiah, 12 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Herr Uhl]

Obadiah wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
...
Arl Eamon was in on the plot to divorce Anora
...

That's a valid assessment of the letters at Ostagar, but I agree with others that think Loghain was just being paranoid. The letters show nothing other than Cailin is friendly with Celene.

I don't think that he knew about Celene, or that Eamon wanted that. But I think he might have known about Eamon proposing that he'd divorce his daughter, and that Eamon had swayed Cailan to his side. That is what I think the rows might have been about.

He is a father too, and perhaps not entirely rational in that situation.

Seems like the most plausible reason to incapacitate Eamon prior to losing the battle at Ostagar to me.

[PCousland]

Obadiah wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
...
Arl Eamon was in on the plot to divorce Anora
...

That's a valid assessment of the letters at Ostagar, but I agree with others that think Loghain was just being paranoid. The letters show nothing other than Cailin is friendly with Celene.

Or at the very least Celene may have had a 1 way infatuation with Calian.

[Wulfram]

Obadiah wrote...

Loghain as presented by Gaider does not seem polically competent, hence he tries to neutralize his opponents using means other than arguments. He doesn't seem "weak" to me since his plan would have probably worked (well except for killing the archdemon part) if not for the Warden.

Gaider's Loghain dithers at Ostagar, and seems to let Howe pretty much run the country.  Comes off as weak to me.