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[blothulfur]

Usually I do not post on these boards but this is a topic that really intrigues me, my own theory is that Cailan was swept away by events beyond his power and chose the only path he saw as honourable.

Firstly his land and bloodline are under threat because he has no heir so he decides to try and eliminate Fereldans greatest enemy through marriage and alliance (no doubt aided by a certain uncle who is married to an orlesian noblewoman and lives right on the border of Orlais), In doing so he betrays the woman he loves for duty to his throne.

Secondly no child comes of this union either maybe because there was nothing wrong with the fertility of the women he bedded and it was his problem all along (this seemed to be hinted at by mr Gaider at PAX but maybe thats just me reading between the lines), this leaves the young king sick with guilt over the betrayal of his wife and land, and has probably alienated his watchful and bitter war hero father in law.

Thirdly news comes of the blight and cailan sees a way out of his shame, stand with the grey wardens on the front lines, make sure an heir exists and is safe (alistair in the tower) with the support of a powerful noble who retains a full army (arl eamon) and then die for your sins.

This is my take on cailans folly and may very well be wrong, the scrunched up letter from the empress of orlais refusing fereldan aid in contrast to the warm tones of the previous two missives does seem to point to the fact that she is abandoning him however and what better reason for that than realising he cannot grant her an easy victory over a lost province (a very medieval mindset).

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I agree that Cailan is probably the "problem" when it comes to heir producing since he had his other women as Anora put it, and he produced no bastards that we know of.



I don't think Cailan knew of Alistair, and I don't think Cailan had suicide on his mind he wanted the glory of turning the tide against evil. I mean he had to live in his father's shadow his whole life. I think he was over eager to make his own legend, and foolishly died trying to equal his father's life accomplishments in one battle.



I think Cailan and Anora cared for each other I don't know if I would go as far to say the L word. At least after their marriage I wouldn't say the L word maybe before they were married they loved each other, but I think their marriage was political, and Cailan obviously grew tired of Anora, and Anora grew tired of his foolishness.



I just wish there was an option in game to show the letters to Anora. Would be interesting to see what she would have to say about Eamon, Celene and Cailan.

[blothulfur]

Fair point and certainly that is the way the game initially presents him and the plot, just seems that mr gaiders writing is usually more involved than that, still its more likely than my theory.

Agree on the letters thing would have liked to see a dlc that centred around the political machinations of the human nobility to make it more like the aeducan origin or added content for the landsmeet section (maybe play as loghain) but I suppose thats up the swanny.

[CalJones]

Oh I'd have loved to have presented the letters at Landsmeet. But, uh, there was no side with Loghain option so... *grin*



I read somewhere that Cailan did know about Alistair. I can't remember where but might have been a DG post. But yes, apparently he did know. If I'd meant for Alistair to be his heir, though, he would have declared him as such, formally.

[Monica21]

This is something that's been nagging at me for awhile, so I might as well ask it here. Isn't it traditional for a ruler to name someone who should rule in his absence if he has no heirs and especially is going off to war? I'm just wondering why Cailan didn't do something like that before leaving Denerim.

[Herr Uhl]

Monica21 wrote...

This is something that's been nagging at me for awhile, so I might as well ask it here. Isn't it traditional for a ruler to name someone who should rule in his absence if he has no heirs and especially is going off to war? I'm just wondering why Cailan didn't do something like that before leaving Denerim.

Young and arrogant.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

This is something that's been nagging at me for awhile, so I might as well ask it here. Isn't it traditional for a ruler to name someone who should rule in his absence if he has no heirs and especially is going off to war? I'm just wondering why Cailan didn't do something like that before leaving Denerim.

Invincible Grey Wardens.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Indeed I'm sure Cailan thought Duncan could shoot lightning out of his eyes and breathe fire.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

This is something that's been nagging at me for awhile, so I might as well ask it here. Isn't it traditional for a ruler to name someone who should rule in his absence if he has no heirs and especially is going off to war? I'm just wondering why Cailan didn't do something like that before leaving Denerim.

Why would it be necessary?  Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that.  It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

[Sarah1281]

Cailan is one of the more able leaders in the game, though that may reflect the generally poor quality of leadership of Ferelden at this time

Name one 'able' thing he did the whole game.

Loghain and his troops clearly think they would have lost due to Cailin's plan, but Alistair thinks they were winning until Loghain quit the field.

I don't think that Alistair, who couldn't see much of the battle and isn't really trained to judge these things, knows what he's talking about in this case.

I don't see why people are hating on Celene if I recall she had no problems with Ferelden and never had a hand in the crap that occured. Judging her by how one of her possible family members(or non-family members) acts makes no sense what so ever. Loghain was not justified in his paranoia best way to sum up how he was is a Conspiracist whack job from today who thinks everyone has a conspiracy going.

No one is 'hating on Celene.' People just kind of think that a king of a small nation that was only recently freed from a hostile occupation marrying the Empress of the land that enslalved them is a bad idea as they will lose their independence. Why does how nice or well-meaning Celene could possibly (though unlikely given how she rose to power) be have to do with the basic facts that it' s a small kingdom thinking it can merge on equal terms with an empire?

As for everyone looking down on Cailin I don't see the point in it. Maric was supposed to wed Rowan but cast her aside for an elf of all things (sure he did marry Rowan, but it wouldn't have happen if Loghain hadn't told her that she needed too.) Loghain had a thing for forsaking others for what he believed to be best for Ferelden which also kept him away from his wife and Anora. It also blinded him to the threat at Ostagar and to the fact that it was a real blight.

Um...okay? Maric never would have gotten away with marrying Katriel even if you overlook the bard thing and she and everyone else knew it. If he had tried, it would have been a stupid plan. Maybe not as stupid as marrying the freaking Empress as this could never have been approved but still very stupid. Maric's idiocy does not make Cailan's decision any brighter.

Also as for Eamon being a puppetmaster, I don't see it. The reason to put Alistair on the throne is a valid one even if he would have been weak. Ferelden highly revers the Calenhad bloodline and with Maric and Cailin dead the only one left of said bloodline is Alistair. Alistair had a stronger claim to the throne than Anora, Eamon, or even Teagan as all had claims by marriage, but Alistairs was by blood.

The Theirin bloodline doesn't appear to be nearly as important as all that. Have you not heard the nobles conversations in the tavern before Erlina shows up? They're all talking about not having time for politics during a Blight, how Anora is fully capable and Loghain handles the military thing, how maybe it's time for a new line of Mac Tir kings. If Alistiar had a claim to the throne and Anora didn't, you wouldn't be able to put her on the throne. An unrecognized bastard has no real claim and that's why it's a political decision.

Also the endings don't seem to portray Alistair as a weak or even as a pushover King as he becomes someone loved by all. As for Anora never re-marrying we don't know that for sure (we have no idea if Alistair being King alone or Alistair being King and married to Anora are the canonical choices, especially considering DA 2 is supposed to make use of the choices players made.) Though I always went with the Alistair and Anora marrying as it made the most sense to me. Of another note not just Eamon becomes an adviser to Alistair, Wynne does as well which I think would make it pretty hard for Eamon to be a puppeteer.

The Alistair that Eamon knows is unahrdened Alistair. By the time he realizes that Alistair has been hardened, it's a little late to change his plans. Unahrdened Alistair IS a weak leader as he's never in court and is always off meeting the people and leaving ruling to his chancellor. You know who his chancellor is? Eamon. The only way Eamon is not chancellor is if you yourself pick the position as your boon. Wynne's 'oh look! I'm an advisor now!' does not trump chancellor. The Alistair Eamon expects leaves all the power in Eamon's hands. Just because life might not follow Eamon's plans doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

[Sarah1281]

I read somewhere that Cailan did know about Alistair. I can't remember where but might have been a DG post. But yes, apparently he did know. If I'd meant for Alistair to be his heir, though, he would have declared him as such, formally.

Anora tells you that Cailan told her about Alistair so, yeah, he knew.

Why would it be necessary? Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that. It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

It's only practical to make it official. Maybe it would have been unnecessary to do so but it's just playing it safe.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Cailan is one of the more able leaders in the game, though that may reflect the generally poor quality of leadership of Ferelden at this time

Name one 'able' thing he did the whole game.

He comes up with a sensible, credible plan to fight the darkspawn - Duncan thought it would work.  It doesn't work, it might not have worked even if Loghain hadn't wussed out, but it's a lot more than anyone else does.

He also generally manages to be likable, which is probably the most important skill for royalty, and one which many of the rest of the leaders in the game fail at miserably.

[Sarah1281]

He comes up with a sensible, credible plan to fight the darkspawn - Duncan thought it would work. It doesn't work, it might not have worked even if Loghain hadn't wussed out, but it's a lot more than anyone else does.

That was Loghain's plan.

He also generally manages to be likable, which is probably the most important skill for royalty, and one which many of the rest of the leaders in the game fail at miserably.

Being likeable does not make you an able leader.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He comes up with a sensible, credible plan to fight the darkspawn - Duncan thought it would work. It doesn't work, it might not have worked even if Loghain hadn't wussed out, but it's a lot more than anyone else does.

That was Loghain's plan.

Perhaps he should have stuck to it then?  But he was acting under Cailan's orders and according to his wishes.  One other good thing about Cailan is a willingness to utilise the talents of his subordinates

He also generally manages to be likable, which is probably the most important skill for royalty, and one which many of the rest of the leaders in the game fail at miserably.

Being likeable does not make you an able leader.

It's pretty valuable.  If people don't like you, then they won't support you when you're weak - and that's when you need them.

[Bruddajakka]

Actually most people think he was a fool because of it. Hell most of my characters end up thinking he was. Though if you talk to Wynne she mentions he was putting up a front, and it could be one of the reasons he didn't want Eamon's army at Ostagar in case he did fall.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why would it be necessary? Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that. It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

Anora had no claim to the throne by just being Queen Consort to Cailan, all she had was popular support which frankly would not have been enough to secure her throne, not easily anyway.

[Wulfram]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Why would it be necessary? Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that. It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

Anora had no claim to the throne by just being Queen Consort to Cailan, all she had was popular support which frankly would not have been enough to secure her throne, not easily anyway.

Marriage does seem to give you a claim in Ferelden - Eamon is suggested to have a potential claim through Maric's wife.

[Sarah1281]

Marriage does seem to give you a claim in Ferelden - Eamon is suggested to have a potential claim through Maric's wife.

By Alistair who wanted to get out of the job himself. And it's only a political claim since no one had a legitimate one.

[Bruddajakka]

Yeah but a Cousland Warden would have as much claim as Eamon did. Hell after Alistair a Cousland Warden would probably have the biggest claim due to being a Cousland, Howe having control of the the Teyrnir or not.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He comes up with a sensible, credible plan to fight the darkspawn - Duncan thought it would work. It doesn't work, it might not have worked even if Loghain hadn't wussed out, but it's a lot more than anyone else does.

That was Loghain's plan.

Perhaps he should have stuck to it then?  But he was acting under Cailan's orders and according to his wishes.  One other good thing about Cailan is a willingness to utilise the talents of his subordinates

He also generally manages to be likable, which is probably the most important skill for royalty, and one which many of the rest of the leaders in the game fail at miserably.

Being likeable does not make you an able leader.

It's pretty valuable.  If people don't like you, then they won't support you when you're weak - and that's when you need them.

Well Loghain had planned for Cailan not to be in the front lines because well just as Loghain thought it was going to be a failure. Cailan was trying to defeat a Blight in a single battle. If that isn't ignorance I don't know what is. Loghain was aware it wouldn't happen, so he tried to get the King off of the frontlines. Cailan refused and led himself the Grey Wardens and a lot of others to their grave. Hardly qualities I would look for in a leader.

Likeable? Cailan may have been a good man, but people hardly adored him for it. Most of his subjects like Anora more than him, and understand she was the brains getting things done. Then at Ostagar most comment on how "meh" Cailan is and how Loghain is going to carry them to victory. 

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Wulfram wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Why would it be necessary? Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that. It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

Anora had no claim to the throne by just being Queen Consort to Cailan, all she had was popular support which frankly would not have been enough to secure her throne, not easily anyway.

Marriage does seem to give you a claim in Ferelden - Eamon is suggested to have a potential claim through Maric's wife.

Eamon states it is a political or opportunist claim, and that he would be seen no different than Loghain or Anora.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

This is something that's been nagging at me for awhile, so I might as well ask it here. Isn't it traditional for a ruler to name someone who should rule in his absence if he has no heirs and especially is going off to war? I'm just wondering why Cailan didn't do something like that before leaving Denerim.

Why would it be necessary?  Anora was the obvious candidate with Loghain to back her up, and Cailan would have been happy with that.  It's only the suspicious circumstances of his death which cause problems.

Because that didn't actually work out very well when he did die. A king needs to do more than just make assumptions about what will happen after he's dead.

[Monica21]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
Likeable? Cailan may have been a good man, but people hardly adored him for it. Most of his subjects like Anora more than him, and understand she was the brains getting things done. Then at Ostagar most comment on how "meh" Cailan is and how Loghain is going to carry them to victory. 

Is he even a good man? He cheated on Anora multiple times and that means something, no matter what Wynne says about him loving her.

But that's part of the problem. You don't need to be a good man to be good leader, in fact many good leaders have done things that the average person can't justify morally. Good men can often make poor leaders, because their world view is too black and white. Cailan seems to be neither a good man nor a good leader. He's trying to escape his father's shadow, and in many ways that makes him a pitiable creature.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

Because that didn't actually work out very well when he did die. A king needs to do more than just make assumptions about what will happen after he's dead.

It wouldn't have changed anything if there was a piece of paper naming Anora as heir. 

What clouded the succession was Loghains actions, not any doubt as to who was the proper heir.  Even if someone did come forward to dispute the succession, that's what the landmeet is there for.

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well Loghain had planned for Cailan not to be in the front lines because
well just as Loghain thought it was going to be a failure. Cailan was
trying to defeat a Blight in a single battle. If that isn't ignorance I
don't know what is. Loghain was aware it wouldn't happen, so he tried to
get the King off of the frontlines. Cailan refused and led himself the
Grey Wardens and a lot of others to their grave. Hardly qualities
I would look for in a leader.

Leading from the front is entirely appropriate for a medieval army .  The only other place for him to be would be leading the flanking force, but it made more sense to put his best commander there.

[Bruddajakka]

If any thing he should have had Loghain with the Wardens, with himself leading the other force.