501 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Because that didn't actually work out very well when he did die. A king needs to do more than just make assumptions about what will happen after he's dead.

It wouldn't have changed anything if there was a piece of paper naming Anora as heir. 

What clouded the succession was Loghains actions, not any doubt as to who was the proper heir.  Even if someone did come forward to dispute the succession, that's what the landmeet is there for.

What clouded the succession is that there was no succession. If Cailan had a piece of paper that name Anora his heir at his death until a Landsmeet can be called, then she is the heir.

[Monica21]

Bruddajakka wrote...

If any thing he should have had Loghain with the Wardens, with himself leading the other force.

If I were Loghain, I wouldn't trust Cailan to know when to lead the flanking charge. I would have kept Cailan with me, or out of the battle altogether.

[Bruddajakka]

He wouldn't have had a choice in the matter, but then again Cailen = Coddled Idiot.

[Chuvvy]

Probably had something to do with glory.

[Wulfram]

Monica21 wrote...

What clouded the succession is that there was no succession. If Cailan had a piece of paper that name Anora his heir at his death until a Landsmeet can be called, then she is the heir.

It's not like people were proposing any alternative candidates until Eamon and the Warden pull Alistair out of their hats.  The issue was not doubt over Anora's claim to the throne.

[Sarah1281]

Yeah but a Cousland Warden would have as much claim as Eamon did. Hell after Alistair a Cousland Warden would probably have the biggest claim due to being a Cousland, Howe having control of the the Teyrnir or not.

Yeah, I suppose the Cousland also has no claim to the throne just like everyone else does. He has no political backing, though, which is why it's not an option in-game.

It wouldn't have changed anything if there was a piece of paper naming Anora as heir.



What clouded the succession was Loghains actions, not any doubt as to who was the proper heir. Even if someone did come forward to dispute the succession, that's what the landmeet is there for.

Really? If there was a piece of paper naming Anora heir, Loghain wouldn't have officially declared himself regent and thus no civil war. He might have still been making the decisions and kept Anora off to the side but officially she would have had the power and it would have made things simpler. Plus, metagaming about how things would or would not have changed doesn't mean it wasn't still a stupid idea for Cailan not to have a designated successor.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Wulfram wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Because that didn't actually work out very well when he did die. A king needs to do more than just make assumptions about what will happen after he's dead.

It wouldn't have changed anything if there was a piece of paper naming Anora as heir. 

What clouded the succession was Loghains actions, not any doubt as to who was the proper heir.  Even if someone did come forward to dispute the succession, that's what the landmeet is there for.

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well Loghain had planned for Cailan not to be in the front lines because
well just as Loghain thought it was going to be a failure. Cailan was
trying to defeat a Blight in a single battle. If that isn't ignorance I
don't know what is. Loghain was aware it wouldn't happen, so he tried to
get the King off of the frontlines. Cailan refused and led himself the
Grey Wardens and a lot of others to their grave. Hardly qualities
I would look for in a leader.

Leading from the front is entirely appropriate for a medieval army .  The only other place for him to be would be leading the flanking force, but it made more sense to put his best commander there.

Well when your best commander suggest it isn't wise because the battle is a toss up at best. I think wisdom would have you defer to the man who has lead armies and fought in wars.

Also it wasn't a question of leadership. Duncan seemed more than capable of leading men. Cailan wanted the glory of fighting along side the fabled Grey Wardens to turn the tide against evil. Cailan was after glory not the well being of his army and country which is very poor leadership imo.

[Bruddajakka]

I feel kind of bad for Maric now. Both of his sons are/were bloody idiots though he wasn't much better for a long time. Hell here's hoping Alistair wasn't his, and Fiona's son so we can end up with a Theirin who isn't a complete turd.

[Monica21]

Bruddajakka wrote...

I feel kind of bad for Maric now. Both of his sons are/were bloody idiots though he wasn't much better for a long time. Hell here's hoping Alistair wasn't his, and Fiona's son so we can end up with a Theirin who isn't a complete turd.

Well, to Alistair's credit, I do think he turns out better than Cailan (especially considering that he was never raised to rule), but only if he rules with Anora. He seems a much weaker king when he rules with the PC, even as his Chancellor and/or wife.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:48 .

[Wulfram]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well when your best commander suggest it isn't wise because the battle is a toss up at best. I think wisdom would have you defer to the man who has lead armies and fought in wars.

Kings need to be able to make their own decisions some times

Also it wasn't a question of leadership. Duncan seemed more than capable of leading men. Cailan wanted the glory of fighting along side the fabled Grey Wardens to turn the tide against evil. Cailan was after glory not the well being of his army and country which is very poor leadership imo.

Men fight better when they're fighting beside their King.  Kings rule better when they've proven themselves in battle.

I cannot comment with accuracy as to his motives, but his actions are sensible enough.

[Bruddajakka]

Well, to Alistair's credit, I do think he turns out better than Cailan (especially considering that he was never raised to rule), but only if he rules with Anora. He seems a much weaker king when he rules with the PC, even as his Chancellor and/or wife.

I can't ever shake the feeling of needing to hold Alistairs hand in some way though. Even when he's hardened it feels like it's up to me, or somebody else to babysit him. Especially since I don't trust Eamon as far as I can throw him, and if given the chance I wouldn't have cured him but had Teagan installed in his place.

[Monica21]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Well, to Alistair's credit, I do think he turns out better than Cailan (especially considering that he was never raised to rule), but only if he rules with Anora. He seems a much weaker king when he rules with the PC, even as his Chancellor and/or wife.

I can't ever shake the feeling of needing to hold Alistairs hand in some way though. Even when he's hardened it feels like it's up to me, or somebody else to babysit him. Especially since I don't trust Eamon as far as I can throw him, and if given the chance I wouldn't have cured him but had Teagan installed in his place.

Completely agree, which is why I think marrying him to Anora is best. Let someone else hold his hand for a change. I haven't married him as not in love PC and named myself Chancellor, but I'd be interested to see the difference in epilogues for the "happy" couple.

Modifié par Monica21, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Wulfram wrote...

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Well
when your best commander suggest it isn't wise because the battle is a
toss up at best. I think wisdom would have you defer to the man who has
lead armies and fought in wars.

Kings need to be able to make their own decisions some times

Also
it wasn't a question of leadership. Duncan seemed more than capable of
leading men. Cailan wanted the glory of fighting along side the fabled
Grey Wardens to turn the tide against evil. Cailan was after glory not
the well being of his army and country which is very poor leadership
imo.

Men fight better when they're fighting beside their King.  Kings rule better when they've proven themselves in battle.

I cannot comment with accuracy as to his motives, but his actions are sensible enough.

Yeah and Cailan made his choice which left the kingdom in worse shape than before the battle.

Your second point is debatable and it depends on the ruler imo.

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 12 septembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[Bruddajakka]

Cailen apparently hadn't been in a real fight before in his life before Ostagar don't remember who mentions it but apparently the only combat experience he had was sparring with his tutors. Admittedly he makes a pretty good showing for himself but he shouldn't have been down there with the Grey Warden's.

[CalJones]

Heh, this game needs a mod where you can put a pillow over Eamon's face and install Teagan in his place.



Cailan seems to fight quite well up until the moment when (as someone so gleefully put it) the ogre comes up and crushes him like an angry fat man with a sachet of ketchup. His folly wasn't that he fought but that he fought on the front lines, against the advice of more experienced people like Loghain and Eamon. Call it vanity, bravado, or a lack of comprehension of his mortality, but doing so without naming an heir and withough making any contingency plans was sheer and utter stupidity.

[Wulfram]

If he dies, then Loghain takes over.  If they both die, Anora takes over.  It's really all the contingency plan he needs.

It's just Loghain screwed it up through treachery and poor judgement.

[CalJones]

If that's what he intended, it didn't work out too well. Anora and Loghain are not named as heirs or successors; thus the result is civil war.

As for treachery, I don't believe he is guilty of that. Poor judgement, possibly. Blinkered outlook, certainly. But this is an old, well-worn argument and it's late, I have an exam tomorrow and I'll let someone else argue it if they feel they must.

[Sarah1281]

Kings need to be able to make their own decisions some times

And Cailan made a really stupid one.

Men fight better when they're fighting beside their King. Kings rule better when they've proven themselves in battle.



I cannot comment with accuracy as to his motives, but his actions are sensible enough.

You know the best way Kings rule? When they don't get themselves killed on a glory hunt.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah is correct, a King's job was not to be a glorious figure of legend to inspire people.



His job is to rule as the highest noble over a bunch of other lower nobles, gather armies and represent that nation. Also to continue the royal line.



Calian kinda missed out on the heir issue as well. So no Calian is not the very model of what a King should be.

[Bruddajakka]

Or die of grief because their too stubborn to believe their child is innocent because it'll cause a scandal. Sorry tangent.

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...

If he dies, then Loghain takes over.  If they both die, Anora takes over.  It's really all the contingency plan he needs.

It's just Loghain screwed it up through treachery and poor judgement.

Unless that's stated and sealed somehow (presumably approved by the Landsmeet), Cailan's assumption about what would happen doesn't mean anything. It needs to be formal.

[Wulfram]

Did he also need to specify that Loghain should not ride naked through the streets of Denerim on the back of a Mabari singing the Orlesian national anthem?

[Sarah1281]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Or die of grief because their too stubborn to believe their child is innocent because it'll cause a scandal. Sorry tangent.

Oh, I know! Worse, he DID believe you were innocent and sacrificed you anyway. And then changed his mind at the last second.  

On the plus side, he already had an heir. On the other hand, he also probably incited Harrowmont to start a succession crisis that very well could have led to civil war.

[Sarah1281]

Did he also need to specify that Loghain should not ride naked through the streets of Denerim on the back of a Mabari singing the Orlesian national anthem?

...What does this have to do with anything? Cailan wasn't called upon to tell the bannorn how to put their pants on. He was called upon to leave a clear heir. Until he had a child of his own, he had a responsibility to leave his wife, his father-in-law, his uncle, whoever as the next-in-line.

[Bruddajakka]

Led to a civil war? People killing each other in the streets, and roving death bands aren't exactly what one could considered civil...well maybe for the dwarves...and it still leads to one in the case of Harrowmont taking the crown.