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[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Did he also need to specify that Loghain should not ride naked through the streets of Denerim on the back of a Mabari singing the Orlesian national anthem?

...What does this have to do with anything? Cailan wasn't called upon to tell the bannorn how to put their pants on. He was called upon to leave a clear heir. Until he had a child of his own, he had a responsibility to leave his wife, his father-in-law, his uncle, whoever as the next-in-line.

He did have a clear heir.  Anora.  If he wanted someone else, he'd have to specify - though I don't know if the King is actually empowered to dispose of the Kingdom like it's his personal property.

[TJPags]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Did he also need to specify that Loghain should not ride naked through the streets of Denerim on the back of a Mabari singing the Orlesian national anthem?

...What does this have to do with anything? Cailan wasn't called upon to tell the bannorn how to put their pants on. He was called upon to leave a clear heir. Until he had a child of his own, he had a responsibility to leave his wife, his father-in-law, his uncle, whoever as the next-in-line.

He did have a clear heir.  Anora.  If he wanted someone else, he'd have to specify - though I don't know if the King is actually empowered to dispose of the Kingdom like it's his personal property.

Why is the King's wife (or Queen's husband) necessarily the heir to the throne in the event they have no kids?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
 Oh, I know! Worse, he DID believe you were innocent and sacrificed you anyway. And then changed his mind at the last second.  

On the plus side, he already had an heir. On the other hand, he also probably incited Harrowmont to start a succession crisis that very well could have led to civil war.

9:30 Dragon Age should be recognised as the year of idiot kings.

[Bruddajakka]

Actually her being Queen-Consort isn't the same thing as her being his heir. She's just his Widow in that case. Doesn't matter if she's ruling the country in his stand. It's not a clear line of succession.

So if for instance Anora died, and she was married to a Cousland he wouldn't automatically be crowned King unless she'd clearly named him her heir. Now considering his Pedigree, his achievements, and his rank he'd be the most likely choice it wouldn't be enough to stop say Fergus from putting his hat into the ring. Though he probably wouldn't.

Modifié par Bruddajakka, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[Monica21]

Wulfram wrote...
He did have a clear heir.  Anora.  If he wanted someone else, he'd have to specify - though I don't know if the King is actually empowered to dispose of the Kingdom like it's his personal property.

That's a nice thought, but having a wife doesn't make her an heir, nor is that how succession works in Ferelden. Rulers have to be approved by the Landsmeet.

[Bruddajakka]

That's a nice thought, but having a wife doesn't make her an heir, nor is that how succession works in Ferelden. Rulers have to be approved by the Landsmeet.

Though just like in the case of an Assembly a clear heir tends to make things a whole lot smoother. Doesn't change the fact that Ferelden's will find an excuse to fight with each other at the drop of a hat...also a lot like the Assembly.

[Obadiah]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Cailen apparently hadn't been in a real fight before in his life before Ostagar don't remember who mentions it but apparently the only combat experience he had was sparring with his tutors. Admittedly he makes a pretty good showing for himself but he shouldn't have been down there with the Grey Warden's.

Well, to be fair, Cailin had been in a few fights with the darkspawn at Ostagar before the Warden shows up with Duncan.

[Bruddajakka]

Well, to be fair, Cailin had been in a few fights with the darkspawn at Ostagar before the Warden shows up with Duncan.

Actually from what we hear there's been clashes. Nothing to indicate that Cailen has actually been doing any fighting himself.

[Sarah1281]

Led to a civil war? People killing each other in the streets, and roving death bands aren't exactly what one could considered civil...well maybe for the dwarves...and it still leads to one in the case of Harrowmont taking the crown.

I guess if you're going to use 'civil' to mean 'polite' instead of to mean 'fighting amongst themselves.' People in-game say that the city is on the brink of civil war when you show up. Bhelen's rebellion MAY count as a civil war but that was Bhelen's choice to do after the throne was denied him and I think Endrin's less responsible for that than he was for the near-civil war that happened before you showed up and solved all of their problems.

[Bruddajakka]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I guess if you're going to use 'civil' to mean 'polite' instead of to mean 'fighting amongst themselves.' People in-game say that the city is on the brink of civil war when you show up. Bhelen's rebellion MAY count as a civil war but that was Bhelen's choice to do after the throne was denied him and I think Endrin's less responsible for that than he was for the near-civil war that happened before you showed up and solved all of their problems.

Either way he more or less undoes quite spectulary any real good he may have done as King by the way he treats the whole fiasco. Hell Orzammar was in bad enough shape before he died. It couldn't really afford a war for succession, and his actions pretty much bring that about. I mean it isn't hard to see how much support Bhelen had in the assembly due to how fast the second child was exiled in defience of the Tradition he, and Pyral had stuck so far up their arses it must have been pretty darn uncomfortable to eat let alone breathe. Hell if the Warden hadn't come along when he did the entire city would have descended into civil war, and then probably have gotten consumed by the Blight.

[Morroian]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
Well when your best commander suggest it isn't wise because the battle is a toss up at best. I think wisdom would have you defer to the man who has lead armies and fought in wars.

Yeah but the battle didn't go as planned with Loghain deserting, and the plan was Loghain's. Gaider pretty much says that although Loghain didn't outright plan to desert that he certainly had it in mind as an option.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Did he also need to specify that Loghain should not ride naked through the streets of Denerim on the back of a Mabari singing the Orlesian national anthem?

...What does this have to do with anything? Cailan wasn't called upon to tell the bannorn how to put their pants on. He was called upon to leave a clear heir. Until he had a child of his own, he had a responsibility to leave his wife, his father-in-law, his uncle, whoever as the next-in-line.

To be fair, the idea of a fully pre-arranged succession line in case of death is more of a modern thing, given the nature of the incentives implied when people know exactly who they need to kill to gain power. In the context of Dragon Age, Orzammar, Orlais, and Antiva had had recent history of nobles just killing through the next in lines in order to get on the throne. Ambiguity in that respect can create a dis-encentive of sorts.

Even the modern US only really set out it's chain of succession during the Cold War, in part due to the threat of nukes. Back when the first president died, it wasn't even clear if the Vice-President would become president, or if another election would be called right away. Some modern countries of the time still don't: the old USSR kept it's actual (untested) chain of succession rather murky. And we consider the Cold War 'modern'.

[TJPags]

Most medieval countries dealt with succession by blood relation - oldest son (sometimes daughter) down to youngest child, if no kids younger brother (or I guess sister) of monarch, then uncles/aunts, then cousins, etc.

Most wars of succession in medieval times were caused by one of 2 things - no clear line of succession (no kids, no siblings, etc) or remote relatives (sometimes close relatives) of the deceased monarch who feel they have a better claim (which may be the same as no clear line) or may be a better choice for whatever reason (clear choice is barren/sterile, or simpleminded, etc).

Problem here is twofold - first, Ferelden has introduced a "Landsmeet must approve king" aspect.
Second, as I understand it, there IS no other decendant of Maric floating around - no paternal uncle, cousins, etc (except Alistair, of course).

So there's no clear successor once Caillan dies, and it's only speculation as to what the Landsmeet would do had he actually named someone random his heir.  It's kind of a free-for-all either way.

[Bruddajakka]

Basically without Alistair, and barring Howe it would have ended up being between Anora, and Bryce. Which is probably one of the reasons Loghain had Howe kill him if he was involved with it.

[Monica21]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Basically without Alistair, and barring Howe it would have ended up being between Anora, and Bryce. Which is probably one of the reasons Loghain had Howe kill him if he was involved with it.

Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's actions at Highever. That's been stated by Gaider and repeated on these forums several times.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

Basically without Alistair, and barring Howe it would have ended up being between Anora, and Bryce. Which is probably one of the reasons Loghain had Howe kill him if he was involved with it.

Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's actions at Highever. That's been stated by Gaider and repeated on these forums several times.

Howe still killed Bryce (or his men did, same thing) which eliminated that apparent easy choice for next king.

[Monica21]

Which still has nothing to do with Loghain. It may have bearing on Howe's aspirations to the throne, but nothing to do with Loghain.

[Bruddajakka]

Monica21 wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

Basically without Alistair, and barring Howe it would have ended up being between Anora, and Bryce. Which is probably one of the reasons Loghain had Howe kill him if he was involved with it.

Loghain had nothing to do with Howe's actions at Highever. That's been stated by Gaider and repeated on these forums several times.

Oh that was actually confirmed. Thanks. I kept hearing it either had something to do with Bryce acting as courier for Cailen to Celene, or to eliminate him from replacing Anora.

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

Which still has nothing to do with Loghain. It may have bearing on Howe's aspirations to the throne, but nothing to do with Loghain.

That's true.

[Morroian]

Monica21 wrote...

Which still has nothing to do with Loghain. It may have bearing on Howe's aspirations to the throne, but nothing to do with Loghain.

Loghain supported him and even promoted him after the fact knowing what he did, so he's an accessory after the fact.

[Sarah1281]

9:30 Dragon Age should be recognised as the year of idiot kings.

Too true...

[Bruddajakka]

I like to think of it as the year one dude was bad enough to end a blight. But I'm still not sure of the exact time line ><

[Monica21]

Morroian wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Which still has nothing to do with Loghain. It may have bearing on Howe's aspirations to the throne, but nothing to do with Loghain.

Loghain supported him and even promoted him after the fact knowing what he did, so he's an accessory after the fact.

No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.

[Bruddajakka]

Did they ever explain why Cailen wanted the newly joined Warden at the War Council? If your a Cousland it kinda makes sense since technically your of the same rank as Loghain until Fergus comes back but for all the other origins it makes no real sense. Unless he wants to official make you Alistairs babysitter. And I know PC but still.

[Addai]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Did they ever explain why Cailen wanted the newly joined Warden at the War Council? If your a Cousland it kinda makes sense since technically your of the same rank as Loghain until Fergus comes back but for all the other origins it makes no real sense. Unless he wants to official make you Alistairs babysitter. And I know PC but still.

(Husband)

I think in game the reasons are purely because your a grey warden, super elite commando type.   He defers to the GWs even if you tell him "I am just a new recruit", saying "Even still you have abilities far above normal men".   So maybe hero worship.