501 réponses à ce sujet

[Reika]

Addai67 wrote...

Bruddajakka wrote...

Did they ever explain why Cailen wanted the newly joined Warden at the War Council? If your a Cousland it kinda makes sense since technically your of the same rank as Loghain until Fergus comes back but for all the other origins it makes no real sense. Unless he wants to official make you Alistairs babysitter. And I know PC but still.

(Husband)

I think in game the reasons are purely because your a grey warden, super elite commando type.   He defers to the GWs even if you tell him "I am just a new recruit", saying "Even still you have abilities far above normal men".   So maybe hero worship.

I think it's part hero worship and part babysitting. My very first playthrough I met up with Alistair after the initial visit with Cailan and thought I'd gotten confused with who I was talking with because it was clear there was some sort of blood relation. So I wasn't surprised when Alistair revealed his heritage. Then as the game went on, especially when I got Return to Ostagar and the papers about lack of an heir, that pretty much confirmed my suspicions.

[Morroian]

Monica21 wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Loghain supported him and even promoted him after the fact knowing what he did, so he's an accessory after the fact.

No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.

Well from what is written on wikipedia it could quite easily fit into the definition. Be that as it may, supporting Howe after the fact in the killing of innocents is still morally wrong and if you listen to the rumours it wasn't just the Couslands either. Even in the feudal society of Ferelden those who know about it recoil from it, Cailan promised to prosecute Howe just for example.

[Monica21]

Morroian wrote...
Well from what is written on wikipedia it could quite easily fit into the definition. Be that as it may, supporting Howe after the fact in the killing of innocents is still morally wrong and if you listen to the rumours it wasn't just the Couslands either. Even in the feudal society of Ferelden those who know about it recoil from it, Cailan promised to prosecute Howe just for example.

And we're still talking about a feudal system. If you fail to kill Howe and retake Highever then you've lost your ternyr. Cailan doesn't promise to prosecute Howe. He says he's going to turn his armies north after Ostagar and help you retake it. The implication being that the only way to get back at Howe is by force.

Modifié par Monica21, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:01 .

[Khazar-Khum]

Of the three letters at Ostagar, 2 are from Celene: the formal offer of aid, and the one saying she personally won't be coming until the Blight is defeated. She isn't withdrawing aid; she's not coming herself  until it's safe to do so. Loghain is the one who turns the Orlesian aid aside at the border.

The plan at Ostagar was Loghain's. Cailan, recall, is all for waiting for the Orlesians; it's Loghain who insists they don't need them, and Cailan who says that his men had better suffice then. He's throwing down the gauntlet in the only way he can. At that point Loghain and Duncan both fail in their duty as advisors--had either one said they were in no position to handle the horde it would have given Cailan the excuse he needed to stage a strategic retreat until the arrival of the Orlesians.  But both Duncan and Loghain insist this can be won, even after Cailan asks.

One of the big slams on Cailan is that he doesn't listen to advice. Yet he clearly does, and he takes that advice as well. He takes Eamon's advice on securing the succession by negotiating with Celene and bringing Alistair from the Chantry. That it doesn't turn out well at Ostagar is entirely Loghain's doing: it's his plan and it's his choice to quit the field, leaving the people who trusted him to die. 

DG has said that the original plot was to have Celene in Denerim for the marriage to Cailan; when this was dropped the Ostagar letters were used to indicate its existence. That she was to be in Denerim rather than Cailan in Val Royeaux speaks volumes of their relative strength: Orlais had to go to Ferelden, not the other way around.







 

Modifié par Khazar-Khum, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:51 .

[Sarah1281]

DG has said that the original plot was to have Celene in Denerim for the marriage to Cailan; when this was dropped the Ostagar letters were used to indicate its existence. That she was to be in Denerim rather than Cailan in Val Royeaux speaks volumes of their relative strength: Orlais had to go to Ferelden, not the other way around.

...Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Ferelden is stronger than Orlais?

[Khazar-Khum]

Sarah1281 wrote...

DG has said that the original plot was to have Celene in Denerim for the marriage to Cailan; when this was dropped the Ostagar letters were used to indicate its existence. That she was to be in Denerim rather than Cailan in Val Royeaux speaks volumes of their relative strength: Orlais had to go to Ferelden, not the other way around.

...Are you SERIOUSLY suggesting that Ferelden is stronger than Orlais?

They won the last war. That's all that counts in that kind of negotiation.

Again recall the 30 Years' War. Spain was by far the wealthier & more powerful realm, yet France controlled the negotiations by viture of winning. It's the same kind of situation: the smaller kingdom won.

[Sarah1281]

It wasn't so much that Orlais lost a war as it was that the occupying force left. No one AT ALL in the entire game ever suggests or even hints at thinking that Ferelden is stronger than Orlais, they just don't think that Celene is interested in retaking Ferelden. The reason why Celene was supposed to have been in Ferelden instead of Cailan in Orlais? The game takes place in Ferelden and if we were going to meet Celene, she'd need to be there.

[Bruddajakka]

Didn't Orlais lose a couple of Legions of Knights at Riverdane? That's a pretty heavy loss of forces, and it would take a long period of time to recover from. Ferelden may very well have had a stronger military at the time of Ostagar.

[Sarah1281]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Didn't Orlais lose a couple of Legions of Knights at Riverdane? That's a pretty heavy loss of forces, and it would take a long period of time to recover from. Ferelden may very well have had a stronger military at the time of Ostagar.

Orlais had two legions of chevaliers at River Dane. Orlais had four at the border of Ferelden during the Blight. There is no way in hell the tiny country of Ferelden has a stronger military than the Orlesian Empire.

[Bruddajakka]

Ahhh I never bothered to read Stolen Throne or the Calling so I wasn't sure of the exact number off the top of my head. Yeah doesn't seem very likely then.

[Khazar-Khum]

Sarah1281 wrote...
Orlais had two legions of chevaliers at River Dane. Orlais had four at the border of Ferelden during the Blight. There is no way in hell the tiny country of Ferelden has a stronger military than the Orlesian Empire.

They don't have to have the bigger army. The bigger, stronger country can lose. Remember Vietnam?

Modifié par Khazar-Khum, 13 septembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[Sarah1281]

Khazar-Khum wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Orlais had two legions of chevaliers at River Dane. Orlais had four at the border of Ferelden during the Blight. There is no way in hell the tiny country of Ferelden has a stronger military than the Orlesian Empire.

They don't have to have the bigger army. The bigger, stronger country can lose. Remember Vietnam?

And now Vietnam is supposed to be a stronger country? Just because you can't or won't conquer/keep a country does not mean that said country is stronger than your or anybody will act like said country is superior. Ferelden simply would not be bargaining from a position of strength in these alliances.

[Addai]

Khazar-Khum wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
Orlais had two legions of chevaliers at River Dane. Orlais had four at the border of Ferelden during the Blight. There is no way in hell the tiny country of Ferelden has a stronger military than the Orlesian Empire.

They don't have to have the bigger army. The bigger, stronger country can lose. Remember Vietnam?

(husband)

Bad bad analogy.   Vietnam was lost because of the affects of a free press and TV News in particular on a restless democracy.   People were not use to eating dinner and seeing carnage brought into their living rooms via the TV news.


Read any military historians the US won all the major battles.   Even the ones that didn't start out so well like the Tet offensive.


The American Revolution is a much better parallel.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Khazar-Khum wrote...

Of the three letters at Ostagar, 2 are from Celene: the formal offer of aid, and the one saying she personally won't be coming until the Blight is defeated. She isn't withdrawing aid; she's not coming herself  until it's safe to do so. Loghain is the one who turns the Orlesian aid aside at the border.

The plan at Ostagar was Loghain's. Cailan, recall, is all for waiting for the Orlesians; it's Loghain who insists they don't need them, and Cailan who says that his men had better suffice then. He's throwing down the gauntlet in the only way he can. At that point Loghain and Duncan both fail in their duty as advisors--had either one said they were in no position to handle the horde it would have given Cailan the excuse he needed to stage a strategic retreat until the arrival of the Orlesians.  But both Duncan and Loghain insist this can be won, even after Cailan asks.

One of the big slams on Cailan is that he doesn't listen to advice. Yet he clearly does, and he takes that advice as well. He takes Eamon's advice on securing the succession by negotiating with Celene and bringing Alistair from the Chantry. That it doesn't turn out well at Ostagar is entirely Loghain's doing: it's his plan and it's his choice to quit the field, leaving the people who trusted him to die. 

DG has said that the original plot was to have Celene in Denerim for the marriage to Cailan; when this was dropped the Ostagar letters were used to indicate its existence. That she was to be in Denerim rather than Cailan in Val Royeaux speaks volumes of their relative strength: Orlais had to go to Ferelden, not the other way around.

It does seem that, regardless of the political or economic strength of either country, that Celene may indeed have wanted to reconcile the differences between the two nations. It's difficult to say, given how little we know about her, and whether TPTB will go in a different direction. Given Wynne's inclination toward thinking this would bring peace between Ferelden and Orlais (and her potential to become an advisor to the court), and the possibility of Eamon becoming Chancellor, I wonder if the possibility of marrying Celene would be brought up to a newly crowned Alistair?

[Sarah1281]

and the possibility of Eamon becoming Chancellor

Would Eamon have been in favor of this? We know that he wanted Cailan to leave Anora but his letter makes it clear that he's hesitant to bring it up again as Cailan reacted so badly last time so I think it's safe to assume he had no idea that Cailan was planning the wedding. I know he married an Orlesian himself but she gave up her land and family to become an Arlessa of his lands and that's a far cry from being willing to risk a merge. Besides, Isolde was for love and not any political considerations so that could just be him overlooking her nationality because he loves her rather than having any great fondness for Orlais.

[jpdipity]

Sorry if I missed this, but I think I've managed to read through this thread...



Has it been mentioned or implied anywhere that Bryce Cousland may have been involved in the Cailan/Celene union?



I just thought that it would add a lot of depth to both Howe and Cousland's characters if Howe had an actual reason to turn on his seemingly good friend other than greed or paranoia. There are very few true innocents in this game and Bryce seems to be one on the surface; so, I wonder if he wasn't truly intended as such initially.

[Herr Uhl]

jpdipity wrote...

Sorry if I missed this, but I think I've managed to read through this thread...

Has it been mentioned or implied anywhere that Bryce Cousland may have been involved in the Cailan/Celene union?

I just thought that it would add a lot of depth to both Howe and Cousland's characters if Howe had an actual reason to turn on his seemingly good friend other than greed or paranoia. There are very few true innocents in this game and Bryce seems to be one on the surface; so, I wonder if he wasn't truly intended as such initially.

He might have, IIRC Bryce had just been on a trip to Orlais.

[Sarah1281]

We know that Bryce thought it was amusing that some of the Orlesians he met were under the impression that he was King.

[Bahlgan]

Monica21 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Which still has nothing to do with Loghain. It may have bearing on Howe's aspirations to the throne, but nothing to do with Loghain.

Loghain supported him and even promoted him after the fact knowing what he did, so he's an accessory after the fact.

No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.

Yea just like murder in general isn't a crime (sarcasm)

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

and the possibility of Eamon becoming Chancellor

Would Eamon have been in favor of this? We know that he wanted Cailan to leave Anora but his letter makes it clear that he's hesitant to bring it up again as Cailan reacted so badly last time so I think it's safe to assume he had no idea that Cailan was planning the wedding. I know he married an Orlesian himself but she gave up her land and family to become an Arlessa of his lands and that's a far cry from being willing to risk a merge. Besides, Isolde was for love and not any political considerations so that could just be him overlooking her nationality because he loves her rather than having any great fondness for Orlais.

Caillan MIGHT have gotten upset about it with Eamon because he had something in the works with Celene that Eamon didn't know about.  He may simply have still wanted to keep it quiet, and felt Eamon's pushing made that difficult.

Just tossing that out there.

*edit - and whats TPTB?

Modifié par TJPags, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:23 .

[Monica21]

Bahlgan wrote...

No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.

[Yea just like murder in general isn't a crime (sarcasm)

Is this meant to be facetious? I can't tell.

Modifié par Monica21, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:52 .

[Giggles_Manically]

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...
No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.
[/quote]

Yea just like murder in general isn't a crime (sarcasm)
[/quote]
Is this meant to be facetious? I can't tell.

[/quote]
TROLL IS OBVIOUS IS TROLL.

[Reika]

TJPags wrote...


*edit - and whats TPTB?

The Powers That Be.

I still don't have the impression that Eamon would have been in favor of Cailan marrying Celene. It's one thing to marry a noblewoman who essentially gave up everything to marry a Ferelden noble, quite another for the king to marry the ruler of the country that invaded and oppressed the country and was thrown out by his father and his father's allies. I do absolutely believe that Eamon saw a chance at being the power behind Alistair, and might have succeeded if Alistair was unhardened and didn't have either the Warden or Anora with him.

With regards to Bryce Cousland, I can believe he was acting as Cailan's ambassador, but not sure if he was really helping negotiate a wedding though. Because from everything that was said, Bryce and his father faught extremely hard against the Orlesians. It was the Howes who originally toadied up to the Orlesians, but after getting trounced by the Couslands that they eventually joined the rebellion.

[Monica21]

[quote][quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...
No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.
[/quote]

Yea just like murder in general isn't a crime (sarcasm)
[/quote]
Is this meant to be facetious? I can't tell.

[/quote]
TROLL IS OBVIOUS IS TROLL.[/quote][/quote]
QUOTE TAGS THAT ARE FUBARED BY USER ARE FUBARED BY USER.

Modifié par Monica21, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[Giggles_Manically]

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote][quote]Giggles_Manically wrote...

[quote]Monica21 wrote...

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...
No, he's not, and that's not what an accessory after the fact means, not to mention that there is no such law in Ferelden so a modern legal definition doesn't apply. This is feudal politics and might makes right. Loghain did not help Howe conceal it, help him escape, or fail to report it. He simply chose not to punish him, and refusal to punish him is not a crime.
[/quote]

Yea just like murder in general isn't a crime (sarcasm)
[/quote]
Is this meant to be facetious? I can't tell.

[/quote]
TROLL IS OBVIOUS IS TROLL.[/quote][/quote]
QUOTE TAGS THAT ARE FUBARED BY USER ARE FUBARED BY USER.

[/quote]