...and in the RTO DLC , his surviving honor guard says Cailin didn't think he would win at Ostagar. Maybe he wasn't so dumb... or maye they just switched writers.Bruddajakka wrote...
Well, to be fair, Cailin had been in a few fights with the darkspawn at Ostagar before the Warden shows up with Duncan.
Actually from what we hear there's been clashes. Nothing to indicate that Cailen has actually been doing any fighting himself.
Modifié par Obadiah, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:44 .
Or the honor guard who deserted was projecting his own insecurities onto Cailan and trying to assuage his guilt at leaving his King to die by convincing himself that Cailan knew the score.Obadiah wrote...
...and in the RTO DLC , his surviving honor guard says Cailin didn't think he would win at Ostagar. Maybe he wasn't so dumb... or maye they just switched writers.Bruddajakka wrote...
Well, to be fair, Cailin had been in a few fights with the darkspawn at Ostagar before the Warden shows up with Duncan.
Actually from what we hear there's been clashes. Nothing to indicate that Cailen has actually been doing any fighting himself.
Maybe he realized what an idiotic idea marrying Celene was but also that it was a little late to just back out and thus tried to do what was best for Ferelden?Bruddajakka wrote...
Or Cailen thought that by dying spectacular in the most idiotic way possible when it could have been avoided would spur the rest of Ferelden into action, and they'd rally to stomp out the Blight.
He wasn't projecting. He said that is what Cailin told him, not what he thought the King felt.Sarah1281 wrote...
Or the honor guard who deserted was projecting his own insecurities onto Cailan and trying to assuage his guilt at leaving his King to die by convincing himself that Cailan knew the score.
Modifié par Obadiah, 14 septembre 2010 - 05:51 .
He did not say that Cailan said the battle could not be won. He assumed that Cailan didn't think the battle could be won based on the fact that he gave him the key to the important chest. Wanting to make sure an important key is kept safe when you're going into battle =/= you know that you and everyone else is going to die.Obadiah wrote...
He wasn't projecting. He said that is what Cailin told him, not what he thought the King felt.Sarah1281 wrote...
Or the honor guard who deserted was projecting his own insecurities onto Cailan and trying to assuage his guilt at leaving his King to die by convincing himself that Cailan knew the score.
Monica21 wrote...
Is this meant to be facetious? I can't tell.
You realize that choosing not to prosecute/punish someone for a crime they committed does not actually mean that what they did wasn't illegal? And I really don't think failing to punish people for their misdeeds is against the law.I do not know, all I know is I find it facetious the way you in which you defend that the manner of which you truly believe that in feudal society, in this case, murder is not against the law.
What I think is that Ferelden is a mostly feudal society, and a vassal can overthrow his lord with enough support and strength. Blackstone's Commentaries haven't been written yet. What you have on your side is the king. If Cailan's armies marched to Highever and helped you retake it then it's yours. If the king doesn't give a damn and leaves you on your own, you're tossed out on your ear.Bahlgan wrote...
I do not know, all I know is I find it facetious the way you in which you defend that the manner of which you truly believe that in feudal society, in this case, murder is not against the law. Perceptions may change in certain fields, such as dating, "sports", and other traditions to name a paultry few. Then again I suppose there are many things in society that are considered right even when they involve the deaths of thousands.
Just in general am disgusted with the way at which people defend the antagonist and shoot down the protagonists is what it all really comes down to. Reading some of these posts, however, I have observed some seriously SERIOUSLY discredited others for the good in them. Loghain to me is one of those individuals I believe certainly could have handled the situation better, and I am more than sure he knew it. Arl Howe, on the other hand, is just the epitome of what is vastly defined as the kudzu plant: steals the sunlight from others in order to absorb ultraviolet nutrition and thus kill the plants in order to grow and overthrow the entire community of remnant plants.
Do people truly believe that Howe had every right to do what he did? Because I am getting vibes from certain individuals of this indication, as well as that of Loghain's.
Modifié par Monica21, 14 septembre 2010 - 06:15 .
The survivor doesn't say it explicity, but the warden recognized the survivor as a confidant of Cailin. There is a much better chance that he was told or overheard that King thought the battle would not be won, than he just "assumed" that is what the King thought to assuage his own guilt, or because Cailin gave him a key.Sarah1281 wrote...
He did not say that Cailan said the battle could not be won. He assumed that Cailan didn't think the battle could be won based on the fact that he gave him the key to the important chest. Wanting to make sure an important key is kept safe when you're going into battle =/= you know that you and everyone else is going to die.Obadiah wrote...
He wasn't projecting. He said that is what Cailin told him, not what he thought the King felt.Sarah1281 wrote...
Or the honor guard who deserted was projecting his own insecurities onto Cailan and trying to assuage his guilt at leaving his King to die by convincing himself that Cailan knew the score.
Modifié par Obadiah, 14 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .
Sarah1281 wrote...
You realize that choosing not to prosecute/punish someone for a crime they committed does not actually mean that what they did wasn't illegal? And I really don't think failing to punish people for their misdeeds is against the law.I do not know, all I know is I find it facetious the way you in which you defend that the manner of which you truly believe that in feudal society, in this case, murder is not against the law.
What I think is that Ferelden is a mostly feudal society, and a vassal can overthrow his lord with enough support and strength. Blackstone's Commentaries haven't been written yet. What you have on your side is the king. If Cailan's armies marched to Highever and helped you retake it then it's yours. If the king doesn't give a damn and leaves you on your own, you're tossed out on your ear.
I'm not defending the morality of Howe's actions at all. I'm saying that morality isn't a factor.
Modifié par Bahlgan, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:42 .
My stance is first, that we don't have any idea what would have happened to Howe in a legal sense because there are no in-game laws we can point to. If you're looking at it purely from a legal matter, then all you can do is look at modern-day law and Ferelden isn't modern-day. They're considered barbaric even in the rest of Thedas. Secondly, in this kind of society, might makes right. As I said, the king is willing to turn his armies north after Ostagar to retake Highever. As a Cousland, you have at least one bann in the Gnawed Noble Tavern who tells you that his armies are ready for you. These are banns who've sworn fealty to your father and they don't support Howe. He has neither the force nor the noble backing to keep Highever. If he did have those things then getting back the ternyr would be next to impossible.Bahlgan wrote...
Other than I am depicting that you believe in a lesser power ascending the throne after the defeat of his opponent, I am not understanding you stance on this.
We're not talking about our society though, are we? We're talking about Ferelden.I disagree, while Howe wasn't using morality for anything at all really, I seek to strengthen the claim that morals are a very important part in our society. Politics or no, there are lines that shouldn't be crossed.
Monica21 wrote...
What I think is that Ferelden is a mostly feudal society, and a vassal can overthrow his lord with enough support and strength. Blackstone's Commentaries haven't been written yet. What you have on your side is the king. If Cailan's armies marched to Highever and helped you retake it then it's yours. If the king doesn't give a damn and leaves you on your own, you're tossed out on your ear.Bahlgan wrote...
I do not know, all I know is I find it facetious the way you in which you defend that the manner of which you truly believe that in feudal society, in this case, murder is not against the law. Perceptions may change in certain fields, such as dating, "sports", and other traditions to name a paultry few. Then again I suppose there are many things in society that are considered right even when they involve the deaths of thousands.
Just in general am disgusted with the way at which people defend the antagonist and shoot down the protagonists is what it all really comes down to. Reading some of these posts, however, I have observed some seriously SERIOUSLY discredited others for the good in them. Loghain to me is one of those individuals I believe certainly could have handled the situation better, and I am more than sure he knew it. Arl Howe, on the other hand, is just the epitome of what is vastly defined as the kudzu plant: steals the sunlight from others in order to absorb ultraviolet nutrition and thus kill the plants in order to grow and overthrow the entire community of remnant plants.
Do people truly believe that Howe had every right to do what he did? Because I am getting vibes from certain individuals of this indication, as well as that of Loghain's.
I'm not defending the morality of Howe's actions at all. I'm saying that morality isn't a factor.
Which is pretty much what I said. Yes, he took it, but he didn't have the support to hold it. As for knowing about it in advance, it's pretty well stated when a Cousland first meets the king that Howe "could have told any story he wished" had you not survived. He already had a plan before Ostagar.maxernst wrote...
Feudal societies were not lawless. First of all, Howe doesn't have enough strength and support to defeat Bryce Cousland. He's able to take the castle and murder him because Bryce's forces have mostly already departed to support the King. Under those circumstances, the King would certainly be obligated by law and custom to support his vassal. Furthermore, based on what's said about both men in the codex it's unlikely that Cousland's other vassals would swear fealty to Howe...except most of them probably died at Ostagar. Under normal circumstances in a typical feudal society, you would not get away with capturing your lord's castle and murdering him and his family while his army was in the field with the King. Howe takes a huge risk and it pays off only because the King and his army are wiped at Ostagar. Which he couldn't know in advance...or could he?
Monica21 wrote...
My stance is first, that we don't have any idea what would have happened to Howe in a legal sense because there are no in-game laws we can point to. If you're looking at it purely from a legal matter, then all you can do is look at modern-day law and Ferelden isn't modern-day. They're considered barbaric even in the rest of Thedas. Secondly, in this kind of society, might makes right. As I said, the king is willing to turn his armies north after Ostagar to retake Highever. As a Cousland, you have at least one bann in the Gnawed Noble Tavern who tells you that his armies are ready for you. These are banns who've sworn fealty to your father and they don't support Howe. He has neither the force nor the noble backing to keep Highever. If he did have those things then getting back the ternyr would be next to impossible.
We're not talking about our society though, are we? We're talking about Ferelden.
This is a nation where a regent, General, and father of the queen can be beheaded in the middle of a group of nobles and no one bats an eye. Yes, they're barbaric.Bahlgan wrote...
But not all of Ferelden is barbaric! There are several who have advanced in the forms of humility; my Cousland Warden and his family are amongst many of them. And as far as the rest of Thedas goes, they are kinda recessive; of course in "300" Spartans were viewed down upon because they didn't understand the meaning of silverware. You know, something that by itself shouldn't be enough to make them damned in others' eyes.
Where did I say I supported feudal politics? I said that's what it was. I understand how Catholicism works but that doesn't mean I support it. I can argue something from a Catholic perspective though.By the way, you say you do not support Howe's decisions but yet you support the feudal politics. These are criss-crossing statements that are not making any sense to me. They contradict, as in Howe's decision was a pathetic and cold gambit. Do you really insist that you do not side with Howe?
It does matter because your morals don't count. Your morals have nothing to do with how things work in Ferelden, nor do they have much to do with how things work in real life.Doesn't matter because morals are always present in any sort of society, whether poor or excellent, I do not believe modern Ferelden is as barbaric as you make it out to exist. The leaders do not always (in fact, almost never) represent their nation, because there are many different people in one nation.
Modifié par Monica21, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:43 .
Monica21 wrote...
And *sigh* no, he didn't know in advance that Loghain would leave. Loghain didn't even know in advance and Loghain was not working with Howe before Ostagar. Yes, confirmed by Gaider.
Monica21 wrote...
This is a nation where a regent, General, and father of the queen can be beheaded in the middle of a group of nobles and no one bats an eye. Yes, they're barbaric.
Where did I say I supported feudal politics? I said that's what it was. I understand how Catholicism works but that doesn't mean I support it. I can argue something from a Catholic perspective though.
It does matter because your morals don't count. Your morals have nothing to do with how things work in Ferelden, nor do they have much to do with how things work in real life.
And for what it's worth, your PC has pretty flimsy morals. Your PC goes through the game slaughtering where it's necessary and holding back when it's necessary. Killing Howe in his home is murder. In the modern day, you are not judge, jury, and executioner.
jpdipity wrote...
Monica21 wrote...
And *sigh* no, he didn't know in advance that Loghain would leave. Loghain didn't even know in advance and Loghain was not working with Howe before Ostagar. Yes, confirmed by Gaider.
Loghain was working with Howe before Ostagar, but not necessarily with Howe against the Couslands.
"Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so."
http://social.biowar...83297/17#590701
maxernst wrote...
Okay, that helps close one gaping plot hole...so Howe did have reason to think that at the very least he'd have a powerful supporter. I still think the whole Ostagar scenario as envisioned is a giant plot hole:
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