501 réponses à ce sujet

[jackkel dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

I always liked Cailan, and I think this would have been disastrous. Diplomatic ties with Orlais, yes. Intermarriage between lesser nobles, okay- controversial, unpopular, but ok. But this would have been a deeply unpopular move, not just the Orlais part, but Cailan setting Anora aside. Five years is not a long time to give your marriage a chance to produce an heir. Of course, we don't really know what was going on inside the marriage. Anora never re-marries, so there is the possibility she was not .... how to put this delicately... not taking the production of an heir seriously.

Still, if that's the case, you look to Highever, not to Orlais. Maybe you look to the Free Marches so that you can form an alliance that will counterweight Orlais.

Dumb, Cailan. Really dumb.

Remember that Orlais is the power of Thedas at this time. Tevinter is shrunken and weak, and Orlais has taken control. Orlais led the Exalted Marches, is home to the Andrastian Chantry, and nearly conquerred Nevarra and Ferelden. While Cailan is overlooking the disgust of the common Ferelden for Orlais after the Blessed Age occuptaion, Orlais is the choice for obtaining political power.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
Remember that Orlais is the power of Thedas at this time. Tevinter is shrunken and weak, and Orlais has taken control. Orlais led the Exalted Marches, is home to the Andrastian Chantry, and nearly conquerred Nevarra and Ferelden. While Cailan is overlooking the disgust of the common Ferelden for Orlais after the Blessed Age occuptaion, Orlais is the choice for obtaining political power.

Power for himself, not Ferelden. That's in theory.
In practise, well Celene is a mastermind, comparable to Catherine the Great. Cailan is a half wit. So was he really going to obtain anything other than a crown on his useless head? 

He probably will get glory in Orlais and the eternal wrath of Ferelden and be remembered in history as the one who betrayed his nation. But actual political power? Highly doubtful.  

[jackkel dragon]

@KoP: Read my post on the first page. I already called Cailan a glory hound with no real direction except to be remembered. Not an idiot, but might as well be.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...

@KoP: Read my post on the first page. I already called Cailan a glory hound with no real direction except to be remembered. Not an idiot, but might as well be.

Isn't being a glory hound at the expense of everything else a form of immature idiocy?
Depends on how we define "idiot" I guess.

 

[phaonica]

jackkel dragon wrote...

@KoP: Read my post on the first page. I already called Cailan a glory hound with no real direction except to be remembered. Not an idiot, but might as well be.

Being a glory hound with no direction except to be remembered is arguably not idiotic for everyone... however his being king and doing just that does cross the line into idiotic for me. If he could propogate the Theirin bloodline at all, he could do so just as well with a Ferelden.
 
KoP ninja'd me already. should have known.

Modifié par phaonica, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Wedger]

Asepsis wrote...

Anyway, does this conversation with Loghain and Wynne happen during the Return to Ostagar quest?

Yes. 

Taking Wynne, *Dog* and secret companion (cough Loghain cough)  to RTO is a treat and worth doing at least once. 

[Sarah1281]

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?



*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

@KoP: Read my post on the first page. I already called Cailan a glory hound with no real direction except to be remembered. Not an idiot, but might as well be.

Isn't being a glory hound at the expense of everything else a form of immature idiocy?
Depends on how we define "idiot" I guess.

 

You have a point. I was defining idiot as a brain-dead moron. Cailan is being self-centered and immature, which could be counted as a type of idiocy.

Why do I like Cailan better knowing that he's even more narcissistic than I thought?

[jackkel dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

Good move. Unhardened Alistair is, in theory, worse than Cailan. Alistair has more conventional morals, but is a terrible leader. Too bad the ending doesn't reflect that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
You have a point. I was defining idiot as a brain-dead moron. Cailan is being self-centered and immature, which could be counted as a type of idiocy.

Why do I like Cailan better knowing that he's even more narcissistic than I thought?

Well someone who finds strategy boring in the middle of a war and who thinks wars are like tales and that he hopes for it being a blight because it wouldn't be glorious otherwise....I would see as a brain-dead moron. Or at the very least a brain-dead moronic king. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...
*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

I want to be extreme and say to hell with all the Therein line

But that wouldn't be fair. Unhardened Alistair might be as bad as Cailan. Hardened Alistair is much much better.
And as a result, I am starting to like the guy a bit more now.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
You have a point. I was defining idiot as a brain-dead moron. Cailan is being self-centered and immature, which could be counted as a type of idiocy.

Why do I like Cailan better knowing that he's even more narcissistic than I thought?

Well someone who finds strategy boring in the middle of a war and who thinks wars are like tales and that he hopes for it being a blight because it wouldn't be glorious otherwise....I would see as a brain-dead moron. Or at the very least a brain-dead moronic king. 

This calls for: 

Good move. Unhardened Alistair is, in theory, worse than Cailan. Alistair has more conventional morals, but is a terrible leader. Too bad the ending doesn't reflect that.

That's because Eamon or you serve as his own personal Anora and make all his decisions for him while he goes and meets the people.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

Well... hmm... If we've now been told that the marriage was true, and that that *is* the conclusion we were supposed to draw from it, should we then assume that the characters were able to draw that conclusion? Or should we assume that they couldn't draw it any better than we could? Hm.

[Wedger]

I would debate that Cailan was doing what he thought was right for the country and not for himself.



He listened to his Dad's old friends too much. That seemed to be what got him in trouble.

[Sarah1281]

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

Well... hmm... If we've now been told that the marriage was true, and that that *is* the conclusion we were supposed to draw from it, should we then assume that the characters were able to draw that conclusion? Or should we assume that they couldn't draw it any better than we could? Hm.

Loghain clearly sees it and Wynne doesn't mind the thought but thinks Cailan and Anora's twu wuv would stop such a thing. Who knows if Alistair gets it or not.

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
You have a point. I was defining idiot as a brain-dead moron. Cailan is being self-centered and immature, which could be counted as a type of idiocy.

Why do I like Cailan better knowing that he's even more narcissistic than I thought?

Well someone who finds strategy boring in the middle of a war and who thinks wars are like tales and that he hopes for it being a blight because it wouldn't be glorious otherwise....I would see as a brain-dead moron. Or at the very least a brain-dead moronic king. 

Only my interpretation, but the whole "war is glorious" thing seemed to be Cailan hiding that he knew the battle was not winnable, yet showing his true face at the same time: war is just a game to him, a claim to glory. Even if he didn't win, he thought fighting with the Grey Wardens would get him remembered.

Now for the bored by strategy, you may have me. There's no excuse for blatently refusing to speak with your strategist in war, even if the battle is already decided in your mind. Whether or not Cailan knew the battle was winnable, he was a brain-dead moron for refusing help. I could go back to my self-centered immature thing here, but both idiocy descriptions fit perfectly.

Ah, Cailan. If you only listened to the boring things just one time...

[jackkel dragon]

I was waiting for this.

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

This calls for: 
*bore, strategy img*quote]

[KnightofPhoenix]

What I am really curious about is Eamon. Did he plan this? Because nothing really suggests that he did. OF course, he could have, but I think it's a bit unfair for us to accuse him of this. Not while we do not have proof.
  

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...
*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

I want to be extreme and say to hell with all the Therein line

But that wouldn't be fair. Unhardened Alistair might be as bad as Cailan. Hardened Alistair is much much better.
And as a result, I am starting to like the guy a bit more now.

I'm not. I don't think Alistair is as inclined to seek glory, but I think he's every bit as open to manipulation, just of a different kind. I'll agree that unhardened Alistair is worse than hardened Alistair, but as Sarah suggests, it's possible that Alistair thought the Celene+Cailan match was a good idea... that's doesn't lead me to believe he'd be much better than Cailan.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

It could be he simply assumes it was diplomatic and not a marriage negotiation.  Let's recall that none of us were sure until today, either.  And Loghain is still a traitor.  Regardless of whether you think Cailan was wrong or not, it was for the Landsmeet to tell him so, not an advisor via plots and poisons.

[Wedger]

But Cailan did listen to his Master Strategist - look where that got him

[Elhanan]

For myself, it matters little what Cailan considered; he was murdered for other reason anyway. It matters more that Eamon was subscribed to such thoughts, and that Anora might be tossed aside for not producing an heir.

As for Alistair, he lost a brother. While they were not close, Cailan's orders removed Alistair from the field of battle; a possible act of protection and compassion. Guilt, regret, and what if's could be involved in the mind set as well as a chance for peace.

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Hardened Alistair is much much better.
And as a result, I am starting to like the guy a bit more now.

Hardened Alistair reminds me of Hardened Maric from the last 50 pages of the Stolen Throne. Both are the definition of badass to me. Too bad Alistair does cooler things but Maric has a better Hardening scene...

Cailan has nothing on Maric. Probably why he, oh I don't know, walks into certain death willingly? (Yeah, KoP. No matter how you say it, Cailan was an idiot. Just not completely brain dead. Except for the strategy. Thanks for clearing that up for me. )

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
Only my interpretation, but the whole "war is glorious" thing seemed to be Cailan hiding that he knew the battle was not winnable, yet showing his true face at the same time: war is just a game to him, a claim to glory. Even if he didn't win, he thought fighting with the Grey Wardens would get him remembered.

Thinking that war is a game also makes him an idiot.
And thinking that the battle was unwinnable and still going in and risking the fate of his entire country? Idiot. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli and all theorists on war would be facepalming so much right now.

[rwilli80]

Anyone consider that this could have been Cailan's way of taking over Orleia?