501 réponses à ce sujet

[Reika]

I don't think Howe would've left Fergus's death to chance. I'm fairly certain he probably arranged for an accident to occur at some point. Possibly even "bandits"



The impression I got about Highever is that Howe had things locked down tight in the teyrn. When you're in the Arl of Denerim's estate to rescue Anora there are guards talking about Highever. One of them comments that he's grateful looks can't kill otherwise they'd be very dead and how they have to have such a large number of guards to keep the peace.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
All Couslands are NOT dead.  Fergus is very much alive and well - he wasn't at Highever, he was at Ostagar, and off scouting.
So, UNLESS he dies somehow, he inherits Highever - and has pretty much the entire army of Highever to back his claim.

Assassins, problem delt with. Howe has contacts with the Antivan crows.
He problably thought that he died at Ostagar anyways, but had Ostagar been a victory, he would have made sure to find some way to eliminate him before he gets back to Highever. Howe is too smart to have not planned Fergus' elimination.

All I was doing was correcting you.  You said all Couslands were dead.  That's not correct.

Whatever Howe may have done - and sure, he may have had him killed, or tried to - the fact remains, Fergus was alive.  That's why I emphasized UNLESS.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
All I was doing was correcting you.  You said all Couslands were dead.  That's not correct.

Whatever Howe may have done - and sure, he may have had him killed, or tried to - the fact remains, Fergus was alive.  That's why I emphasized UNLESS.

Hence why I added "if everything went according to plan", but yes I shoud have been clearer on what I meant. I am fully aware Fergus didn't die.

[Giggles_Manically]

If Calian was thinking about anything it would most likely be this at Ostagar:

Oh boy cant wait to get out of here and score with Celene!

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You do realize that I specifically said I wasn't talking about Cailan in specific, right? Just the idea that 'Cailan was King so that ends all discussion and Loghain should have done what he said' is rather silly.

So you mentioning Cailan in your last quote was merely coincidence? I do not know about that. V

I just love the obligatory 'Cailan is King and so if he wanted Loghain to march his men down one at a time for the darkspawn to eat then Loghain should have ****ing done it because that's how a monarchy works!' opinion. 

Sounded like you mentioned him to me. Just saying 

But enough about semantics:

While I realize that Cailan DID NOT DO THIS, had he decided that they were all going to surrender to the darkspawn and be eaten or turned into broodmothers then

I am sorry, but unless confirmed by Gaider that he intentionally sacrificed his troops, I cannot believe you stating Cailan as suicidal. Sorry, no can do.

- King or no King - Loghain would have had a responsibility to ignore this and try to find a better option. Even had Ferelden been an absolute monarchy, at some point a line needs to be drawn. If power is being abused so blatantly, go find a freaking line.

Even if Cailan was idealistic beyond normal kings, his men were positively influenced about it. That is how many battles are drawn out. Most people do not know what they are truly dying for outside of loyalty. However, I WILL state that his men died for freedom from the Blight. What did Loghain die for? All I see in him was someone who didn't have it in him to keep it cool when the chips were down. I don't believe him to be a sufficient leader. And we all know what Howe died for, greedy bastard.

All I was saying with that post was that 'Cailan is the King' should not be the end all be all and those other factors such as whether they could have won, how long Loghain was planning this, whether trying to save Cailan would have been worth the cost, ect. are more important than Cailan's title.

Seems good enough, but that's not how life works. You cannot always do what you wish to do, plain and simple, and the matter in the choice came down to this elemental reference. Not everything in the world is fair, and sometimes people Loghain has to do what he may not feel is best for Ferelden. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it. And even if the battle would have been lost, there would have certainly be fewer darkspawn should more forces have fought instead of retreat. Not all losses are in vain, if we should even call that possibility a loss; it could have been a victory. Who is to say that it wouldn't have been?

And I am pretty sure that Duncan would have done a fine job protecting Cailan, had "someone else" had at least tried to watch the backs of the front lines.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Bahlgan]

I don't think Howe would've left Fergus's death to chance. I'm fairly certain he probably arranged for an accident to occur at some point. Possibly even "bandits"

Isn't that what Fergus tells the Cousland Warden at post-coronation ceremony: that he got ambushed and nearly slain by a bandit assault? I forgot whether it were to be darkspawn or bandits working for that grievous worm of an arl.

The impression I got about Highever is that Howe had things locked down tight in the teyrn. When you're in the Arl of Denerim's estate to rescue Anora there are guards talking about Highever. One of them comments that he's grateful looks can't kill otherwise they'd be very dead and how they have to have such a large number of guards to keep the peace.

Wasn't it Arl Wolfe who talks to the Cousland Warden about how West Hills and Highever were both plagued by Darkspawn? Something tells me at one point the darkspawn, had there been any, would drive out the guards enforced by Howe in Highever.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[Addai]

quote
I am sorry, but unless confirmed by Gaider that he intentionally
sacrificed his troops, I cannot believe you stating Cailan as suicidal.
Sorry, no can do.
quote

(husband)

Dude!

You just got to add up the in game information to reach this conclusion from the main game and Return to Ostagar.  If you add up him refusing Loghain request that he not fight on the front line.   When you enter in comments by his honor guard that "in spite of the King''s bravado.  The King knew it was hopefless" and a few other ones you can practically construct a Geometric proof that would irrestibly lead to that conclusion.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Bahlgan]

Addai67 wrote...

quote
I am sorry, but unless confirmed by Gaider that he intentionally
sacrificed his troops, I cannot believe you stating Cailan as suicidal.
Sorry, no can do.
quote

(husband)

Dude!

You just got to add up the in game information to reach this conclusion from the main game and Return to Ostagar.  If you add up him refusing Loghain request that he not fight on the front line.   When you enter in comments by his honor guard that "in spite of the King''s bravado.  The King knew it was hopefless" and a few other ones you can practically construct a Geometric proof that would irrestibly lead to that conclusion.

That may have been what the honor guard felt, but that is just his opinion. I do not feel that is what Cailan felt. He may have known he was risking alot by fighting this wave of darkspawn, but I do not believe he was literally suicidal. As far as him being requested not to go into the front lines was a form of arrogance. Not everything can be solved through context of what others say on the behalf of a single man/woman.

[Sabariel]

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

[Herr Uhl]

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

She wouldn't.

[Sabariel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

She wouldn't.

She wouldn't? Why not? I can see her dumping Cailan earlier than five years later if he wasn't "performing" to her standards.

[Sarah1281]

Sabariel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

She wouldn't.

She wouldn't? Why not? I can see her dumping Cailan earlier than five years later if he wasn't "performing" to her standards.

Well, her solo epilogue shows that she wouldn't be all that concerned with replacing him if she did dump him. If she didn't care to find someone else the whole 'he can't get me pregnant' excuse wouldn't really fly.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

You mean marry an Orlesian Emperor? Heck no.

[Sabariel]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

She wouldn't.

She wouldn't? Why not? I can see her dumping Cailan earlier than five years later if he wasn't "performing" to her standards.

Well, her solo epilogue shows that she wouldn't be all that concerned with replacing him if she did dump him. If she didn't care to find someone else the whole 'he can't get me pregnant' excuse wouldn't really fly.

She was Loghain's daughter in that epilogue however. I meant if she were Maric's all-important-daughter-omg-must-make-a-baby-with-theirin-blood instead she would act just the same as Cailan if no heir was produced.

[Reika]

Bahlgan wrote...

I don't think Howe would've left Fergus's death to chance. I'm fairly certain he probably arranged for an accident to occur at some point. Possibly even "bandits"

Isn't that what Fergus tells the Cousland Warden at post-coronation ceremony: that he got ambushed and nearly slain by a bandit assault? I forgot whether it were to be darkspawn or bandits working for that grievous worm of an arl.

He got attacked by Darkspawn in the Wilds. I meant if things had gone differently at Ostagar, I could've seen Howe using bandits to take Fergus out. In fact in Awakenings Nate saves Fergus from bandits, of course I've always wondered if they were bandits, or some of Howe's men trying to get back at him.

Wasn't it Arl Wolfe who talks to the Cousland Warden about how West Hills and Highever were both plagued by Darkspawn? Something tells me at one point the darkspawn, had there been any, would drive out the guards enforced by Howe in Highever.

Wolfe only talks about West Hills, Highever is up north by Amaranthine, I don't think the Darkspawn had gotten too bad up there yet. It was mainly southern Ferelden like West Hills, Redcliffe, Lothering and Dragon's Peak.

[Herr Uhl]

Sabariel wrote...

She was Loghain's daughter in that epilogue however. I meant if she were Maric's all-important-daughter-omg-must-make-a-baby-with-theirin-blood instead she would act just the same as Cailan if no heir was produced.

Then she wouldn't be Anora.

[Sabariel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

She was Loghain's daughter in that epilogue however. I meant if she were Maric's all-important-daughter-omg-must-make-a-baby-with-theirin-blood instead she would act just the same as Cailan if no heir was produced.

Then she wouldn't be Anora.

That's your opinion

[Herr Uhl]

Sabariel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

She was Loghain's daughter in that epilogue however. I meant if she were Maric's all-important-daughter-omg-must-make-a-baby-with-theirin-blood instead she would act just the same as Cailan if no heir was produced.

Then she wouldn't be Anora.

That's your opinion

An upbringing influences people. Anora's upbringing made her who she is. If she had the same as Cailan, she might have been as much of an idiot, but she wouldn't be Anora.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
An upbringing influences people. Anora's upbringing made her who she is. If she had the same as Cailan, she might have been as much of an idiot, but she wouldn't be Anora.

Would she be...Cailanora?

[Sabariel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

She was Loghain's daughter in that epilogue however. I meant if she were Maric's all-important-daughter-omg-must-make-a-baby-with-theirin-blood instead she would act just the same as Cailan if no heir was produced.

Then she wouldn't be Anora.

That's your opinion

An upbringing influences people. Anora's upbringing made her who she is. If she had the same as Cailan, she might have been as much of an idiot, but she wouldn't be Anora.

Well if she turned out to be "as much of an idiot" as Cailan then she'd still dump him as Cailan dumped Anora

Edit: Or should I say "planned to dump Anora" as he died before he could divorce her.

Modifié par Sabariel, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Sarah1281]

If Anora were Maric's...odds on him trying to name her Katriel?

[Bahlgan]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

As if Anora wouldn't do the same to Cailan if their positions were switched

She wouldn't.

Second that. She is just as valorous, yet I do not see her being "hot headed" and charging in the front lines either. I would see her playing tactical strategist. She would be playing the Queen in Chess, if anything.

He got attacked by Darkspawn in the Wilds. I meant if things had gone differently at Ostagar, I could've seen Howe using bandits to take Fergus out. In fact in Awakenings Nate saves Fergus from bandits, of course I've always wondered if they were bandits, or some of Howe's men trying to get back at him.

Fergus?? Attacked by bandits?? Not if I can help it!! My Cousland would never allow it, I would be there to save his life!! Brotherly love forever!!! 

And the bandits were most likely employed by die-hard Loghain fanatics, or some mysteriously independent force, seeing as to how Nathaniel (a Howe himself) would be protecting his "enemy" from bandits employed by the Howes, if that would ever be the case. Would be quite an odd twist if Nate slew those his eel father Rendon had sworn to send to slay Fergus.

Wolfe only talks about West Hills, Highever is up north by Amaranthine, I don't think the Darkspawn had gotten too bad up there yet. It was mainly southern Ferelden like West Hills, Redcliffe, Lothering and Dragon's Peak.

Hmmm... Could have sworn I heard Wolfe talking about Highever too. I know he pretty much hounds at the Warden saying "We have not enough members of your personal guard of the terynir to take your pampered ass back to Highever", I suppose that was the extent of his mentioning Highever then.

So it was just Howe's mercenaries and personal units still occupying Highever after the sieging? Well thank the Maker no darkspawn then.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Reika]

[quote]Bahlgan wrote...

Fergus?? Attacked by bandits?? Not if I can help it!! My Cousland would never allow it, I would be there to save his life!! Brotherly love forever!!! 

[/quote]

Hey, not my idea. It was one of Nate's epilogues in Awakening, I got it both times I played through it too.

[quote} Bahlgan wrote...

And the bandits were most likely employed by die-hard Loghain fanatics, or some mysteriously independent force, seeing as to how Nathaniel (a Howe himself) would be protecting his "enemy" from bandits employed by the Howes, if that would ever be the case. Would be quite an odd twist if Nate slew those his eel father Rendon had sworn to send to slay Fergus.

[/quote]

Or they could have just been bandits. But being the weird person that I am, I like it being Howe's forces. Though Loghain's work too, but I'd see them being more likely to go after Fergus's little sister, the one who actually killed Loghain.

[quote]
Hmmm... Could have sworn I heard Wolfe talking about Highever too. I know he pretty much hounds at the Warden saying "We have not enough members of your personal guard of the terynir to take your pampered ass back to Highever", I suppose that was the extent of his mentioning Highever then.

So it was just Howe's mercenaries and personal units still occupying Highever after the sieging? Well thank the Maker no darkspawn then.
[/quote]

I'll have to load one of my saves where my HNF was talking with Wolfe to double check what he was saying.

Pretty sure there would be some darkspawn, especially after the Final Battle, just not in the numbers that you saw in southern Ferelden. I still think Howe's forces would be the biggest threat.

[Bahlgan]

[quote]Reika wrote...

Hey, not my idea. It was one of Nate's epilogues in Awakening, I got it both times I played through it too.[/quote]

Somehow I am getting the feeling you did not catch my joke there. Didn't mean to accuse you of anything. 

[quote]Or they could have just been bandits. But being the weird person that I am, I like it being Howe's forces. Though Loghain's work too, but I'd see them being more likely to go after Fergus's little sister, the one who actually killed Loghain.[/quote]

I take it you speak on your behalf. Yea the Warden should be a higher priority target, but if they were Howe's remnants, I suppose they would settle for his (in my case) brother. Perhaps his forces did not believe they had the cajones after all to take someone as almighty as our great Warden!

[quote]I'll have to load one of my saves where my HNF was talking with Wolfe to double check what he was saying.

Pretty sure there would be some darkspawn, especially after the Final Battle, just not in the numbers that you saw in southern Ferelden. I still think Howe's forces would be the biggest threat. [/quote]

[/quote]

Maybe I am wrong. But I do not doubt still some darkspawn threat. In fact, I am willing to bet that Howe's forces were too occupied helping the political outlet that the darkspawn had flanked them.