501 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I am really curious about is Eamon. Did he plan this? Because nothing really suggests that he did. OF course, he could have, but I think it's a bit unfair for us to accuse him of this. Not while we do not have proof.
  

I'm taking Eamon's letter as planting the seeds. Cailan may have already been in some kind of negotiation with Celene and saw an opportunity for himself, but certainly not for Ferelden. Eamon may not have known what his advice would lead to, but it's still stupid advice.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

@KoP: Read my post on the first page. I already called Cailan a glory hound with no real direction except to be remembered. Not an idiot, but might as well be.

Isn't being a glory hound at the expense of everything else a form of immature idiocy?
Depends on how we define "idiot" I guess.

 

Cailan no doubt saw what he was doing as something good for Ferelden and not just a matter of his personal legacy.  Just as Loghain thought what he was doing was for Ferelden and not a personal vendetta.  One would probably have weakened the country through an unwise alliance, the other would have destroyed the country and possibly neighboring countries by allowing them to be ravaged by Blight.

[rak72]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

I don't think he saw the romantic intentions  of the letter, I think he just saw it as a diplomatic letter.  When I saw the letter I thought it was more diplomatic, and the romance was a streach.  Logain tends to be paranoid, so I attributed his reaction to that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

phaonica wrote...
 I'll agree that unhardened Alistair is worse than hardened Alistair, but as Sarah suggests, it's possible that Alistair thought the Celene+Cailan match was a good idea... that's doesn't lead me to believe he'd be much better than Cailan.

I didn't say I liked him well enough to put him on the throne  Never.

[phaonica]

Sarah1281 wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just remembered something: When Alistair is in your party at RtO when you find Cailan's letters, he is upset that Cailan died before he could bring lasting peace to the two nations. Does he assume that Cailan isn't that much of an idiot as to marry Celene or does he realize that that's what it's about and thinks it's actually a good plan?

*further resolves to never leave unhardened Alistair alone on throne*

Well... hmm... If we've now been told that the marriage was true, and that that *is* the conclusion we were supposed to draw from it, should we then assume that the characters were able to draw that conclusion? Or should we assume that they couldn't draw it any better than we could? Hm.

Loghain clearly sees it and Wynne doesn't mind the thought but thinks Cailan and Anora's twu wuv would stop such a thing. Who knows if Alistair gets it or not.

Yeah, I didn' remember why exactly, but I had the impression that Wynne all around supported Cailan's plan to get help from the Orlesians. Still, just because we now know that Loghain was right in his conclusion, it doesn't necessarily mean that it we were supposed to be able to draw a definitive conclusion from it.

[Sarah1281]

rwilli80 wrote...

Anyone consider that this could have been Cailan's way of taking over Orleia?

No because it's a stupid plan that never would have worked and Celene was infinitely smarter than he was. If he DID try to do this he's even more of an idiot than I thought.

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Thinking that war is a game also makes him an idiot.

Already revised my deifinition of idiot. Thanks, by the way.

And thinking that the battle was unwinnable and still going in and risking the fate of his entire country? Idiot. Sun Tzu, Machiavelli and all theorists on war would be facepalming so much right now.

You gotta put on a good show for your people. Even if they will end up impaled on darkspawn spears because of you. Still, major facepalm on anyone who actually wants to, you know, live.

Glory =/= Being Alive

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Cailan no doubt saw what he was doing as something good for Ferelden and not just a matter of his personal legacy.  Just as Loghain thought what he was doing was for Ferelden and not a personal vendetta.  One would probably have weakened the country through an unwise alliance, the other would have destroyed the country and possibly neighboring countries by allowing them to be ravaged by Blight.

Loghain' case deals with an extra-ordinary event that could not be proven or predicted and is ignorant of (the blight / nature of the Wardens). Cailan was dealing with basic politics that even a child can understand.

Cailan made an error (no thought, or logic put into this). Loghain made a mistake (premise that wardens are not necessary was false but he could not have known).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[jackkel dragon]

@KoP: Cailan's such an ignorant fool, isn't he? At least Loghain's plan made sense.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
You gotta put on a good show for your people. Even if they will end up impaled on darkspawn spears because of you. Still, major facepalm on anyone who actually wants to, you know, live.

Glory =/= Being Alive

Well if you take all the army with you in a good show....who is going to protect the people long enough to remember what you did?

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I am really curious about is Eamon. Did he plan this? Because nothing really suggests that he did. OF course, he could have, but I think it's a bit unfair for us to accuse him of this. Not while we do not have proof.
  

I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Eamon knew that Cailan would consider Celene as a marriage match. Divorcing Anora over the heir issue, imo, is not a terrible reason to divorce her, so I'm not going to hate on Eamon for suggesting it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...

@KoP: Cailan's such an ignorant fool, isn't he? At least Loghain's plan made sense.

Indeed.

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
You gotta put on a good show for your people. Even if they will end up impaled on darkspawn spears because of you. Still, major facepalm on anyone who actually wants to, you know, live.

Glory =/= Being Alive

Well if you take all the army with you in a good show....who is going to protect the people long enough to remember what you did?

Cailan saw the movie version of the Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. He thought being killed by the evil horde (Orcs/darkspawn) would automatically get him remembered in the legends (songs) just because he did something cool (horn of Helm/Tower of Ishal). Yeah, he's read too many stories.

He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Part of this is because of Maric, if he had put some effort into raising him properly. But Maric is not an examplary father.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Cailan no doubt saw what he was doing as something good for Ferelden and not just a matter of his personal legacy.  Just as Loghain thought what he was doing was for Ferelden and not a personal vendetta.  One would probably have weakened the country through an unwise alliance, the other would have destroyed the country and possibly neighboring countries by allowing them to be ravaged by Blight.

Loghain' case deals with an extra-ordinary event that could not be proven or predicted and is ignorant of (the blight / nature of the Wardens). Cailan was dealing with basic politics that even a child can understand.

Cailan made an error (no thought, or logic put into this). Loghain made a mistake (premise that wardens are not necessary was false but he could not have known).

My point is that both men's weaknesses would have had bad consequences if they had been allowed to run their course, and Loghain's definitely disastrous consequences.  The reason Loghain was so paranoid about Wardens was the big, flashing neon read "Orlesian" sign he imagined was over their heads.

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Part of this is because of Maric, if he had put some effort into raising him properly. But Maric is not an examplary father.

5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
My point is that both men's weaknesses would have had bad consequences if they had been allowed to run their course, and Loghain's definitely disastrous consequences.  The reason Loghain was so paranoid about Wardens was the big, flashing neon read "Orlesian" sign he imagined was over their heads.

And he had good reason to, but we already discussed this at great length.

Yes, both would have had bad consequences. But I would not consider Loghain an idiot for it. Cailan, definately. For the reasons stated before.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jackkel dragon wrote...
5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

Somehow, that sounds very likely to have happened  

[phaonica]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Part of this is because of Maric, if he had put some effort into raising him properly. But Maric is not an examplary father.

I completely agree.

[phaonica]

jackkel dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Part of this is because of Maric, if he had put some effort into raising him properly. But Maric is not an examplary father.

5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

Yeah, no lie, Cailan seems to have been raised exactly like that. What did they think was going to happen, honestly?

[jackkel dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

Somehow, that sounds very likely to have happened  

The sad thing is, the only line that doesn't have a real equivalent in the books or game is Maric spilling the beans. Cailan had some wierd childhood stories... Learning his father played the field... when he wasn't even a teenager yet...

That had no effect on Cailan's "adventures."

[jackkel dragon]

phaonica wrote...
What did they think was going to happen, honestly?

I lay most of the blame on Mother Ailis. The Stolen Throne ends with her claiming that Cailan was going to be better than Maric...

How much lyrium was she smoking?

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[Monica21]

jackkel dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
He tries too hard to outdo Maric.

Part of this is because of Maric, if he had put some effort into raising him properly. But Maric is not an examplary father.

5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

I lol'd.

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...
5-year old Cailan: Daddy, why did you leave me?
Maric: Uhh... nothing do do with having an illegitimate son, that's for sure.

12-year old Cailan: Mother Ailis, what did Daddy do during the war?
Ailis: He saved the day. Against all odds. Multiple times. Do you want to hear about his... ahem.. romantic conquests?
Cailin: Yes! Yes!

~25 Year old Cailan: Strategy? Poh. Just make sure I look aswsome for the engravings.
Loghain: I don't need this...

Somehow, that sounds very likely to have happened  

Oh, that was great.