501 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

If Cailan had a bit more going on in the brain department, he would have divorced Anora and gone for either a lesser Ferelden noble's wife or some aristocrat from somewhere other than Orlais. Antiva has nobility, Nevarra did at some point, hell if he wants to shack up with the Wardens so bad, the Anderfels has royalty. There are plenty of options and Loghain's ravings aside, Ferelden probably still isn't all that hot on the Orlesians.



There stands the remote chance that Cailan is actually not a complete frigging moron and was hammering out some sort of clause/plan wherein the countries would technically remain divided (think Phillip and Mary of England- their kingdoms did not merge) and that the hope is that there would be several children so their would be an heir for each kingdom.





Somehow, I doubt that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
There stands the remote chance that Cailan is actually not a complete frigging moron and was hammering out some sort of clause/plan wherein the countries would technically remain divided (think Phillip and Mary of England- their kingdoms did not merge) and that the hope is that there would be several children so their would be an heir for each kingdom.


Somehow, I doubt that.

Philip was still a prince when he got married though, it was arranged by his faher. And technically, Philip became the king of England and co-ruled with Mary. And that move was very unpopular and was seen as an attempt to make England dependant on Spain and as a way to restore catholicism. Mary also died too soon, and Philip no longer considered as king, for Spain to be able to effectively dominate England. But the fear was there and it was legitimate.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 06:24 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
My point is that both men's weaknesses would have had bad consequences if they had been allowed to run their course, and Loghain's definitely disastrous consequences.  The reason Loghain was so paranoid about Wardens was the big, flashing neon read "Orlesian" sign he imagined was over their heads.

And he had good reason to, but we already discussed this at great length.

Yes, both would have had bad consequences. But I would not consider Loghain an idiot for it. Cailan, definately. For the reasons stated before.

No, but does it matter?  Being caught in your personal weaknesses such that you nearly destroy your entire country is something both of them share.  Unless you really consider it such a praiseworthy thing to be tripped up by fixation and ruthlessness versus being tripped up by fixation and naivete.  To paraphrase Ser Bryant, the cottage burns down either way.

Really, I would back off on your triumphalism over this.  As I said earlier, it doesn't absolve Loghain in any way of treason.  Whether Ferelden loses itself because it's absorbed into Orlais or loses itself because a domestic traitor decides to insitute a shadow coup and then a brutal military coup is half dozen and six.  The marriage to Celene would have had to go through the Landsmeet.  Loghain just dispensed with that little formality.  Which is really better?

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...

I always liked Cailan, and I think this would have been disastrous. Diplomatic ties with Orlais, yes. Intermarriage between lesser nobles, okay- controversial, unpopular, but ok. But this would have been a deeply unpopular move, not just the Orlais part, but Cailan setting Anora aside. Five years is not a long time to give your marriage a chance to produce an heir. Of course, we don't really know what was going on inside the marriage. Anora never re-marries, so there is the possibility she was not .... how to put this delicately... not taking the production of an heir seriously.

Still, if that's the case, you look to Highever, not to Orlais. Maybe you look to the Free Marches so that you can form an alliance that will counterweight Orlais.

Dumb, Cailan. Really dumb.

Agreed.

*shakes head*

[eucatastrophe]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So against all odds, Loghain was right that Cailan really was planning on dumping Anora to marry Empress Celene? I did not honestly think anyone would be that stupid... Thoughts? 

Okay I see you have posted some stuff by DG, as well the RtO convo with the Companion...
but is there somewhere else this (cailan/empress) is mentioned?

from those 3 letters, i never got a "romance" sense... :?:?

Edit - watched the video.
I must say people are leagues more perceptive than I am. I never got the sense of a romance from those letters. And I take everything Loghain says with a truckload of salt

Edit 2-
After watching the video several times (13:00 onwards I find to more illuminating), I think that it would not have been a clever move at all. Had Cailan had a more domineering personality, it would have had reasonable chance of working out (Ferelden and Orlais combined, Civil War within Ferelden averted, new superpower in Thedas). 

But given Cailan's puppy dog temperament, it would have been Catherine, I mean, Celine pulling the strings. That too, in the event there was a successful marriage. I couldn't see the nobility agreeing to this sort of union.

If indeed that was what the nobles had collectively planned (to get Cailan to marry the Empress, then pull the strings on the Empress) then that just speaks of their arrogance if Celine is anything like Catherine the Great - and if she is, she'll have those arls dancing to her tune before they even know it

Modifié par eucatastrophe, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[CalJones]

I'm borrowing this from the Loghain thread because it's awesome.







Trust these revelations to come while I'm asleep so I have to read through pages and pages of posts. Grrr. But anyway. I always thought Cailan was an idiot - even on my first playthrough. The guy is boozing it up with the wardens when he should be discussing strategy with Loghain. He thinks war is glorious, and is sad there's no archdemon at Ostagar. He's a prize twit.

Still, whilst my love for Loghain burns with the intensity of a bad UTI, even I thought he made a bit of a leap to assume the Ostagar letters implied marriage to Celene.

I guess Loghain can sense Orlesian plots the way wardens can sense darkspawn.

[Costin_Razvan]

I guess Loghain can sense Orlesian plots the way wardens can sense darkspawn.

Now that warrants a TIM quote.

"The simple-minded focused on the holes in the story; they needed an explanation for every loose end. The intelligent filled in the holes themselves, using logic, reason, and creative thinking." - The Illusive Man, Mass Effect: Retribution.

Oh and OP:

What was Cailan thinking?

Cailan, THINKING?! Loghain would sooner swear fealty Celene, Bhelen would sooner embrace Harrowmont as his King and Eamon would not be a power hungry bastard before such a feat would be accomplished!

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Wulfram]

Loghain couldn't pull Cailan's strings,  Why assume the Empress could?

[ashwind]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I guess Loghain can sense Orlesian plots the way wardens can sense darkspawn.

Now that warrants a TIM quote.

"The simple-minded focused on the holes in the story; they needed an explanation for every loose end. The intelligent filled in the holes themselves, using logic, reason, and creative thinking." - The Illusive Man, Mass Effect: Retribution.

Oh and OP:

What was Cailan thinking?

Cailan, THINKING?! Loghain would sooner swear fealty Celene, Bhelen would sooner embrace Harrowmont as his King and Eamon would not be a power hungry bastard before such a feat would be accomplished!

Hahaha that's the first thought that came to mind when I read the title.

Cailan: I dont think...
Conner: Of course you dont!

:devil::devil:

[CalJones]

It's nature for a young man to rebel against older authority figures in order to secure his own place in the heirarchy. You see it in herds of animals, prides of lions and in teenagers rebelling against their fathers. Cailan doesn't have a father, but Loghain, by virtue of being his father-in-law and Maric's best friend, is the closest thing.

Women, on the other hand, are a different matter. A smart woman can have a man wrapped around her little finger with relative ease, and Celene is a very shrewd woman indeed.

[Elhanan]

Cailan's greatest error was in not moving further away from the In-laws to avoid frequent interference. Or going to work in the wife's family business. That, and braiding one's hair so tight about your ears that you can be surprised by an Ogre....

[Raonar]

Was it actually stated that Eamon knew about Cailan wanting to hook up with Celene, let alone suggest it? I'm asking because I'm not exactly sure it was and I can't watch the video right now (at work, no headphones for some reason. Forgot them eslwhere.)

[Elhanan]

Here is a link to the second of the Codex entries:

http://dragonage.wik...s_-_Page_2_of_3

Modifié par Elhanan, 06 septembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[CalJones]

No. Eamon had urged Cailan to put Anora aside due to the lack of heirs thus far (letter in RtO) but there is nothing there, nor in Gaider's video, mentioning that Eamon was behind Cailan's ambition to wed Celene.

[Dean_the_Young]

I agree.



Anora not having a child: a real, reasonable problem (even though the assumption it can lay only on Anora's part is primitive).



The solution of that being to marry the Empress of Orlais: Cailan's own design, for himself and perhaps for what he thought it might to for the good of Ferelden.



Eamon's problem did not necessitate Cailan's solution.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

No. Eamon had urged Cailan to put Anora aside due to the lack of heirs thus far (letter in RtO) but there is nothing there, nor in Gaider's video, mentioning that Eamon was behind Cailan's ambition to wed Celene.

But the evidence available is suggestive that Eamon probably was behind it. He is married to an Orlesian (a very irritating one that needs to die...often..) He has a horse breeder's obsession with bloodlines, and doesn't seem to care who carries on the Therin bloodline. Hell, I could see him suggesting Cailan marry a Broodmother just to save the stupid bloodline.

Naturally, however, I hate Eamon, so it's not hard for me to see him as behind this. And Cailan being Cailan, I don't see the lad as being bright enough to arrange or think up such a possibility on his own. He was supposedly close to Eamon, and despite the occasional tantrum, probably listened to his uncle alot.

Dumb ass Cailan. To be so blatantly stupid and brazen, especially give who his father and father-inlaw are.....

[Dean_the_Young]

Wait. The fact that Eamon married a minor Orlesian noble who gave up her home, and married her for love, is proof that he was telling Cailan fifteen/twenty years later to marry the Empress of Orlais?

[CalJones]

Cailan is a giant himbo and Eamon is a tool, I'll give you both. Were I Anora, I'd have Eamon's head lopped off at the landsmeet right away (I really wish you could present her or Loghain with the RtO correspondance as evidence).

I do wonder if the Eamon poisoning plot is left over from the whole Cailan-Celene subplot that got cut because, in isolation, it does make it seem that Loghain engineered it purely out of skullduggery. Gaider did say that Loghain arranged it so that Eamon wouldn't be able to get in Cailan's corner, but without the Celen subplot, you have to fill in the blanks yourself as to why Eamon would need to back Cailan up in the first place.

[Persephone]

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

DOYOURLABS wrote...

Can you blame him?

Can we blame who for what? Cailan for - unless we're told otherwise - basically selling out his country for a shiny new title? 

[*]

I hated Anora, he probably did too. And a united Ferelden-Orlais would be much better against the darkspawn.

[*]Er no, Cailan loved Anora deeply. As for her not having a child, why do we always blame the woman? None of his many mistresses bore him any child. Had they done that, Eamon would have mentioned it his letter. As for a united Ferelden & Orlais, Ferelden would have become a vassal. Do you see a country uniting with its former occupants as a good idea? I really don't.

[Persephone]

Wedger wrote...

But Cailan did listen to his Master Strategist - look where that got him

He did? Is that why he fought on the front lines against Loghain's warnings? Or why he trusted an order so embedded in its own self-important secrecy that no sane king (And Maric became a great king because of Loghain...)  would trust them? 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

^^^^^^



Bingo.



Cailan/Celene marriage=Very very bad news for Ferelden.

[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

I don't think it was a question of getting a new heir. Cailan got around and Anora knew about it. She even says "Cailain had his women". I think this for Cailan was a power grab. He would get to conquer the Blight and come back as emperor of a good chunk of Thedas. Eamon has an Orelsian wife and didn't even fight in the rebellion he was in the Free Marches looking after Teagan, so he obviously is ignorant to the way Orlais is, and the fact he is advising Cailan on this is meh. Not to mention Empress Celene isn't the most trustworthy person she took Bhelen type of politics(backstabbing her family) to get to her rise to power. Cailan could just be another step in her own rise to power.



As for Cailan loving Anora. I'm not so sure he loved her. He certainly wasn't faithful to her. Anora obviously cared for him, but I think she quit loving him once he became King and she became Queen. I think it opened her eyes to how stupid her husband really is, and we know how Anora values intelligence and savvyness Calian was neither.



Also I find it odd that Eamon has Orlesian books in his castle.

[CalJones]

I think he loved her. They grew up together, played together and would have been very fond of each other. But I don't think he was in love with her.

I imagine they had a similar relationship to Maric and Rowan. They were friends, fond of each other and Maric took her loss pretty hard. But neither was the love of the other's life.

[Dean_the_Young]

?



Isn't part of Eamon's backstory that he did fight against Orlais? Particularly his wife Isolde's codex.

---

Quickly Isolde became smitten with Eamon because he was part of the resistance

---



Certainly at the Landsmeet Loghain says calls out that Eamon once fought with them.

[CalJones]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...
Also I find it odd that Eamon has Orlesian books in his castle.

Not really, he had an Orlesian wife.