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[Jacks Smirking Revenge]

Yeah I was kind of thinking Maric-Rowan type of relationship. Cailan seemed to inherit Maric's promiscuous attitude. I wonder how Alistair didn't get that gene.

Well the contents of the books are what are weird "History of Orlais" "Orlesian Culture", etc. Those are simple questions his Orelsian wife could answer.

I'm pretty sure Eamon was in the Free Marches with Teagan during most of the war.

Eamon presumably spent most of his childhood in Redcliffe. When his father Arl Rendorn Guerrin
joined the rebellion he was sent together with his brother Teagan to
relatives in the north. When their father perished in the battle at West Hill Eamon was 15 years old. It can be assumed that when Meghren the usurper was defeated a few years later, King Maric Theirin recalled Eamon from the north and restored him as the rightful Arl of Redcliffe. He is the maternal uncle of King Cailan and he helped raise Alistair from a distance when his mother died. He fell ill with a mysterious condition that even magic could not treat.


From the wiki; http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Arl_Eamon

Modifié par Jacks Smirking Revenge, 06 septembre 2010 - 01:14 .

[CalJones]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
?

Isn't part of Eamon's backstory that he did fight against Orlais? Particularly his wife Isolde's codex.
---
Quickly Isolde became smitten with Eamon because he was part of the resistance
---

Certainly at the Landsmeet Loghain says calls out that Eamon once fought with them.

There's some inconsistency between the game and the book. In The Stolen Throne, Eamon and Teagan are sent overseas (to the Free Marches I think) after the battle where Rendorn Guerrin is killed. I believe Eamon was supposed to be around 15 then.

Having said that, the war did go on for a time - in fact it took them another three years after the Battle of River Dane to get rid of Meghren. So it's possible Eamon returned after River Dane and fought with them then. (That's the only way I can justify the differences, anyway).

Then again, Eamon looks older in the game than Loghain, when in the books he is clearly younger. I think this sort of thing happens when there are a lot of different writers and designers working on the thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Isn't precedence given to source material (the games) over side material (books) whenever such conflicts come up?

[CalJones]

Now that's a subject for debate.

[Aeowyn]

I do wonder if the writers made Cailan that stupid on purpose. The joke of a King who gets killed at the beginning of the game. In a way I do feel sorry for him, for being so naive and not knowing much about how to actually rule a country. Then you have to wonder who his tutor was? Surely, royalty should receive the finest education in strategy, history and whatnot to prepare them for their future role?

I bet Celene knew his weaknesses and played on them. She promised him a combined force to fight the Blight and probably played on the whole "we will fight the Blight and you will be remembered in history blahblahblah." A child playing amongst the grown-ups.

[MKDAWUSS]

We need pics of Empress Celene to know whether or not Cailan was upgrading.

[Monica21]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Yeah I was kind of thinking Maric-Rowan type of relationship. Cailan seemed to inherit Maric's promiscuous attitude. I wonder how Alistair didn't get that gene.

I wouldn't consider Maric promiscuous. He had a relationship with Katriel before he was married and was pretty intent on marrying her. His only other known relationship outside of marriage was to Fiona. There's no evidence that he cheated on Rowan. Three relationships in one lifetime, two of which are not during marriage hardly qualifies as promiscuous.

[Monica21]

CalJones wrote...
Then again, Eamon looks older in the game than Loghain, when in the books he is clearly younger. I think this sort of thing happens when there are a lot of different writers and designers working on the thing.

I attribute Eamon's appearance as a side-effect of the poison. I mean, he even looks old enough to be Teagan's father, and they're only seven years apart.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

^^^



I love your sig, Monica. LMAO!



Depending on which version of events you believe, Maric also banged one of Eamon's serving wenches as well.

[CalJones]

Well, Leliana's VA is actually French (the others, no, not so much).



Ladywinde did a nice fanart of Celene:







Of course we don't know what she really looks like.

I do think Anora is one of the more beautiful female characters, though, so upgrading is a matter of perspective.

[Monica21]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

^^^

I love your sig, Monica. LMAO!

Depending on which version of events you believe, Maric also banged one of Eamon's serving wenches as well.

Haha, thanks.

And I don't believe that version, considering Fiona wanted her child *cough Alistair cough* to be raised as a human and believe that his mother was human.

[MKDAWUSS]

Monica21 wrote...

CalJones wrote...
Then again, Eamon looks older in the game than Loghain, when in the books he is clearly younger. I think this sort of thing happens when there are a lot of different writers and designers working on the thing.

I attribute Eamon's appearance as a side-effect of the poison. I mean, he even looks old enough to be Teagan's father, and they're only seven years apart.

I guess that's one explanation - like you said, he looked old enough to be Teagan and Isolde's father, and Connor's grandfather. I had to mod him to look a bit more age appropriate (mostly it was just a change of hair color). ... but then again, he wasn't poisoned for that long, was he?

[CalJones]

Removing the beard would take ten years off him, actually. Beards are ageing, especially huge ones like that.

[Monica21]

MKDAWUSS wrote...
I guess that's one explanation - like you said, he looked old enough to be Teagan and Isolde's father, and Connor's grandfather. I had to mod him to look a bit more age appropriate (mostly it was just a change of hair color). ... but then again, he wasn't poisoned for that long, was he?

Depending on when you do Redcliffe it can be almost a year. Even so, he was in the Fade the entire time having what looked to be an incredibly stressful dream about not being able to find Connor. Or maybe premature grey is a family thing and it missed Teagan.

CalJones wrote...

Removing the beard would take ten years off him, actually. Beards are ageing, especially huge ones like that.

Even a darker beard would make him look younger. But yes, beards as a whole age men terribly.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

No, but does it matter? 

If you are an ardent consequentialist, then no. If you take intentions, logic, context, circumstances all into accout, then yes it matters to me when I judge the character.

Addai67 wrote...
Really, I would back off on your triumphalism over this.  As I said earlier, it doesn't absolve Loghain in any way of treason. 

We've already had this discussion before. I never thought he was a traitor. 

[Sarah1281]

CalJones wrote...
I guess Loghain can sense Orlesian plots the way wardens can sense darkspawn.

I really think you might be onto something here.

[MKDAWUSS]

CalJones wrote...

Removing the beard would take ten years off him, actually. Beards are ageing, especially huge ones like that.

I modded his hair to match Teagan's (dark blonde/light brown color) and then he actually looks age appropriate, even with the beard.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain couldn't pull Cailan's strings, Why assume the Empress could?

Um...because Loghain totally could and did? According to Anora, Ostagar is the first time Cailan wouldn't listen to Loghain and I'm inclined to believe her.

But the evidence available is suggestive that Eamon probably was behind it. He is married to an Orlesian (a very irritating one that needs to die...often..) He has a horse breeder's obsession with bloodlines, and doesn't seem to care who carries on the Therin bloodline. Hell, I could see him suggesting Cailan marry a Broodmother just to save the stupid bloodline.

And when you ask him what's so important about the bloodline he tells you that the bloodline was the rallying symbol for the resistance and that he doesn't want to lose it when their is still a surviving son of the bloodline a mere generation after they saved it from the Orlesians. I think he loved ONE Orlesian. Isolde. She gave up her culture for him and moved to Ferelden. That hardly equates to a love of Orlais and he does seem to have at least some resentment towards the Empire if his talk about how horrible it was to watch poncy little Orlesian noblemen rule over your own land was. Plus, if we go by the 'Eamon wants more power' argument then how the hell does he think he'd get that by lessening Cailan's power and increasing Celene's? It would definitely go against his own interests.

[Raiil]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
There stands the remote chance that Cailan is actually not a complete frigging moron and was hammering out some sort of clause/plan wherein the countries would technically remain divided (think Phillip and Mary of England- their kingdoms did not merge) and that the hope is that there would be several children so their would be an heir for each kingdom.


Somehow, I doubt that.

Philip was still a prince when he got married though, it was arranged by his faher. And technically, Philip became the king of England and co-ruled with Mary. And that move was very unpopular and was seen as an attempt to make England dependant on Spain and as a way to restore catholicism. Mary also died too soon, and Philip no longer considered as king, for Spain to be able to effectively dominate England. But the fear was there and it was legitimate.  

I believe Phillip became King of Naples (and received the right to heirship to Jerusalem) right before he married Mary, as his father gave him those rights. Regardless, though, England did not become part of the HRE, or a city-state of Spain, or anything like that. It was separate from Phillip's landrights and considered to be their own country. If Cailan had any grey matter spinning in that skull of his, this is what he would have enforced in the marriage treaty- that while Celene is Queen Consort of Ferelden, Cailan is King Regnant, and she is therefore Not Allowed to dick around with Ferelden under any circumstances- no changing laws, no calling it part of Orlais, no raiding it's finances.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Valentia X wrote...
If Cailan had any grey matter spinning in that skull of his, this is what he would have enforced in the marriage treaty- that while Celene is Queen Consort of Ferelden, Cailan is King Regnant, and she is therefore Not Allowed to dick around with Ferelden under any circumstances- no changing laws, no calling it part of Orlais, no raiding it's finances.

Which is highly unlikely as he barely ruled Ferelden in the first place, Anora did most of the job for him.

[Monica21]

Valentia X wrote...
I believe Phillip became King of Naples (and received the right to heirship to Jerusalem) right before he married Mary, as his father gave him those rights. Regardless, though, England did not become part of the HRE, or a city-state of Spain, or anything like that. It was separate from Phillip's landrights and considered to be their own country. If Cailan had any grey matter spinning in that skull of his, this is what he would have enforced in the marriage treaty- that while Celene is Queen Consort of Ferelden, Cailan is King Regnant, and she is therefore Not Allowed to dick around with Ferelden under any circumstances- no changing laws, no calling it part of Orlais, no raiding it's finances.

Even if he did all that, there is still the problem of The Heir, if he manages to produce one. An heir to two thrones, which will absorb Ferelden. Again, far less messy than an invasion.

[Dean_the_Young]

It occurs to me that people might want to think of a paradigm shift in regards to Cailan's wisdom on the matter. For everyone's insistence that marrying Celene is such an idiotic and horrible move in respect to how it effects Ferelden... that really only applies if you assume Ferelden's position vis-a-vis Orlais is inherently a good thing.



Which, given the multitude of origins, is hardly assured. The Dwarves don't really care, as it really doesn't affect them. The Dalish go on regardless, and aslong as the Orlesians and Fereldens distract eachother they leave the Dalish alone. A city elf might well not care: besides the excesses of the Chevaliers, their life sucks anyway. Even a human noble isn't necessarily anti-Orlesian at this point in time.



And that's of Ferelden natives you can play. To the Orlesians? To people who would benefit from a such a wedding? To even the Fereldens who don't fear the Orlesians instinctively, if closer times come on their terms and not the from the point of a sword?



Perhaps it isn't wise to condemn Cailan as a fool for what such a marriage would do to Ferelden's long-term independence (not even it's well-being, mind you: it's independence). The national identity and distinction of Ferelden is not, in and of itself, an automatic virtue.



And as for the point that Cailan wouldn't wield real power to rule in a union with Orlais... well, he doesn't exactly wield the real power now, does he? 'Everyone' knows Anora pulls the strings. Replacing her with someone who actually can offer him more toys and honor to play with...



Perhaps Cailan isn't such an idiot, but merely a man with different priorities.

[Raiil]

Monica21 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
I believe Phillip became King of Naples (and received the right to heirship to Jerusalem) right before he married Mary, as his father gave him those rights. Regardless, though, England did not become part of the HRE, or a city-state of Spain, or anything like that. It was separate from Phillip's landrights and considered to be their own country. If Cailan had any grey matter spinning in that skull of his, this is what he would have enforced in the marriage treaty- that while Celene is Queen Consort of Ferelden, Cailan is King Regnant, and she is therefore Not Allowed to dick around with Ferelden under any circumstances- no changing laws, no calling it part of Orlais, no raiding it's finances.

Even if he did all that, there is still the problem of The Heir, if he manages to produce one. An heir to two thrones, which will absorb Ferelden. Again, far less messy than an invasion.

Well, going back to 'if Cailan only had a brain', the possibilities of two heirs comes to mind, each ruling one separately. You can also have one king ruling multiple kingdoms: think Frederick Augustus I, aka Augustus II the Strong, Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, and Grand Duke of Lithuania. I'm not arguing for it to be the best case scenario- I believe Cailan's best move would have been to marry either lower nobility in Ferelden or royalty outside of Orlais- but it could, in theory, gone alone those lines. Whether it would have it up for debate and seems unlikely, but there you have it.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It occurs to me that people might want to think of a paradigm shift in regards to Cailan's wisdom on the matter. For everyone's insistence that marrying Celene is such an idiotic and horrible move in respect to how it effects Ferelden... that really only applies if you assume Ferelden's position vis-a-vis Orlais is inherently a good thing.

Which, given the multitude of origins, is hardly assured. The Dwarves don't really care, as it really doesn't affect them. The Dalish go on regardless, and aslong as the Orlesians and Fereldens distract eachother they leave the Dalish alone. A city elf might well not care: besides the excesses of the Chevaliers, their life sucks anyway. Even a human noble isn't necessarily anti-Orlesian at this point in time.

And that's of Ferelden natives you can play. To the Orlesians? To people who would benefit from a such a wedding? To even the Fereldens who don't fear the Orlesians instinctively, if closer times come on their terms and not the from the point of a sword?

Perhaps it isn't wise to condemn Cailan as a fool for what such a marriage would do to Ferelden's long-term independence (not even it's well-being, mind you: it's independence). The national identity and distinction of Ferelden is not, in and of itself, an automatic virtue.

And as for the point that Cailan wouldn't wield real power to rule in a union with Orlais... well, he doesn't exactly wield the real power now, does he? 'Everyone' knows Anora pulls the strings. Replacing her with someone who actually can offer him more toys and honor to play with...

Perhaps Cailan isn't such an idiot, but merely a man with different priorities.

While a paradigm shift isn't an inherently bad idea, I've grown to be rather patriotic (for lack of a better word) towards Ferelden.

You're right that a mage is still controlled by the Circle, and the dwarves and Dalish likely don't care who rules them, but the Night Elves fought with Loghain during the rebellion. I'd have to go back to the books to see if there's a reason why, but they presumably thought they'd have it better under Ferelden rule. Humans however, have no excuse for such a short memory, especially humans who fought in the rebellion. There's no reason why a commoner, freeholder, or noble would desire an Orlesian consort.

If Cailan thought about it, and I doubt he had, he's simply looking for power for himself and not for his country. That's not a virtue I'd like to see in a ruler.