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[Monica21]

Valentia X wrote...
Well, going back to 'if Cailan only had a brain', the possibilities of two heirs comes to mind, each ruling one separately. You can also have one king ruling multiple kingdoms: think Frederick Augustus I, aka Augustus II the Strong, Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, and Grand Duke of Lithuania. I'm not arguing for it to be the best case scenario- I believe Cailan's best move would have been to marry either lower nobility in Ferelden or royalty outside of Orlais- but it could, in theory, gone alone those lines. Whether it would have it up for debate and seems unlikely, but there you have it.

I'm of the opinion that Celene wouldn't let Cailan live long enough to produce two heirs. One heir is more than enough to rule Ferelden and Orlais.

[Raiil]

MariSkep wrote...

@Dean_the_Young, that's actually what I was thinking of when I first played Return to Ostagar (if I'm reading you right). Fereldan doesn't seem a very powerful nation when we're introduced to it and it's largely lucked out up to this point that the neighboring powers have had their attention drawn elsewhere. What's to happen if Tevinter settles it's fights with the Qunari? Or if the Qunari manage to reach Fereldan soil? What exactly would Fereldan do? I don't get the impression they have the power to win such a war on their own.

While a lot of outsiders don't seem to hold Ferelden in high esteem- a notable exception being, actually, Empress Celene- that doesn't mean that they're powerless. If you want to add into the fact that they've recently beaten off a Blight pretty much on the steam of two natives, a few friends, and a lot of guts, and that the nation was very recently unified in the fight against the Archdemon, it makes for a hard place to conquer. If Orlais were to show up at Ferelden's doorstep, the ruler would probably be able to call on a lot of allies to keep the rifraff away.

[MKDAWUSS]

Monica21 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Well, going back to 'if Cailan only had a brain', the possibilities of two heirs comes to mind, each ruling one separately. You can also have one king ruling multiple kingdoms: think Frederick Augustus I, aka Augustus II the Strong, Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, and Grand Duke of Lithuania. I'm not arguing for it to be the best case scenario- I believe Cailan's best move would have been to marry either lower nobility in Ferelden or royalty outside of Orlais- but it could, in theory, gone alone those lines. Whether it would have it up for debate and seems unlikely, but there you have it.

I'm of the opinion that Celene wouldn't let Cailan live long enough to produce two heirs. One heir is more than enough to rule Ferelden and Orlais.

Multiple heirs = extra insurance policy

[Raiil]

Monica21 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Well, going back to 'if Cailan only had a brain', the possibilities of two heirs comes to mind, each ruling one separately. You can also have one king ruling multiple kingdoms: think Frederick Augustus I, aka Augustus II the Strong, Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, and Grand Duke of Lithuania. I'm not arguing for it to be the best case scenario- I believe Cailan's best move would have been to marry either lower nobility in Ferelden or royalty outside of Orlais- but it could, in theory, gone alone those lines. Whether it would have it up for debate and seems unlikely, but there you have it.

I'm of the opinion that Celene wouldn't let Cailan live long enough to produce two heirs. One heir is more than enough to rule Ferelden and Orlais.

That's assuming that Celene has shown herself to be ruthless enough to commit such an act and think she can get away with it. We know very little about her. She may not be eager for war or even wanting to conquer- it does happen from time to time.  But truly, we know so little of her that while it may be very possible she would, it's just as likely that she wouldn't. Ferelden shook off Orlais once and there's nothing to say they would put up with those shenanigans again.

[Dean_the_Young]

Monica21 wrote...
While a paradigm shift isn't an inherently bad idea, I've grown to be rather patriotic (for lack of a better word) towards Ferelden.

Of course, but that begs the question of why is should matter in judging Cailan. Cailan doing things against the patriotic interests of one nation for his own interest doesn't mean he's stupid.

You're right that a mage is still controlled by the Circle, and the dwarves and Dalish likely don't care who rules them, but the Night Elves fought with Loghain during the rebellion. I'd have to go back to the books to see if there's a reason why, but they presumably thought they'd have it better under Ferelden rule. Humans however, have no excuse for such a short memory, especially humans who fought in the rebellion. There's no reason why a commoner, freeholder, or noble would desire an Orlesian consort.

Unless, of course, there were people who weren't hurt by the Orlesians. And there are elves in the Orlesian armies as well, so what one group of them does does not dictate the entire race.

More importantly, a marriage to Celene isn't a return to the occupation. Orlesian nobles aren't going to swarm over and supplant Ferlden nobles. Orlesian troops aren't going to march over either, to make way so that the Chevaliers can rape whoever they please. Orlais already knows that doesn't work. Ferelden nobles will still rule over Fereldens, and to keep the marriage union intact (and to keep Cailan on the Ferelden throne) they can't do whatever atrocities of the occupiers you envision, as it wouldn't have a point and would lose their influence. Plenty of unions between states have collapsed because of such attempts.

Eventually, one day many years down the road, Orlesian troops might come over... but not as conquering occupiers. That would be relying on them to be stupid self-sabotaging malevolent idiots.

If Cailan thought about it, and I doubt he had, he's simply looking for power for himself and not for his country. That's not a virtue I'd like to see in a ruler.

Perhaps, but how does it make him more of a fool?

[SarEnyaDor]

Perhaps, and maybe this is just a guess, maybe Cailan liked the Empress? It wouldn't be the first time a Therin male was lead to bad places by his desires *cough Katriel cough*

[Dean_the_Young]

Valentia X wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

@Dean_the_Young, that's actually what I was thinking of when I first played Return to Ostagar (if I'm reading you right). Fereldan doesn't seem a very powerful nation when we're introduced to it and it's largely lucked out up to this point that the neighboring powers have had their attention drawn elsewhere. What's to happen if Tevinter settles it's fights with the Qunari? Or if the Qunari manage to reach Fereldan soil? What exactly would Fereldan do? I don't get the impression they have the power to win such a war on their own.

While a lot of outsiders don't seem to hold Ferelden in high esteem- a notable exception being, actually, Empress Celene- that doesn't mean that they're powerless. If you want to add into the fact that they've recently beaten off a Blight pretty much on the steam of two natives, a few friends, and a lot of guts, and that the nation was very recently unified in the fight against the Archdemon, it makes for a hard place to conquer. If Orlais were to show up at Ferelden's doorstep, the ruler would probably be able to call on a lot of allies to keep the rifraff away.

I don't know if Celene really admires Ferelden as a whole, as opposed to Anora in particular: she does, after all, call Anora a rose amongst brambles.

I do agree that Ferelden is surprisingly tough. But it isn't powerful, in the traditional sense. It exists because no one else is strong enough. In the future, however...

well, depending on the quests of Origins, it could turn into a major military powerhouse in its own right.

[Monica21]

Valentia X wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Valentia X wrote...
Well, going back to 'if Cailan only had a brain', the possibilities of two heirs comes to mind, each ruling one separately. You can also have one king ruling multiple kingdoms: think Frederick Augustus I, aka Augustus II the Strong, Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, and Grand Duke of Lithuania. I'm not arguing for it to be the best case scenario- I believe Cailan's best move would have been to marry either lower nobility in Ferelden or royalty outside of Orlais- but it could, in theory, gone alone those lines. Whether it would have it up for debate and seems unlikely, but there you have it.

I'm of the opinion that Celene wouldn't let Cailan live long enough to produce two heirs. One heir is more than enough to rule Ferelden and Orlais.

That's assuming that Celene has shown herself to be ruthless enough to commit such an act and think she can get away with it. We know very little about her. She may not be eager for war or even wanting to conquer- it does happen from time to time.  But truly, we know so little of her that while it may be very possible she would, it's just as likely that she wouldn't. Ferelden shook off Orlais once and there's nothing to say they would put up with those shenanigans again.

Well, she was fifth in line for the throne and still managed to become Empress. From the wiki: Within her country, some claim that, at the age of seventeen, she organized her uncle's assassination and then outmanoeuvred three older cousins in a contest for the throne, avoiding death twice.


Ferelden had a very difficult time shaking off Orlais, considering they were occupied for 70 years. And having a legitimate heir to the Ferelden throne is hardly shenanigans. It would require another rebellion.

Modifié par Monica21, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
More importantly, a marriage to Celene isn't a return to the occupation. Orlesian nobles aren't going to swarm over and supplant Ferlden nobles. Orlesian troops aren't going to march over either, to make way so that the Chevaliers can rape whoever they please. Orlais already knows that doesn't work. Ferelden nobles will still rule over Fereldens, and to keep the marriage union intact (and to keep Cailan on the Ferelden throne) they can't do whatever atrocities of the occupiers you envision, as it wouldn't have a point and would lose their influence. Plenty of unions between states have collapsed because of such attempts.

Perhaps not a blunt occupation, but an absorbption. No weak states merges with a stronger one and retains its independence and sovereignity or be on a equal footing.

Orlais is the major power in Thedas, rich, more populated, relatively highly civilised, has immense cultural influence (via the chantry). Ferelden on the otherhand is considered a backwater, poor, barely civilised. Via commerce and culture, Orlais would absorb Ferelden with ease without needing to invade. And most nobles accepted Orlesian occupation before, I am sure a lot more will be willing to participate in this less bloody merger if given incentives.
Add the fact that the heirs to the throne will most likely be raised in Orlais and be for al intents and purposes Orlesian.

So while it might not be a military invasion, it's still an invasion on Ferelden's sovereignity and independence that will get accelerated over the years. If you consider Ferleden's independence irrelevent, then yea sure you couldn't care less. But it is emphasised that Fereldans are very independent and there was no way this would have gone smoothly.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[MKDAWUSS]

If Cailan would fall for Leliana, I'm sure he'd easily fall for Celene.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, but that begs the question of why is should matter in judging Cailan. Cailan doing things against the patriotic interests of one nation for his own interest doesn't mean he's stupid.

No, it just makes him a bad King.

Unless, of course, there were people who weren't hurt by the Orlesians. And there are elves in the Orlesian armies as well, so what one group of them does does not dictate the entire race.

The Night Elves were Ferelden City Elves. Elves in the army doesn't mean much. I assume Orlais has humans in their army. You'll have to be more specific, because I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

More importantly, a marriage to Celene isn't a return to the occupation. Orlesian nobles aren't going to swarm over and supplant Ferlden nobles. Orlesian troops aren't going to march over either, to make way so that the Chevaliers can rape whoever they please. Orlais already knows that doesn't work. Ferelden nobles will still rule over Fereldens, and to keep the marriage union intact (and to keep Cailan on the Ferelden throne) they can't do whatever atrocities of the occupiers you envision, as it wouldn't have a point and would lose their influence. Plenty of unions between states have collapsed because of such attempts.

I see it as worse than the occupation. Celene knows that another invasion won't work, so why not try a political marriage where a legitimate heir gives Orlais the right to take over Ferelden? And the only atrocity I've envisioned is the loss of Ferelden independence, which is more than enough to be against the union.

[Raiil]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

MariSkep wrote...

@Dean_the_Young, that's actually what I was thinking of when I first played Return to Ostagar (if I'm reading you right). Fereldan doesn't seem a very powerful nation when we're introduced to it and it's largely lucked out up to this point that the neighboring powers have had their attention drawn elsewhere. What's to happen if Tevinter settles it's fights with the Qunari? Or if the Qunari manage to reach Fereldan soil? What exactly would Fereldan do? I don't get the impression they have the power to win such a war on their own.

While a lot of outsiders don't seem to hold Ferelden in high esteem- a notable exception being, actually, Empress Celene- that doesn't mean that they're powerless. If you want to add into the fact that they've recently beaten off a Blight pretty much on the steam of two natives, a few friends, and a lot of guts, and that the nation was very recently unified in the fight against the Archdemon, it makes for a hard place to conquer. If Orlais were to show up at Ferelden's doorstep, the ruler would probably be able to call on a lot of allies to keep the rifraff away.

I don't know if Celene really admires Ferelden as a whole, as opposed to Anora in particular: she does, after all, call Anora a rose amongst brambles.

I do agree that Ferelden is surprisingly tough. But it isn't powerful, in the traditional sense. It exists because no one else is strong enough. In the future, however...

well, depending on the quests of Origins, it could turn into a major military powerhouse in its own right.

"The Fereldans are a puzzle. As a people, they are one bad day away from reverting to barbarism. They repelled invasions from Tevinter during the height of the Imperium with nothing but dogs and their own obstinate disposition. They are the coarse, willful, dirty, disorganized people who somehow gave rise to our prophet, ushered in an era of enlightenment, and toppled the greatest empire in history.""One can assume a few things in dealing with these people: First, they value loyalty above all things, beyond wealth, power, and reason. Second, although few things in their country are remarkable to outsiders, they are extremely proud of their accomplishments. Third, if one insults their dogs, they are likely to declare war. And finally, one has underestimated Fereldans when he thinks he has come to understand them."-- Empress Celene I of Orlais

Seems fairly admiring, if in a puzzled way, to me. It also shows a great deal of power, if Ferelden threw off the Magisters at the height of their power.

Modifié par Valentia X, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[Monica21]

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, but that begs the question of why is should matter in judging Cailan. Cailan doing things against the patriotic interests of one nation for his own interest doesn't mean he's stupid.

No, it just makes him a bad King.

Not really. What a King is for is pretty much up to who's doing the talking. Some think a king should lead from the frontlines, serving as an iconic figure for his people to admire and hope to emulate. Personally I think it's just a nice title.

I think a King should do whatever he can to strengthen his nation and preserve its independence. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to, I guess.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Perhaps not a blunt occupation, but an absorbption. No weak states merges with a stronger one and retains its independence and sovereignity or be on a equal footing.

Sure.

Now why is Ferelden's independence a universal good thing?

Orlais is the major power in Thedas, rich, more populated, relatively highly civilised, has immense cultural influence (via the chantry). Ferelden on the otherhand is considered a backwater, poor, barely civilised. Via commerce and culture, Orlais would absorb Ferelden with ease without needing to invade. And most nobles accepted Orlesian occupation before, I am sure a lot more will be willing to participate in this less bloody merger if given incentives.
Add the fact that the heirs to the throne will most likely be raised in Orlais and be for al intents and purposes Orlesian.

Could be, but not necessarily. A wise Empress who really wanted to keep Ferelden in the fold would be smart enough to know that Ferelden must be included, not just attached. Otherwise, Orlais' handle on Ferelden (the King) may just be replaced by the Landsmeet. Keeping Ferelden placated requires compromises to the Ferelden political traditions and culture.

So while it might not be a military invasion, it's still an invasion on Ferelden's sovereignity and independence that will get accelerated over the years. If you consider Ferleden's independence irrelevent, then yea sure you couldn't care less. But it is emphasised that Fereldans are very independent and there was no way this would have gone smoothly.

It could have, depending on how it was handled. Anyone who bets anything on the Fereldens is taking risks: Loghain is about as all-Ferelden as you can get, and got a Civil War before proof or word of Cailan's death got around. You can persuade Ferelden people to accept things, but you can't force them. Which is why emphasis would be taken on persuading them. For some, at least, that increased wealth and security from a peaceable relation with Orlais isn't in and of itself abhorent.

But, of course, this is all irrelevant to how Cailan's priorities (or lack of prioritizing Ferelden national identity) makes him a fool.

[BlueMew]

Apparently I missed something? I never saw anything written down that proves Cailan was about to marry Celene?

[CalJones]

Yeah, there was a livecast with David Gaider where someone asked if he really was planning to Divorce Anora and marry Celene, and he said yes, there was originally a plan to put the plot into Origins, with Celene visiting Denerim and Loghain finding out. But it was cut due to time constraints.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

BlueMew wrote...

Apparently I missed something? I never saw anything written down that proves Cailan was about to marry Celene?

Gaider confirmed it in an interview. Cailan did indeed intend to marry Celene and divorce Anora.

[Monica21]

MariSkep wrote...
Borders aren't that relevant. The people inside them are what matters. If you can assure their well being or some net gain in the standard of living than I don't see what the issue would be.

Of course I don't think that' what Orlais hope to gain but, fighting just to preserve a line in the sand seems so meaningless to me.

They're not? I confess to being a bit confounded by this, but perhaps that's because I'm American. If Canada decided to invade but promised everyone free health care and higher wages, I'd still be against it. Hell, I'm still kind of angry about them burning the White House.