501 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Could be, but not necessarily. A wise Empress who really wanted to keep Ferelden in the fold would be smart enough to know that Ferelden must be included, not just attached. Otherwise, Orlais' handle on Ferelden (the King) may just be replaced by the Landsmeet. Keeping Ferelden placated requires compromises to the Ferelden political traditions and culture.

And I think, by that point, Orlais could easily have insinuated itself far enough into Ferelden politics to disband the Landsmeet. Assuming that Orlais is going to let Ferelden continue to play by its own rules is a bit naive.

[BlueMew]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Apparently I missed something? I never saw anything written down that proves Cailan was about to marry Celene?

Gaider confirmed it in an interview. Cailan did indeed intend to marry Celene and divorce Anora.

Um... but if it was cut due to time constraints, does it still apply? Not that it matters much, of course, since Cailan got darkspawned anyway, but if people found out beforehand it surely would have strengthened Loghain's position.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Monica21 wrote...

MariSkep wrote...
Borders aren't that relevant. The people inside them are what matters. If you can assure their well being or some net gain in the standard of living than I don't see what the issue would be.

Of course I don't think that' what Orlais hope to gain but, fighting just to preserve a line in the sand seems so meaningless to me.

They're not? I confess to being a bit confounded by this, but perhaps that's because I'm American. If Canada decided to invade but promised everyone free health care and higher wages, I'd still be against it. Hell, I'm still kind of angry about them burning the White House.

I'm still angry that they have yet to apologize for both Brian Adams and Celine Dion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Now why is Ferelden's independence a universal good thing?

Where did I say it's a universal good thing?
But for a king to sell his own nation that his father freed, I think that's universally seen as treason of the highest order.

Could be, but not necessarily. A wise Empress who really wanted to keep Ferelden in the fold would be smart enough to know that Ferelden must be included, not just attached. Otherwise, Orlais' handle on Ferelden (the King) may just be replaced by the Landsmeet. Keeping Ferelden placated requires compromises to the Ferelden political traditions and culture.

That would be the case if they are equal in power or even close to that. Regardless of terms, the stronger nation will devour the weaker one economically and culturally given time.

The Mughal Empire expanded this way and while those who merged with them were given a lot of rights, no one doubts that they had been absorbed and became subordinated.

 For some, at least, that increased wealth and security from a peaceable relation with Orlais isn't in and of itself abhorent.

To those who care nothing about their nation, sure. To equally bet on Fereldans not minding the merger is also a risk.

Them being slowly absorbed is in fact worse than full scale invasion. 

 

But, of course, this is all irrelevant to how Cailan's priorities (or lack of prioritizing Ferelden national identity) makes him a fool.

It makes him a foolish idiotic *king*. Proper kings don't sell their nations.   

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

BlueMew wrote...

Um... but if it was cut due to time constraints, does it still apply? Not that it matters much, of course, since Cailan got darkspawned anyway, but if people found out beforehand it surely would have strengthened Loghain's position.

It still applies because there is mention of it in Return to Ostagar, via Cailan's secret chest of letters between him and his Orlesian ho'. The main plot surrounding it was cut, but the fact that he was doing it  is still part of the game, due to RTO. Just not as major a bearing or importance to the final plot.

[Sarah1281]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

If Cailan would fall for Leliana, I'm sure he'd easily fall for Celene.

Um, what? Alistair is the one who might possibly fall ofr Leliana in the AU DLC DSC that people like to pretend didn't happen and makes little logical sense. What does this have to do with Cailan? Besides, for all we know the only thing the two women have in common is their accent.

[Monica21]

Sarah1281 wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

If Cailan would fall for Leliana, I'm sure he'd easily fall for Celene.

Um, what? Alistair is the one who might possibly fall ofr Leliana in the AU DLC DSC that people like to pretend didn't happen and makes little logical sense. What does this have to do with Cailan? Besides, for all we know the only thing the two women have in common is their accent.

I'm embarrassed to admit that this just made me snort laugh.

[Dean_the_Young]

MariSkep wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

well, depending on the quests of Origins, it could turn into a major military powerhouse in its own right.

What do you mean?

The Orlesian Circle of Mai, being closest to the Chantry, is portrayed in Codex as being one of the most restricted Circles there are, while the Qunari have no Circle to speak of.. In terms of magical advancement, keeping the relatively free Ferelden Circle alive and free (by saving the mages, and even better by liberating them as a mage) offers Ferelden at least a major magical resource like the Tevinter in case when the Qunari or more restricted Orlesian mages come.

For the Dwarves, keeping the Anvil allows for the recreation of more Golems. While of course Orzamaar benefits first and foremost, their surface partner of Ferelden is an obvious second in getting more when Branka doesn't just stick to giving it to the dwarves. While the future of the Anvil is up in the air, the potential for it to be a major aid to Ferelden's own military ability remains possible.

But, most importantly, the alliance with the werewolves is damning, if it could be brought together and the Werewolves self-control at last achieved. A werewolf, after all, is more than just one fighter: it is a force multiplier. Those who survive the werewolves can become werewolves themselves, either lost to the curse or who come to the forces of the Lady to regain their control. Prior allegiance doesn't matter: consider the Dalish, who were more than wiped out. Some of the tribe were turned as well. Now imagine if the werewolves were again an integrated part of Ferelden's forces in its time of need, turning the enemies own forces against them. And then those forces could turn other forces, becoming a double-win mechanic as the more they win, the more they can win again.

True, the initial alliance with the werewolves does not last long. But I don't see it as beyond resumption, or repair, in the future either. I wouldn't give the Brescillian forest to the Dalish as a Human Noble, but I'd happily trade the entire region to the Weres in return for a permanent alliance. (And, also, for the interesting magical-research applications: the werewolves are the result of a spirit being bound, and the curse could have similarities with fade spirit possessions and abominations. I'd be very interested in studying how the Weres calm themselves, and how that could be applied to others.

[BlueMew]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

Um... but if it was cut due to time constraints, does it still apply? Not that it matters much, of course, since Cailan got darkspawned anyway, but if people found out beforehand it surely would have strengthened Loghain's position.

It still applies because there is mention of it in Return to Ostagar, via Cailan's secret chest of letters between him and his Orlesian ho'. The main plot surrounding it was cut, but the fact that he was doing it  is still part of the game, due to RTO. Just not as major a bearing or importance to the final plot.

Well, there was not exactly a marriage proposal in that.  If there was, and people knew about it, then it would have been bloody impossible to sway the Landsmeet.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

No, but does it matter? 

If you are an ardent consequentialist, then no. If you take intentions, logic, context, circumstances all into accout, then yes it matters to me when I judge the character.

I'm not a consequ... whatever.  I look at Loghain plotting and stewing and see disaster every bit as much as a naive Cailan.  To borrow a phrase from one of Maria13's stories, better a fool than a backstabber, at least with a fool you see him coming.

Addai67 wrote...
Really, I would back off on your triumphalism over this.  As I said earlier, it doesn't absolve Loghain in any way of treason. 

We've already had this discussion before. I never thought he was a traitor. 

Plotting against your king in secret, not to mention poisoning your political rivals, is treaon.  Ironically it is also a very Orlesian thing to do.  Unless we find out that Cailan was doing the same, I'm only thinking these latest revelations level the playing field a little and don't absolve Loghain one bit.  Cailan wanted to make an official alliance, Loghain wanted a society that was much like it was under the occupation, just with him running things.

Modifié par Addai67, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I guess Loghain can sense Orlesian plots the way wardens can sense darkspawn.

Now that warrants a TIM quote.

[i]"The simple-minded focused on the holes in the story; they needed an explanation for every loose end. The intelligent filled in the holes themselves, using logic, reason, and creative thinking." - The Illusive Man, Mass Effect: Retribution.

Oh, please.  Don't break something lugging that arrogance around with you.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm not a consequ... whatever.  I look at Loghain plotting and stewing and see disaster every bit as much as a naive Cailan.  To borrow a phrase from one of Maria13's stories, better a fool than a backstabber, at least with a fool you see him coming.

Better for your sake yes. But a plotter who has reasons to do what he does and a complete fool who just wants glory? I think I know who the better man would be,  regardless of whether he is an enemy or not.

Plotting against your king in secret, not to mention poisoning your political rivals, is treaon. 

Yea, here we go again.
Regardless of whether he betrayed his king or not (I still say he should have killed him before. But Cailan's death was verily his own doing and Loghain told him time and time again to not be ojn the frontlines). I do not see him as betraying his nation, that was Cailan.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:48 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

BlueMew wrote...


Well, there was not exactly a marriage proposal in that.  If there was, and people knew about it, then it would have been bloody impossible to sway the Landsmeet.

No. And it has no bearing on the Landsmeet in the final product, as is the case with most DLC. But it existed, the letters, and the suggestions they carried were confirmed by Gaider. So lorewise, at least, it's been established.

I doubt it would have been impossible to sway the Landsmeet. Many nobles sided with Orlais. They go where they greatest benefits to themselves are.

[KnightofPhoenix]

MariSkep wrote...

Them being slowly absorbed is in fact worse than full scale invasion.

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because at least you know who the enemy is and are given the chance to fight for your freedom and independence. If you don't care about those values, then of course it won't be better for you.

MariSkep wrote...
How is he 'selling' Fereldan? I'm not following. It seems no different than any other political arrangement. True he may be getting the short end of the stick but it doesn't seem like treason.

Because he is giving up his nation's independence and sovereignity, whether in the short run or long run. That's selling his nation.

[Costin_Razvan]

Oh, please. Don't break something lugging that arrogance around with you.

Speaks the Queen of Ignorance and Naivety. I can't believe people are that short sighted as to STILL claim that what Loghain was doing is WORSE then what Cailan was planning, or some claiming that Cailan marrying Celene was a smart move.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because the war would end at some point and the embittered Fereldens would retain their national identity rather than having an alliance where everything that makes Ferelden unique would fade away over time in the face of Orlesian alternatives.

[Monica21]

MariSkep wrote...

Them being slowly absorbed is in fact worse than full scale invasion.

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because at the very least you have the chance to push them back at the border. A half-Orlesian Theirin as heir to the Ferelden throne would require yet another rebellion. Rebellions can be quite tiring.

It makes him a foolish idiotic *king*. Proper kings don't sell their nations.

How is he 'selling' Fereldan? I'm not following. It seems no different than any other political arrangement. True he may be getting the short end of the stick but it doesn't seem like treason.

He's handing his country over to the most powerful empire in Thedas by virtue of marriage. The Ferelden nobles didn't like their own Hero of River Dane declaring himself regent. What do you think they'd say about the Orlesian Empress as Queen Consort, especially knowing how easily Cailan let Anora make the decisions?

[devilsoul]

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


Where did I say it's a universal good thing?
But for a king to sell his own nation that his father freed, I think that's universally seen as treason of the highest order.

Universal? You didn't. Your position, however, is based on the assumption.

And no, it isn't universally seen as that. The interests of the people are not the same as the nation, as they aren't equivalents.

That would be the case if they are equal in power or even close to that. Regardless of terms, the stronger nation will devour the weaker one economically and culturally given time.

Given time, it isn't devouring. It's assimilation, which is hardly a horrible thing. Nor is it a guaranteed thing: China is the prototypical nation in which it was regularly invaded and conquered by outsiders only to keep it's own culture.

The Mughal Empire expanded this way and while those who merged with them were given a lot of rights, no one doubts that they had been absorbed and became subordinated.

The Mongols were also turned culturally Chinese, and then assimilated into the cultures they conquered.

To those who care nothing about their nation, sure. To equally bet on Fereldans not minding the merger is also a risk.

To those who care about their nation as well. Plenty of nations strike alliances and have even struck mergers in moves that decrease their own national profile and privelages because of what they can gain in return. They just see it a different way, with a different perspective, and different priorities. Most of what we consider the Roman Empire, for example, was made up of regions and small powers who thought themselves not as Roman subjects but Roman allies, and stayed allied because of what they could and could not do.

If Fereldan doesn't mind a marriage merger of sorts, then Fereldan doesn't have a problem with it and oppossing it is done on the basis of policy priorities, not popular will. If Fereldan does mind a merger, it either is called off as Cailan backtracks, or the Landsmeet removes Cailan (or at least does not approve his heir) in favor of someone who will better represent Ferelden's national interests.

Them being slowly absorbed is in fact worse than full scale invasion.

Only if you place national institutions above all else.

It makes him a foolish idiotic *king*. Proper kings don't sell their nations.   

Plenty have, to ultimate the benefit of their people. The state can come or go, but the people remain. It makes him a bad king by nationalist standards, not a foolish idiot. Those are character attributes.

[Sarah1281]

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

It would make Ferelden into part of Orlais. I'd say that better relations are not worth losing your independence over.