501 réponses à ce sujet

[Monica21]

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

[BlueMew]

imported_beer wrote...

What was Cailan thinking?

He was having a blond moment.

[CalJones]

I assume you mean Cailan the fool vs Loghain the backstabber? There is nothing more dangerous than a fool with power and Cailan is one such person. Yes, he looks like a fool at Ostagar but I doubt many people saw the marriage to Celene coming. Loghain may have suspected something (we know from Cailan's tent guard that they were arguing over the queen) but his suspicions aren't confirmed until RtO. Other than that, most people would be oblivious to his plot, and I doubt many would be pleased.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because the war would end at some point and the embittered Fereldens would retain their national identity rather than having an alliance where everything that makes Ferelden unique would fade away over time in the face of Orlesian alternatives.

And, as a reminder to anyone who forgot, the South became Yankees with funny accents after the Civil War.

And the Basques in Spain disappeared from history.

And East Germany is now culturally identical after it has been assimilated by West Germany.

And Poland ceased to exist after the first time.

And there is no such thing as Chinese culture.

etc. etc. etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

It would make Ferelden into part of Orlais. I'd say that better relations are not worth losing your independence over.

Or Orlais a part of Ferelden. Depends on how the marriage is worded.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't buy this for one minute. How exactly would full blown war be better?

Because the war would end at some point and the embittered Fereldens would retain their national identity rather than having an alliance where everything that makes Ferelden unique would fade away over time in the face of Orlesian alternatives.

This really is an irrelevant argument to my mind.  The Fereldans managed to keep their unique identity under 70 years of occupation, they aren't going to lose it just in one generation by assimilation.  The nobility already affect Orlesian-ness a great deal, the smallfolk aren't going to care one way or another.  Fereldans are also independent and conservative at their core and have a decentralized society, not a top-down one.  If Cailan or his heir had tried to change the fundamental structure of the government, it would have gone down as well in the bannorn as it did when Loghain tried to circumvent it.  That is, not well.

Anyway, a bit of cultural mingling is going to happen naturally and isn't a bad thing.  Political autonomy is the important question.

[thesuperdarkone]

I say that Loghain did us all a favor when he betrayed Cailan. I hate to see what would have happened if Cailan managed to survive. At least we got hardened Alistair and Anora on the throne. Thanks Loghain!!

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And, as a reminder to anyone who forgot, the South became Yankees with funny accents after the Civil War.

You should go to Georgia sometime and call someone a Yankee just to see how they react.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

I assume you mean Cailan the fool vs Loghain the backstabber? There is nothing more dangerous than a fool with power and Cailan is one such person. Yes, he looks like a fool at Ostagar but I doubt many people saw the marriage to Celene coming. Loghain may have suspected something (we know from Cailan's tent guard that they were arguing over the queen) but his suspicions aren't confirmed until RtO. Other than that, most people would be oblivious to his plot, and I doubt many would be pleased.

It still would have had to go to the Landsmeet, unless Cailan planned to pull a Bhelen.

[Monica21]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

It would make Ferelden into part of Orlais. I'd say that better relations are not worth losing your independence over.

Or Orlais a part of Ferelden. Depends on how the marriage is worded.

Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is not. How would Orlais let itself be part of Ferelden, and why would the Empress allow that?

[MKDAWUSS]

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

It would make Ferelden into part of Orlais. I'd say that better relations are not worth losing your independence over.

Or Orlais a part of Ferelden. Depends on how the marriage is worded.

Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is not. How would Orlais let itself be part of Ferelden, and why would the Empress allow that?

Because the Empress has both countries under her leadership.

[MKDAWUSS]

Monica21 wrote...
You should go to Boston sometime and call someone a Yankee just to see how they react.

Fix'd

[Monica21]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

devilsoul wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Oh thanks sarah! What a dumb **** omg, this would likely have led to civil war. Horrible idea.

actually, this could improve the relationship between ferelden and orlais.

It would make Ferelden into part of Orlais. I'd say that better relations are not worth losing your independence over.

Or Orlais a part of Ferelden. Depends on how the marriage is worded.

Orlais is an Empire and Ferelden is not. How would Orlais let itself be part of Ferelden, and why would the Empress allow that?

Because the Empress has both countries under her leadership.

Which means that Ferelden is part of Orlais, and not the other way around.

[Monica21]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
You should go to Boston sometime and call someone a Yankee just to see how they react.

Fix'd

Heh.

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Oh, please. Don't break something lugging that arrogance around with you.

Speaks the Queen of Ignorance and Naivety. I can't believe people are that short sighted as to STILL claim that what Loghain was doing is WORSE then what Cailan was planning, or some claiming that Cailan marrying Celene was a smart move.

Oh, you decided to add an actual thought to your flame.  I suppose as proof of your intelligence and logic. 

But yes, let's review.  Loghain instituted a campaign of repression, covert and overt, against his political rivals; re-introduced slavery into Fereldan society; circumvented the Landsmeet to appoint himself potentate...  It all sounds pretty Orlesian to me.  I've already said an official marriage alliance with the Orlesians would have gone down like a lead balloon.  But Chairman Loghain nearly destroyed the country and Orlais with it by underestimating the Blight.  So yes, I do see them as dumb and dumber.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And no, it isn't universally seen as that. The interests of the people are not the same as the nation, as they aren't equivalents..

The nation is the people. If they are not given automonous self rule, then their interests are not being observed.

The Mongols were also turned culturally Chinese, and then assimilated into the cultures they conquered. .

Yoiu're comparing the Mongols to the Orlesians? Mongols were a nomadic non-civilised people who couldn't possibly assimilate China via population, economics and culture.

You honestly think that Fereldan will be able to assimilate Orlais?

To those who care about their nation as well. Plenty of nations strike alliances and have even struck mergers in moves that decrease their own national profile and privelages because of what they can gain in return. They just see it a different way, with a different perspective, and different priorities. Most of what we consider the Roman Empire, for example, was made up of regions and small powers who thought themselves not as Roman subjects but Roman allies, and stayed allied because of what they could and could not do. .

Alliance =/= merger.
And the Roman Empire. What do you think happened when those "allies" decided they no longer wanted to be a part of the Empire? That's right, they got crushed.
They foolishly believed themselves as "allies" while in reality they were subordinated.

If Fereldan doesn't mind a marriage merger of sorts, then Fereldan doesn't have a problem with it and oppossing it is done on the basis of policy priorities, not popular will. If Fereldan does mind a merger, it either is called off as Cailan backtracks, or the Landsmeet removes Cailan (or at least does not approve his heir) in favor of someone who will better represent Ferelden's national interests.

Considering that the landsmeet is comprised of short sighted nobles and that the bannorns fight each other over trees, I wouldn't trust Ferelden's national interest in them. 
 
And if indeed Cailan was planing on asking the landmseet of this, why was he *secretly* talking with Celene about it? Why not declare his intentions? Seems to me he already decided and was going to do it regardless of what the landsmeet says.
You assume that there are no ways to trick the landmseet into accepting. Bribery, buying loyalty. Pitting nobles against one another. Al these thigns are variables to be taken into account.

Only if you place national institutions above all else.

National independence and sovereignity above all else.

Plenty have, to ultimate the benefit of their people. The state can come or go, but the people remain. It makes him a bad king by nationalist standards, not a foolish idiot. Those are character attributes.

When the people are absorbed and do not have autonomous self-rule, they no longer remain like they were. All those who have sold their nations are fools who should have never been allowed to lead.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:11 .

[MKDAWUSS]

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And, as a reminder to anyone who forgot, the South became Yankees with funny accents after the Civil War.

You should go to Georgia sometime and call someone a Yankee just to see how they react.

I'm getting a shirt that says 'finish what Sherman started' with a picture of a burning Confederate flag on it. Think I'd fit in NC? :innocent:

On certain college campuses on certain weeks of the year.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
And, as a reminder to anyone who forgot, the South became Yankees with funny accents after the Civil War.[/quote]

Politically, they did. They were also reduced to poverty, and the carpetbaggers from up North came and pillaged the economy. To this day, much of the South is way poorer than the North.

[quote]And the Basques in Spain disappeared from history.[/quote]

They almost did. Even now, they are fighting for total independance from Spain, because the dominant Castillian culture and political policy still threaten to take over. Assimilation didn't work too well for them. Similar for Catalonia, though the Catalans have been less violent.

[quote]And East Germany is now culturally identical after it has been assimilated by West Germany.[/quote]

The two were once the same country, a country that had onl;y been formed 130 years ago, or so. East Germany is becoming more and more identical to West Germany as it shakes off the fleas of Soviet rule.

[quote]And Poland ceased to exist after the first time.[/quote]

Poland is an independant country now. But it has been part of other countries for most of it's history.

[quote]And there is no such thing as Chinese culture.[/quote]

Arguable since Mao.




[/quote]

[Monica21]

MariSkep wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And, as a reminder to anyone who forgot, the South became Yankees with funny accents after the Civil War.

You should go to Georgia sometime and call someone a Yankee just to see how they react.

I'm getting a shirt that says 'finish what Sherman started' with a picture of a burning Confederate flag on it. Think I'd fit in NC? :innocent:

Not really. But Sherman's March was through Georgia, so a better indicator of how you'd fit in would be to walk through Atlanta.

[Herr Uhl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So against all odds, Loghain was right that Cailan really was planning on dumping Anora to marry Empress Celene? I did not honestly think anyone would be that stupid... Thoughts? 

Making yourself a de facto fief of the country that you fought a revolution to get rid of about 30 years ago?

Only one word can sum up that plan: Glorious!

[Herr Uhl]

MariSkep wrote...

When the people are absorbed and do not have autonomous self-rule, they no longer remain like they were. All those who have sold their nations are fools who should have never been allowed to lead.

But if there's a net gain for all parties involved, how is it a bad thing?

Indeed, there have been mergers that have worked throughout time. That is how countries came to be, otherwise we'd be some odd million nations.