307 réponses à ce sujet

[SirOccam]

Theagg wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Thanks SO much to nickharvey86 and SirOccam for all the fantastic information: I love hearing people's impressions and SirOccam's is especially detailed.

About the dodging: I love that attacks won't automatically hit no matter what anymore. I hated that. If my character moves out of the way, then they shouldn't get hit by a melee attack. I know some may say that that's too action-rpg like, but I think it adds an entirely new dimension to tactical gameplay since you can now take character positioning into account even more.

For the record, in wargaming, fantasy or otherwise, its often the case that you cannot simply run away and thus evade an attack. In most wargame rules ( skirmish sets included ), running away whilst in melee usually give your opponent a free, unhindered and automatic hit at you.

Because in the process of running away you drop all your defenses. ( effectively its like turning your back and thus dropping your gaurd ) Defense capabilities and skills might negate this free attack ( I assume this is like the 'Disengage' skill warriors have in DA:O. Skirmish wargaming rules have similar )

So whilst this did look odd in DA;O, ie where you see the world 'Hurl' pop up next to a golem you are fighting and thus try to run to the left of right but are still pasted by the incoming boulder no matter where you have managed to run to, I didn't see this as an actual problem once you understood the combat wasn't actually 'real time' combat. The 'dice' had been rolled and the golem/ogre had scored its 'Hurl' hit, the combat and movement animations just confused people because they appeared to be real time.

Effectively what you are describing here sounds like something that moves the combat system far more into action and dexterity/quick reflexes based combat.( button mashing to call it by its common name ) Which for me personally is the wrong direction to  be taking it. Hmmm...

I don't mind it in terms of projectile attacks, like Hurl or archery, for the reasons you mentioned.

But I think melee attacks should be different. If there's a slow but powerful attack (like from an Ogre), then the slowness needs to be reflected, otherwise there's really no downside to balance out the increased power. Essentially, every attack is instantaneous under that system.

[andar91]

SirOccam wrote...

Theagg wrote...

andar91 wrote...

Thanks SO much to nickharvey86 and SirOccam for all the fantastic information: I love hearing people's impressions and SirOccam's is especially detailed.

About the dodging: I love that attacks won't automatically hit no matter what anymore. I hated that. If my character moves out of the way, then they shouldn't get hit by a melee attack. I know some may say that that's too action-rpg like, but I think it adds an entirely new dimension to tactical gameplay since you can now take character positioning into account even more.

For the record, in wargaming, fantasy or otherwise, its often the case that you cannot simply run away and thus evade an attack. In most wargame rules ( skirmish sets included ), running away whilst in melee usually give your opponent a free, unhindered and automatic hit at you.

Because in the process of running away you drop all your defenses. ( effectively its like turning your back and thus dropping your gaurd ) Defense capabilities and skills might negate this free attack ( I assume this is like the 'Disengage' skill warriors have in DA:O. Skirmish wargaming rules have similar )

So whilst this did look odd in DA;O, ie where you see the world 'Hurl' pop up next to a golem you are fighting and thus try to run to the left of right but are still pasted by the incoming boulder no matter where you have managed to run to, I didn't see this as an actual problem once you understood the combat wasn't actually 'real time' combat. The 'dice' had been rolled and the golem/ogre had scored its 'Hurl' hit, the combat and movement animations just confused people because they appeared to be real time.

Effectively what you are describing here sounds like something that moves the combat system far more into action and dexterity/quick reflexes based combat.( button mashing to call it by its common name ) Which for me personally is the wrong direction to  be taking it. Hmmm...

I don't mind it in terms of projectile attacks, like Hurl or archery, for the reasons you mentioned.

But I think melee attacks should be different. If there's a slow but powerful attack (like from an Ogre), then the slowness needs to be reflected, otherwise there's really no downside to balance out the increased power. Essentially, every attack is instantaneous under that system.

This is what I meant.  Of course ranged attacks are probably going to hit.  But if somebody's about to bash me over the head with a fist the size of a boulder, I think I should be safe if I move out of range.

[andar91]

Just thought of a question for those who've played the demo.



How did the models and animations look to you? Were the movements of the characters natural? From what I could discern from the live feed, the cutscenes look SO much more alive than Origins were. I think the camera angles had a lot to do with that.

[SirOccam]

andar91 wrote...

Just thought of a question for those who've played the demo.

How did the models and animations look to you? Were the movements of the characters natural? From what I could discern from the live feed, the cutscenes look SO much more alive than Origins were. I think the camera angles had a lot to do with that.

Absolutely, much better.

I've raved about the animations elsewhere, but they were fantastic. The mage combat animations were just so cool, and the rogue was like Edward Scissorhands. He was definitely all about speed and finesse. I just hope there's another Duelist-like specialization.

Lots of cool action going on in the cuscenes too, like Flemeth's transformation, Bethany throwing fireballs, people stumbling. Wesley was in pretty bad shape the whole time, and his animation in the cutscene really reflected that. Contrast that with, say, finding Brother Genetivi in Haven. He's just sort of lying flat on his back, and you really have no idea what state he's in apart from maybe a state of repose. There is never any doubt that Wesley is in pain, and struggling. Also you can see changes in his skin...I think he is tainted, but my demo ended just as Flemeth was mentioning his condition.

I think you're right about camera angles too. My favorite screenshot since the moment I saw it has always been this one. He is indeed talking to Bethany there (and it was right after she said "We can't keep this up forever") and there are all kinds of cool camera angles like that. Like I said before, even in situations where they're just standing there talking, there are pans and over-the-shoulders and other things that keep it interesting.

Modifié par SirOccam, 07 septembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Oh noes! Ocky has been brainwashed by BioWare's game into thinking that it is good! Oh noes! The doomsayers were right!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Those devils at Electronic Arts! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Foxvos]

When you were playing DA2, were there any moments in the short period of time where you were thinking (while playing Female Hawke)

"Geez, I should be playing male Hawke"



Did you feel some difference between playing the two different genders



I mean the marketing has been pointing at the males, so a bit worried.

[DarkSpiral]

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.



Well, okay they earned that rep. But I firmly believe that Bioware can make mistakes all on their own. Especially with Ray sitting fairly high in the hierarchy now.



But I'm derailing, apologies. Thanks for the info, SirOccam. I now find myself in the damnably irritating position of wondering if I should avoid the DA2 forums for the next several months, as we are rapidly approaching the point where I don't want to know anything else. I made that mistake with to many games in the past, and the game had no surprises for me.



Not so much DA:O. But no point in taking chances. Except for the voice actors! A cast list won't really spoil anything in terms of the story, and I'd really like to know who I'm going to sound like.

[SirOccam]

Foxvos wrote...

When you were playing DA2, were there any moments in the short period of time where you were thinking (while playing Female Hawke)
"Geez, I should be playing male Hawke"

Did you feel some difference between playing the two different genders

I mean the marketing has been pointing at the males, so a bit worried.

Not that I can think of. Both voice actors were good, and both convincing. They both gave off a good big brother/sister vibe when talking with the family. FemHawke does look really good, as we'll see tomorrow, or so I hear. (But then again I am a big fan of both short hair and chicks with swords.)

[andar91]

Thanks for answering SirOccam. Or "Ocky". lol, I love that nickname. I'm glad that they look better to you, I thought they looked nice as well (again, only going off of the live feed). I though Origins' conversations and cutscenes could get really boring. This is coming from someone who has never played a Mass Effect game, but I like the new cinematic style so far.

[Bryy_Miller]

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

That just means you are being paid a king's ransom to say nice things.

[andar91]

SirOccam wrote...

Foxvos wrote...

When you were playing DA2, were there any moments in the short period of time where you were thinking (while playing Female Hawke)
"Geez, I should be playing male Hawke"

Did you feel some difference between playing the two different genders

I mean the marketing has been pointing at the males, so a bit worried.

Not that I can think of. Both voice actors were good, and both convincing. They both gave off a good big brother/sister vibe when talking with the family. FemHawke does look really good, as we'll see tomorrow, or so I hear. (But then again I am a big fan of both short hair and chicks with swords.)

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/include/fckeditor/editor/images/spacer.gif[/smilie]
What's happening tomorrow?

Modifié par andar91, 07 septembre 2010 - 01:19 .

[Clover Rider]

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

Well, okay they earned that rep. But I firmly believe that Bioware can make mistakes all on their own. Especially with Ray sitting fairly high in the hierarchy now.

But I'm derailing, apologies. Thanks for the info, SirOccam. I now find myself in the damnably irritating position of wondering if I should avoid the DA2 forums for the next several months, as we are rapidly approaching the point where I don't want to know anything else. I made that mistake with to many games in the past, and the game had no surprises for me.

Not so much DA:O. But no point in taking chances. Except for the voice actors! A cast list won't really spoil anything in terms of the story, and I'd really like to know who I'm going to sound like.

It's not like EA is the Toei of games so be happy <_<.

[Theagg]

andar91 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

I don't mind it in terms of projectile attacks, like Hurl or archery, for the reasons you mentioned.

But I think melee attacks should be different. If there's a slow but powerful attack (like from an Ogre), then the slowness needs to be reflected, otherwise there's really no downside to balance out the increased power. Essentially, every attack is instantaneous under that system.

This is what I meant.  Of course ranged attacks are probably going to hit.  But if somebody's about to bash me over the head with a fist the size of a boulder, I think I should be safe if I move out of range.

Its a valid point, as you and SirOccam have made. For me though its only valid if its with respect to playing an 'action' RPG. ( which DA wasn't supposed to be ) Ie, yes, your own physical reflexes, upon seeing the Ogre ( or whatever ) wind up its big melee attack animation enabling you to quickly click the mouse and move/push the gampad putton and stick etc and get out the way before the big fist hits.

But thats you, the real you reacting and 'dodging'. Now, if that button mashing is also linked to your in game characters dexterity stats ( and the weight of gear they are wearing ) so that also has an effect on how well you can 'sidestep' a mighty blow, that's better. ( ie, low dexterity / heavy gear means that despite you reacting quickly and mashing those buttons, you simply can't evade the blow, because whilst your real 'fingers' are fast, your in game low dex character is a clumsy lumberer )

If they have gone the route of simply enabling you to doge melee attacks/get out of the way etc by virtue of how well and how quickly you can use the gampad/mouse etc. Then I'm not happy about that, as that's not 'role playing'.

If that ability to 'move out of the way' is heavily tied in with your characters stats etc, then maybe its acceptable.

[andar91]

Theagg wrote...

andar91 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

I don't mind it in terms of projectile attacks, like Hurl or archery, for the reasons you mentioned.

But I think melee attacks should be different. If there's a slow but powerful attack (like from an Ogre), then the slowness needs to be reflected, otherwise there's really no downside to balance out the increased power. Essentially, every attack is instantaneous under that system.

This is what I meant.  Of course ranged attacks are probably going to hit.  But if somebody's about to bash me over the head with a fist the size of a boulder, I think I should be safe if I move out of range.

Its a valid point, as you and SirOccam have made. For me though its only valid if its with respect to playing an 'action' RPG. ( which DA wasn't supposed to be ) Ie, yes, your own physical reflexes, upon seeing the Ogre ( or whatever ) wind up its big melee attack animation enabling you to quickly click the mouse and move/push the gampad putton and stick etc and get out the way before the big fist hits.

But thats you, the real you reacting and 'dodging'. Now, if that button mashing is also linked to your in game characters dexterity stats ( and the weight of gear they are wearing ) so that also has an effect on how well you can 'sidestep' a mighty blow, that's better. ( ie, low dexterity / heavy gear means that despite you reacting quickly and mashing those buttons, you simply can't evade the blow, because whilst your real 'fingers' are fast, your in game low dex character is a clumsy lumberer )

If they have gone the route of simply enabling you to doge melee attacks/get out of the way etc by virtue of how well and how quickly you can use the gampad/mouse etc. Then I'm not happy about that, as that's not 'role playing'.

If that ability to 'move out of the way' is heavily tied in with your characters stats etc, then maybe its acceptable.

To me, games are a visual medium.  As such, things like moving out of the way of a slow attack seem to make sense whereas it hitting regardless (based purely on stats) seems a bit silly and it takes the realism out of it for me since I can see my character.  Granted, weight of things being carried, nimbleness, and things like that would factor in if it was real, but at the same time it's a video game and I don't require that level of depth on this particular issue.

It sounds to me as though you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who's played a lot of pencil & paper rpg's, and that's great.  But there's a big difference between those and a video game.  I just don't think tactics necessarily require extremely complex factors when you're in control of your character and can see an attack coming (and so can they, probably) and you want to move out of the way.

[lunarknightmage]

man, the new rogue fight style sounds awesome!!



I just wish/hope that somehow, there will be a way for a melee mage to fight like a rogue, or a rogue learn a bit of magic.....lol.



I'm wondering, though, are the crazy new animations shown in the demo just part of Varric's exaggeration? And once we start playing the "real" story, the fighting will be much more "subdued".....

[SirOccam]

andar91 wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Foxvos wrote...

When you were playing DA2, were there any moments in the short period of time where you were thinking (while playing Female Hawke)
"Geez, I should be playing male Hawke"

Did you feel some difference between playing the two different genders

I mean the marketing has been pointing at the males, so a bit worried.

Not that I can think of. Both voice actors were good, and both convincing. They both gave off a good big brother/sister vibe when talking with the family. FemHawke does look really good, as we'll see tomorrow, or so I hear. (But then again I am a big fan of both short hair and chicks with swords.)

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/include/fckeditor/editor/images/spacer.gif[/smilie]
What's happening tomorrow?

Rumor has it that, aside from Witch Hunt and Lair of the Shadow Broker being released, they're also releasing a screenshot of FemHawke.

[Theagg]

andar91 wrote...

To me, games are a visual medium.  As such, things like moving out of the way of a slow attack seem to make sense whereas it hitting regardless (based purely on stats) seems a bit silly and it takes the realism out of it for me since I can see my character.  Granted, weight of things being carried, nimbleness, and things like that would factor in if it was real, but at the same time it's a video game and I don't require that level of depth on this particular issue.

It sounds to me as though you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who's played a lot of pencil & paper rpg's, and that's great.  But there's a big difference between those and a video game.  I just don't think tactics necessarily require extremely complex factors when you're in control of your character and can see an attack coming (and so can they, probably) and you want to move out of the way.

Hmm, its not just that its a video game and therefore we can forgo realism. Its coming back to that debate eleswhere about the term 'action RPG', what that meant and was DA 2 heading into that territory.

No, its not about realism per se, its about what my character can do, versus what my fingers can do. My fingers are not my character. ( That's the important point ) So its not a case of it looks like I personally could dodge the blow, based on what is displaying on screen,( the visuals, the animations ) its about the fact my character, with a dexterity of 5 and a hefty set of armour and equipmnet couldn't possibly do that.

Otherwise the stats then lose their in game meaning if we can override them by how we can actually, physically react via the input device Or think we could just because the Ogre's big swing as rendered looks slow.

and there are plenty of other video games that allow you to do just that...( ie test your input device skills )

[SirOccam]

lunarknightmage wrote...

man, the new rogue fight style sounds awesome!!

I just wish/hope that somehow, there will be a way for a melee mage to fight like a rogue, or a rogue learn a bit of magic.....lol.

I'm wondering, though, are the crazy new animations shown in the demo just part of Varric's exaggeration? And once we start playing the "real" story, the fighting will be much more "subdued".....

I think the animations are more or less the same, but the effects of your attacks are definitely more realistic. Not that you can't still do cool things, but you won't be launching yourself at a group of darkspawn and making them all explode.

Also, during the exaggeration portion, you got additional abilities, like warriors and rogues (or at least one of them) had a sort of whirlwind ability that I really missed when I didn't have it. Also Bethany had this great "rain of fire" spell. It was a huge AoE and these almost mini-fireballs would fall from the sky all over.

[SirOccam]

Theagg wrote...

andar91 wrote...

To me, games are a visual medium.  As such, things like moving out of the way of a slow attack seem to make sense whereas it hitting regardless (based purely on stats) seems a bit silly and it takes the realism out of it for me since I can see my character.  Granted, weight of things being carried, nimbleness, and things like that would factor in if it was real, but at the same time it's a video game and I don't require that level of depth on this particular issue.

It sounds to me as though you're coming at this from the perspective of someone who's played a lot of pencil & paper rpg's, and that's great.  But there's a big difference between those and a video game.  I just don't think tactics necessarily require extremely complex factors when you're in control of your character and can see an attack coming (and so can they, probably) and you want to move out of the way.

Hmm, its not just that its a video game and therefore we can forgo realism. Its coming back to that debate eleswhere about the term 'action RPG', what that meant and was DA 2 heading into that territory.

No, its not about realism per se, its about what my character can do, versus what my fingers can do. My fingers are not my character. ( That's the important point ) So its not a case of it looks like I personally could dodge the blow, based on what is displaying on screen,( the visuals, the animations ) its about the fact my character, with a dexterity of 5 and a hefty set of armour and equipmnet couldn't possibly do that.

Otherwise the stats then lose their in game meaning if we can override them by how we can actually, physically react via the input device Or think we could just because the Ogre's big swing as rendered looks slow.

and there are plenty of other video games that allow you to do just that...( ie test your input device skills )

I get where you're coming from, but it really didn't feel twitchy. It was just a matter of actually running out of range. Unless you have a "line up and fight" thing like Final Fantasy, it seems like that'll always be a possibility.

It wasn't so much about dodging a blow, it was more like "holy crap here comes an ogre, he's going to hit me, I'm out of here." I'm probably not explaining it that well.

[DarkSpiral]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

That just means you are being paid a king's ransom to say nice things.

First, read the rest of my post.  I didn't say anything nice about EA, and pointed out they earned their bad reputation.  Second, FIND a time I defend EA's actions when EA actually did something.  I am merely tired of peopel pulling out the EA card when the blame for a given descision lies within Bioware.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:05 .

[DarkSpiral]

Some Geth wrote...

It's not like EA is the Toei of games so be happy <_<.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that?

[Saibh]

DarkSpiral wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

That just means you are being paid a king's ransom to say nice things.

First, read the rest of my post.  I didn't say anything nice about EA, and pointed out they earned their bad reputation.  Second, FIND a time I defend EA's actions when EA actually did something.  I am merely tired of peopel pulling out the EA card when the blame for a given descision lies within Bioware.

I'm...pretty sure Bryy was being ironic.

Right? 

[Bryy_Miller]

Saibh wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

That just means you are being paid a king's ransom to say nice things.

First, read the rest of my post.  I didn't say anything nice about EA, and pointed out they earned their bad reputation.  Second, FIND a time I defend EA's actions when EA actually did something.  I am merely tired of peopel pulling out the EA card when the blame for a given descision lies within Bioware.

I'm...pretty sure Bryy was being ironic.

Right? 

I was all ready to keep going.

[Saibh]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Saibh wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...

.....I'm so tired of hearing about EA being the devil.

That just means you are being paid a king's ransom to say nice things.

First, read the rest of my post.  I didn't say anything nice about EA, and pointed out they earned their bad reputation.  Second, FIND a time I defend EA's actions when EA actually did something.  I am merely tired of peopel pulling out the EA card when the blame for a given descision lies within Bioware.

I'm...pretty sure Bryy was being ironic.

Right? 

I was all ready to keep going.

I can do a ninja edit, if you like.