136 réponses à ce sujet

[The Uncanny]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Yana Montana wrote...

No.

Sounds like someone could use some cookies.

I think you're right!



My first playthrough I actually thought they were pretty good bad guys. That faceless quality makes them seem pretty generic by your twelfth playthrough... but at the time that lack of 'personality' or any identifiable motive made them quite scary for me...

[Freelancer rook]

Not really.

[Xilizhra]

I think it would have been better if the Collectors hadn't been mindless. Even the geth, a race of literally faceless mooks, had identifiable motives, and things got even more interesting after talking to Legion; the whole geth split was easily the best story of ME2 (I rewrote the heretics with pride).



As a sidenote, am I the only one who thinks that the Collector ship we keep running into in ME2 is the only Collector ship there is?

[AngryFrozenWater]

In ME1 the enemies are mysterious and throughout the game you find out more and more about them. It feels like no one is forcing you to go after them. You feel it is something you must do. You really want to see what's next. You want to unravel the mystery and slay Saren and Sovereign.

In ME2 the enemies are known right from the start. There is little mystery. You rarely find out things yourself. You are forced into following leads from an organization that my (paragon and renegade) Shepards don't want to be part of.

I would be glad if ME3 got a proper story again - a story my Shepards can relate to. ME2 now feels like a game with a thin story and a cheesy "boss" in the end.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[TheShadowmancer]

They never felt a compelling enemy and I was never emotionally hurt when a human colony was destroyed. Thus I never really wanted to destroy the collectors that badly. Oh yeah



http://social.biowar...5/index/4589437



The thread I made about this matter

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

No.

Because I was busy collecting their thermal clips.

[Marzillius]

Nightwriter wrote...

Did anyone else get the sense that the Collectors were nothing more than plot devices meant to occupy our time between the first and last installments?

This is exactly what I think.

ME1 is a story that will continue in a trilogy. Then ME2 comes in, goes into a cul-de-sac and leaves off essentially where ME1 ended. Then ME3 will come and end the story.

[Nightwriter]

That is so lame though.

[Burdokva]

Purely from a gameplay perspective, no. Unlike the Geth in Mass Effect, the Collectors were far too repetitive for an interesting adversary. A single basic trooper type, with only two types of weapons, and Harbinger present in every single firefight (except the first couple of minutes on Horizon) with them.



There simply wasn't any variety. Fighting Geth in the first game always brought a sense of unknown - they had snipers, hoppers, rocket troopers, heavier assault troopers, basic troops. I never knew exactly what I'll be up against.



The Collectors are very predictable, especially Harbinger. Instead of the the heart-pounding appearance he should have made, his constant present was a chore, as every fight became one of exhaustion. He should have been used more scarcely and the Collectors should have had some troop variety, like Geth Primes. I don't count Husks because not only are they annoying in ME2, but somehow they don't fit... thematically with the rest of the Collector force.



I hope we see some Collectors in ME3. Maybe some of their ships were out hunting human colonies while Shepard assaulted their base-homeworld, so we can at least occasionally encounter them.



Although visually they are pretty cool enemies, and Collector weapons are very fun to use (the armor is intimidating, too). But after the first playthrough, I was mostly bored fighting them...



Note - less mercs in ME3. Please!

[Nightwriter]

The Collectors had ground troops, scions, praetorians, husks, abominations. I think there was variety, but we just didn't get the impression of variety because they were such a monotonous and uninspiring enemy.

[LiquidGrape]

I believe much of the problem stems from the detachment from the threat.
In ME1, Saren's betrayal is pretty much the first thing you see. It's on, it's personal, and he'll be a constant source of annoyance until the finale when you're given the chance to take him down.

The Collectors are simply too blank a slate.
Now, I like the idea of an homogenised, faceless enemy (See System Shock 2 for further info) but without any real sense of intrigue or ambiguity, that ambition falls flat. The revelation of their Prothean heritage was a major "meh" in my case. I simply didn't care.
And big bipedal bugs speaking like deepthroat isn't quite as threatening as you'd think...

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:49 .

[Nightwriter]

Troof.

Saren was way personal as a villain. Your first encounter with him is very personal. Some would say the Collector threat is personal because the game begins with them destroying my ship, but this just isn't so for me.

Maybe it's because I knew the ship was going to get destroyed months in advance, or maybe it was because I knew it was a plot device and I had to die somehow, or maybe it was because I never actually saw a single Collector, just some ship, but them taking out the Normandy just didn't strike me the same as Saren appearing on Eden Prime, destroying the entire colony, ruining my mission, killing Nihlus, then standing bold-faced in front of the Council, lying through his teeth, and saying "I'm glad to see justice was served" after being pardoned. Grr.

[Collider]

Were you motivated by the enemy in ME2?

no

[Nightwriter]

Good old Collider.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Yes, even more so because I was working with them.

[Barquiel]

Nightwriter wrote...

 Did you feel inspired to stop them?

no

But the archdemon/darkspawn or Saren/geth were not much better...imo.
I think John Irenicus and Sun Li are the best BW villains.

[Chuvvy]

No. They were throw away.

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Yes, even more so because I was working with them.

... You were working with the Collectors?

[BurningArmor]

The lack of an in-your-face kind of enemy may have been intentional.  Shepard's war is a shadow war after all.

The discussion with Vigil on Illos mentioned a tactic of the Reapers was to send indoctrinated individuals of the target spieces to infiltrate the target before the attack comes.  It makes me think of Horizon when they lost communications.  The stealth of a predator has been the Collector's method of attack  The Collectors don't want you thinking about them constantly.   Makes their next strike easier.  Collectors like the Stealth, the Bobbie Traps, the Trojan Horses and the Slight of Hand type tactics.

The Collector threat was mostly to soft targets like undefended colonies.  With the swarms, a single collector cruiser was sufficient for taking all colonials.  They were not limited to soft targets though.  Small hard targets like Normandy (SR1) could be handled early in ME2 by the Collectors.  The Collector tech, which is actually based on Reaper tech, made them look much more capable as they were successfully striking targets accross the Terminus Systems.  

Note an observation: Tthe space station may have been just a re-purposed Collector Dreadnaught instead of an actual space station.  I say that because of the hologram Shepard and his team had up in the conference room as they planned their attack on the base.  That hologram depicts the same sillouette as the Collector Cruiser as seen standing on it's nose.  

The Collectors themselves were too few in number to be a major threat by themselves.  After all they seemed to be the crews of just one cruiser and a space station.  To augment their numbers, the collectors hired local mercenaries.  You could buy off a merc, and the credits certainly did not mean anything to the Collectors. 

1.)  The most obvious case of Collectors using Mercs happened during Mordin's recruitment mission.  The Blood Pack on Omega was trying to destroy the Blue Suns and the non-human elements on Omega.  The Vorcha in particular seemed interested in taking Omega for their own so indoctrination was not required.

2.)  The Blue Suns never spoke up on the topic of working for the Collectors. 
       A.)  However, Zaeed trying to kill Santiago may have kept Santiago below the Collector's radars so one stop shopping for control was never set up with the Blue Suns.  
       B.)  Elements of the Blue Suns fought each other for control of various operations, and many of these elements seemed very interested in Prothean Technology.  Why, other than maybe credits, is unclear. 
       C.)  There was also the elements of the Blue Suns that seemed intent on accessing and gaining control of the Citadel via Harkin.  These Blue Suns may or may not have been trouble waiting to happen if they had techs there to fix the gate to Dark Space.
       D.)  Oh, yes; lest we forget the Warden's attempt on the prison barge Purgatory to capture Shepard for sale to his customer.  It may have been the Shadow Broker or perhaps the Collectors directly.  Not sure really not that it made a difference to the end destination.   

3.)  During the Archangel mission, Shepard can recover an Eclipse datapad.  This datapad indicated all three merc groups, Blood Pack, Blue Suns, and Eclipse were preparing to take Aria's organization down.  Hopefully giving Aria the datapad allowed her to clean that mess up before the Collector's could make the merc occupied Omega a forward base and listening post.  In other missions, elements of Eclipse may nave been sent specifically after Cerberus.  For example, the mission in which Shepard is sent to recover the captured Cerberus Operative.

A parting thought - When you add the use of the mercs, I think the Collectors are an on-going threat.

 

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightwriter wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Yes, even more so because I was working with them.

... You were working with the Collectors?

No, Cerberus was the real enemy all along. Or rather the Illusive Man, as Cerberus - the organisation - is merely a means to an end; a tool.

Just like how Loghain was the true villain of Dragon Age: Origins, not the Archdemon and the Blight.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:31 .

[Nightwriter]

BurningArmor wrote...

The lack of an in-your-face kind of enemy may have been intentional.  Shepard's war is a shadow war after all.

The discussion with Vigil on Illos mentioned a tactic of the Reapers was to send indoctrinated individuals of the target spieces to infiltrate the target before the attack comes.  It makes me think of Horizon when they lost communications.  The stealth of a predator has been the Collector's method of attack  The Collectors don't want you thinking about them constantly.   Makes their next strike easier.  Collectors like the Stealth, the Bobbie Traps, the Trojan Horses and the Slight of Hand type tactics.

The Collector threat was mostly to soft targets like undefended colonies.  With the swarms, a single collector cruiser was sufficient for taking all colonials.  They were not limited to soft targets though.  Small hard targets like Normandy (SR1) could be handled early in ME2 by the Collectors.  The Collector tech, which is actually based on Reaper tech, made them look much more capable as they were successfully striking targets accross the Terminus Systems.  

Note an observation: Tthe space station may have been just a re-purposed Collector Dreadnaught instead of an actual space station.  I say that because of the hologram Shepard and his team had up in the conference room as they planned their attack on the base.  That hologram depicts the same sillouette as the Collector Cruiser as seen standing on it's nose.  

The Collectors themselves were too few in number to be a major threat by themselves.  After all they seemed to be the crews of just one cruiser and a space station.  To augment their numbers, the collectors hired local mercenaries.  You could buy off a merc, and the credits certainly did not mean anything to the Collectors. 

1.)  The most obvious case of Collectors using Mercs happened during Mordin's recruitment mission.  The Blood Pack on Omega was trying to destroy the Blue Suns and the non-human elements on Omega.  The Vorcha in particular seemed interested in taking Omega for their own so indoctrination was not required.

2.)  The Blue Suns never spoke up on the topic of working for the Collectors. 
       A.)  However, Zaeed trying to kill Santiago may have kept Santiago below the Collector's radars so one stop shopping for control was never set up with the Blue Suns.  
       B.)  Elements of the Blue Suns fought each other for control of various operations, and many of these elements seemed very interested in Prothean Technology.  Why, other than maybe credits, is unclear. 
       C.)  There was also the elements of the Blue Suns that seemed intent on accessing and gaining control of the Citadel via Harkin.  These Blue Suns may or may not have been trouble waiting to happen if they had techs there to fix the gate to Dark Space.
       D.)  Oh, yes; lest we forget the Warden's attempt on the prison barge Purgatory to capture Shepard for sale to his customer.  It may have been the Shadow Broker or perhaps the Collectors directly.  Not sure really not that it made a difference to the end destination.   

3.)  During the Archangel mission, Shepard can recover an Eclipse datapad.  This datapad indicated all three merc groups, Blood Pack, Blue Suns, and Eclipse were preparing to take Aria's organization down.  Hopefully giving Aria the datapad allowed her to clean that mess up before the Collector's could make the merc occupied Omega a forward base and listening post.  In other missions, elements of Eclipse may nave been sent specifically after Cerberus.  For example, the mission in which Shepard is sent to recover the captured Cerberus Operative.

A parting thought - When you add the use of the mercs, I think the Collectors are an on-going threat.

 

Eh. The reason I still think they weren't a good enemy is there are much better ways to present a "shadow war".

Maybe it's me, but I didn't feel like the Collectors were these mysterious shady villains who inspired great interest with their every mysterious action. The thing with enemies like that is we need to get an impression of their intelligence. We need to feel like we're playing chess with an entity in the shadows. I didn't feel that way. It's because the Collectors didn't feel present enough.

And even in shadow wars, the enemy needs to feel present. Consistently. We need to feel like they're around every corner. We didn't.

[Nightwriter]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

No, Cerberus was the real enemy all along. Or rather the Illusive Man, as Cerberus - the organisation - is merely a means to an end; a tool.

Just like how Loghain was the true villain of Dragon Age: Origins, not the Archdemon and the Blight.

Ha! You see? And then when I try to start a thread in the CDG comparing Saren and TIM as villains it's all "Oh no, we can't do that, TIM isn't really a villain!" In your face, Surface!

Ahem...

But the Collectors are the threat that pull you and Cerberus together as allies. They are meant to be the compelling factor of game two. They are the enemy. And ME2 didn't do nearly as good a job as DA:O did with Loghain.

[smudboy]

Nightwriter wrote...

Ha! You see? And then when I try to start a thread in the CDG comparing Saren and TIM as villains it's all "Oh no, we can't do that, TIM isn't really a villain!" In your face, Surface!

Ahem...

But the Collectors are the threat that pull you and Cerberus together as allies. They are meant to be the compelling factor of game two. They are the enemy. And ME2 didn't do nearly as good a job as DA:O did with Loghain.

You could always start a new thread after LOTSB, arguing the completely unrealistic controls of flying cars...

[ThisIsMadness91]

Hm...not really, no. Sovereign, Saren and the geth heretics were openly fighting organic life from the moment the game started. The cycle was about to restart itself, and we saw the effects it was having on the galaxy. I felt determined to stop them. The Collectors were covertly abducting human colonies for two years, but apart from some upset relatives, few people seemed to care, and it was hard to see any imminent threat. By the time I found out what was happening to the colonists and felt motivated to stop the Collectors, I was already inside their base sending them all to Hell.

[dreman9999]

Not really. I was mostly doing this  to help the colonist and to get to the reapers. The Collecters had no soul through out the game and you later find out their husks any, so I felt nother for then except when Harbinger, the Scions, and that Flying thing showed up. Though at the end  I ended up fear the reapers more and then soon after disbelief that Bioware choose that thing as a last boss.