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[dreman9999]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Did anyone else get the sense that the Collectors were nothing more than plot devices meant to occupy our time between the first and last installments?

90% of ME2 was that way. The only thing ME2 really added to the trilogy's story is the character of TIM, and maybe the "true" Geth. Everything else was a filler and gameplay. But I believe it's been beaten to death already a couple of times.

Not 100% true. ME2 expanded the universe to give us a better understand of it and the cultures with in it and better characters and character development as well as TIM and the true Geth.

[SonofMacPhisto]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I believe much of the problem stems from the detachment from the threat.
In ME1, Saren's betrayal is pretty much the first thing you see. It's on, it's personal, and he'll be a constant source of annoyance until the finale when you're given the chance to take him down.

The Collectors are simply too blank a slate.
Now, I like the idea of an homogenised, faceless enemy (See System Shock 2 for further info) but without any real sense of intrigue or ambiguity, that ambition falls flat. The revelation of their Prothean heritage was a major "meh" in my case. I simply didn't care.
And big bipedal bugs speaking like deepthroat isn't quite as threatening as you'd think...

Preface: Pardon my passion, for I say all this in good humor.

'Detachment from the threat?'  THEY BLOW YOU THE HELL UP IN THE FIRST TEN MINTUES OF THE GAME.  Pressley dies!  Liara is panicking!  Does your crew escape, or are they hunted down?  You barely save Joker's sorry butt, and before you know it you're drifting into space... the Normandy explodes... then, you see air leaking from your hardsuit...

For me, Garrus said it best, 'They killed you once, and all it did was ****** you off.'

I love both games, and think they both rock for different reasons, but that's WAY the heck more intense than the beginning of ME1.  In the time it takes you to get to Anderson and Nihlus in ME1, in ME2 you're already DEAD.

I guess it's obvious by now () that for me, the Collectors were a compelling enemy.  They were a tough fight on Horizon, and in the Collector Ship.  I took my time, prepped the team, and made sure everything was ready the best I could.  Those bastards were going to pay, and if I may say so, they paid in style.

Beyond that, I couldn't help but wonder at the mystery of their existence and purpose.  After ME1, Sovereign was destroyed and for all intents and purposes the Reapers are stranded outside the galaxy.  Was this their plan B?  We know the Collectors were around before the events of ME1.  What were they up to?  Was it a kind of intel gathering for the Reapers?  Also, that Collector base had been there a LONG time.  Was it just for the Collectors, or had other species utilized it as well?

Anyway, that's the tip of the iceberg, for me.

[Nightwriter]

You realize I already said that, SonofMacPhisto.

The fact that the Collectors blew up your ship wasn't enough. So what? Okay, these guys want to kill me. Lots of people want to kill me in games. What's special about this? It's a simple plot restart, and an obvious one. We knew it was going to happen. The attack itself isn't personal. Just another ship blowing up yours from space.

It would be totally different if right before the attack the Collector General had popped into your quarters via hologram and said, "Pay your respects to your friends. You will never see them again," or "10,000 civilizations greater and more powerful than your own have fallen to our might - you are about to learn you are no different."

But that didn't happen. We don't even see a single Collector, a face we can attach an emotion to.  

[SonofMacPhisto]

Nightwriter wrote...

You realize I already said that, SonofMacPhisto.

The fact that the Collectors blew up your ship wasn't enough. So what? Okay, these guys want to kill me. Lots of people want to kill me in games. What's special about this? It's a simple plot restart, and an obvious one. We knew it was going to happen. The attack itself isn't personal. Just another ship blowing up yours from space.

It would be totally different if right before the attack the Collector General had popped into your quarters via hologram and said, "Pay your respects to your friends. You will never see them again," or "10,000 civilizations greater and more powerful than your own have fallen to our might - you are about to learn you are no different."

But that didn't happen. We don't even see a single Collector, a face we can attach an emotion to.  

Gah!  I do now.  Sorry.  In my passioned rush to respond, I completely glossed over your post.

Hmm, I wonder why a faceless enemy inspires some, but not others.

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 06 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Yeah... after the initial fight at the beginning of ME2, I was pretty underwhelmed. When they were revealed to be Protheans, it was pretty meh to me.



THe one bit where that really engaged me was where Harbinger released control of the general and then they all died a la Shepard and co. That kind of made me feel sorry for them, but aside from that, the Geth in ME1 were far more engaging as enemies.



That, and the collectors just don't appear enough in ME2 to be mindblowing. Let's face it... ME2 is no Empire Strikes Back in terms of character development.

[Nightwriter]

SonofMacPhisto wrote...

Gah!  I do now.  Sorry.  In my passioned rush to respond, I completely glossed over your post.

Hmm, I wonder why a faceless enemy inspires some, but not others.

Yeah, I'm really not sure. I think it comes down to less being more with some people. Or something.

And they really should've expanded on what we saw when Harbinger released control of the Collector General. In the whole game, that was the one moment of emotion I felt in regards to the enemy. I think that theme should've played all the way through ME2 - them showing us scenes wherein we felt sorry for the Collector General, or any Collector.

What good is telling us they're Protheans if it doesn't change how we feel about the Collectors?

[Eber]

The sympathy for the collector General is misplaced. He is no regal warrior forced to do things against his will. His higher functions have long since been replaced by one purpose tech. He is hardwired to serve and collect and that's all he will ever do, under control or not. There is no prothean general hiding in the collector.



"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

[EffectedByTheMasses]

Eber wrote...

The sympathy for the collector General is misplaced. He is no regal warrior forced to do things against his will. His higher functions have long since been replaced by one purpose tech. He is hardwired to serve and collect and that's all he will ever do, under control or not. There is no prothean general hiding in the collector.

"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

Another reason why I didn't feel much sympathy for the collectors. After the initial reveal that they were protheans, I felt pretty underwhelmed because of the fact that they were pretty much nothing more than machines, as opposed to, for example the guy in ME1 under the Feros tunnels who was trying to resist the Thorian's will but couldn't.

When I say I felt sorry for the COllector General, I mean in the part where he looks so confused after being under control for so long, and then gets blown up an instant later.

[Eber]

I see what you mean. Even if he is not much of an individual and an enemy his confused and helpless look can still evoke sympathy.

[ADLegend21]

I thought this through and I think Mass effect 2 was like filler for me1 to me3. also it was to make Shepard more of a badass. I mean when you think about it two of the biggest enemies in me 1 were Thresher Maws and geth Collosus units and you'd widdle their massive amounts of health down with the mako turrt and rocket then with the little sliver of health left you'd get out and shoot like hell, but in Mass effect 2 you took out one of each on foot with nothing more than the weapons and pwoers of your squadmates. same with the ending you took out a REAPER on foot when you needed 3 fleets to take one out in the first game. (Even though the human one was just a "baby" it still had it's main weapon online which was pretty damn devestating) The collectors also played into this since they were Harbingers "spec ops" soldiers or whatever and they were taking out humanity because of Shepard and they hid until they knew they had Shepard in their grasps.

[Nightwriter]

And that's why making the Collectors mindless automatons was a bad idea - or at least, making them all mindless automatons was. No sympathy. No interest. No emotional connection.

[SonofMacPhisto]

EffectedByTheMasses wrote...

Eber wrote...

The sympathy for the collector General is misplaced. He is no regal warrior forced to do things against his will. His higher functions have long since been replaced by one purpose tech. He is hardwired to serve and collect and that's all he will ever do, under control or not. There is no prothean general hiding in the collector.

"No soul, replaced by tech" - Mordin

Another reason why I didn't feel much sympathy for the collectors. After the initial reveal that they were protheans, I felt pretty underwhelmed because of the fact that they were pretty much nothing more than machines, as opposed to, for example the guy in ME1 under the Feros tunnels who was trying to resist the Thorian's will but couldn't.

When I say I felt sorry for the COllector General, I mean in the part where he looks so confused after being under control for so long, and then gets blown up an instant later.

Do we feel horror at what the Reapers did to them?  Does that invoke any sympathy, or some other emotion?

With Saren, at a couple points in the story you can see his true self punch its way out.  The the Collectors, that never happens.  Probably because the indoctrination and re-engineering was complete.  I don't know which is worse to behold.

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[SonofMacPhisto]

Nightwriter wrote...

And that's why making the Collectors mindless automatons was a bad idea - or at least, making them all mindless automatons was. No sympathy. No interest. No emotional connection.

Haha, I wonder if they'd had at least one Collector break out with some kind of emotional moment, we'd all be complaining that it's unrealistic.

'Oh, yeah right.  That one Collector that cries about the fate of his species?  Totally unbelievable.'

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 06 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[Nightwriter]

Bah. Screw the realists!



Provoking emotional storytelling > realism.

[SonofMacPhisto]

Nightwriter wrote...

Bah. Screw the realists!

Provoking emotional storytelling > realism.

Yes.  This.

[Slayer299]

Nightwriter wrote...

Did anyone else get the sense that the Collectors were nothing more than plot devices meant to occupy our time between the first and last installments?

Yeah, pretty much. I never felt any sense of urgency with the Collectors, I was too busy with getting my people loyal and whatever other missions that popped up to even remember them sometimes.

[Nerevar-as]

Slayer299 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Did anyone else get the sense that the Collectors were nothing more than plot devices meant to occupy our time between the first and last installments?

Yeah, pretty much. I never felt any sense of urgency with the Collectors, I was too busy with getting my people loyal and whatever other missions that popped up to even remember them sometimes.

This should be fixed for ME3. It was also in ME1, but you could go to plot missions and the game gained intensity. On the other side it also allowed you to travel all around just before Ilos with no penalty. There should have been a special game over for this. The problem with ME2 was that to get to the main plot missions you had to play several squad missions. If you want the good ending, almost all of them. And while they are usually good, they still fell like filler.

Didn´t get much sense of threat from the Collectors, with them being tools. Just felt even sorrier for the Protheans. Harbinger however...

[DOYOURLABS]

The only time I was motivated by the collectors was during the suicide mission, and I was motivated during the missile side quest.

[Jzadek72]

Enemies that are emotionless are good if they have a "human face".

The Borg had Locutus, and later Lore, the Heretic Geth had Saren, the Cylons had the skinjobs.

The Darkspawn didn't have one but made up for it with Loghain being the antagonist for much of DA:O.



When an enemy like the Collectors has no human face, they frequently become boring. Threats like that are only intruguing when supremely powerful. The Shrike for example in Hyperion, a god like being that can manipulate time, or the Excession in the Culture novels, which could massacre the ships of a civilisations with nearly limitless energy, and we weren't even sure how. And of course Mass Effect's very own Reapers.



The collectors couldn't work like that- Mass Effect already had its godlike enemies, and so the collectors had to be weaker, but then all interest in them is lessened. Simply giving them a Saren-like character to work with them would have sorted it out - perhaps a Mercenary leader who recognised the power they could provide him/her with.



But we weren't given that. We were given boring enemies, who really didn't intrigue me in the slightest. I felt no hate, nor sorrow, nor intrigue for our enemies, and didn't really care. Luckily, I found it didn't matter, and ME2 was more about the experiences of our protagonists.

[Ramgigon]

 Not really, no. Not until the Collector ship, at least, where I found out everything about them and the mystery went away.They were faceless enemies. That's not strictly a bad thing, but their identity wasn't the only thing gone - they didn't have a motivation either, thus their downfall. They're slaves, mindless slaves. Robots, one might even compare them to. While faceless enemies can be good for plot, they could have been handled much, much better.
For reference, look at Benezia from ME1. At first, we hear of her and view her as evil, an enemy that must be stopped. When you face her in combat, she's just as monstrous as you were led to believe, and you unfeelingly defeat her - but when you do, when she fights the indoctrination and speaks to you as herself, she becomes an amazing enemy: she's not evil, far from it. She doesn't really have any face in her evil, being a mindless husk for Sovereign, and is just as flat a villain as the Collectors. But when you hear her lamenting her fate, being "forced to watch as your hands slaughter," you pity her - it's regretful that you have to kill her, and her fate actually fuels you to defeat Saren. On the other hand, the Collectors have no motivation, they just do it because they do it; you don't really feel sorry for them, or care about them despite having to kill them, or anything like that.
Personally, I would have preferred it a thousand times if they retained their sentience, and were struggling constantly to try to regain their freedom, like Benezia, but were overwhelmed by the might of indoctrination. Imagine if you could find recordings of Collector speech lamenting the horror of failing to control their atrocities, praying for the deliverance of destruction Shepard was bringing them. If you could maybe speak to one, maybe the Collector general over a network, and see a mirror of Saren - his reasoning, his desperate reasoning for why his compulsions are correct, and not an indoctrinated will.

All in all, the "who are these mysterious creatures" in the first half is pulled off well, but the faceless, mindless evil in the second half is not. You can certainly hate them - they killed you, after all - you can feel sorry for them, as the repurposed Protheans, but really, you can never feel for them, and in a good villain, that's key.

(And sorry for the exceedingly long post, I'm a novice writer myself so I get enthusiastic about this sort of thing. )

[Zan51]

^ What the last 2 OPs said. Now that would have been really engaging and made the enemy more personal. The over the top Bond villain speeches, as others said, just came across as corny, not personal

[Nightwriter]

I totally agree with Jzadek and Ramgigon. Totally. Well done, guys.

[gunswordfist]

Not even close. They were some far off threat I just hear about from some reports. Them non-violently taking colonists and only seeing some partial footage of a few people getting melted at the end also help me not be compelled to stop them. I only do it because they are fun to shoot at and I hate being shot at.



But it's not like its easy to be motivated to fight a video game enemy. I'd laugh myself to sleep if BW did something obvious like having the enemy torture your LI. I honestly can't think of anything. I was watching Prison Break today and wanted some bad guys who killed some teenager's family to die so badly but I doubt that could be translated into a game like Mass Effect.

[ThisIsMadness91]

SonofMacPhisto wrote...

Haha, I wonder if they'd had at least one Collector break out with some kind of emotional moment, we'd all be complaining that it's unrealistic.

'Oh, yeah right.  That one Collector that cries about the fate of his species?  Totally unbelievable.'

For reasons unknown to me, as soon as I read this post, my head became full of thoughts of "Collector sole survivor for squadmate and LI in ME3"...

[gunswordfist]

Christmas Ape wrote... Well, they blew up my goddamn ship, so I'll admit I started things out with a certain

amount of spite towards the Collector race.

Then it's revealed that they've already taken tens of thousands of human colonists, and everybody's sitting on their hands about it.

Then they boarded my new ship, abducted my new crew, and took my delightfully unprofessional personal assistant back to

their lumpy-ass ship for some unwholesome

purpose. So yeah. I'll admit a strong desire to stick it in

and break it off re: the Collectors, blended

with a kind of nauseous pity over their

"repurposed" existence. But then, I'm like the king of buy-in, so it's

easy for me to come at it from Shepard's

angle instead of my own.

Hahahaha! Well yeah she was very unprofessional.