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[Bozorgmehr]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...


Below are 3 videos of a cyro-throw caster. Taken from the The Sentinel - The Turnip that WILL bleed for you (Guide) thread.

A sentinel can cast warps faster and more damaging than an adept can if you want to chose to emphasize warp explosions. He is simply a better caster with better durability than an adept.

Sentinels can use powers more often (Guardian) or powers will be more powerful (Raider + Power Armor); they can't have both. Difference is very small and hardly noticeable.

Sentinels have Tech Armor - Adepts can have same protection using Barrier; no difference in survivability. Yes, Sentinels can cast (a little) faster (again, only when using Guardian), but have less interesting powers to cast (no Singularity or Pull).

I prefer the more useful powers available to the Adept over the tiny advantage Sentinels have on cooldowns (I don't care using 9 (Adept) instead of 10 (Guardian Sentinel) Warps in same timeframe.

The Thisisme Cryo caster vid has nothing to do with Sentinels, Adepts can do the same: Remove defenses > use Mordin's (not Sentinel) Cryo Blast > use squadmates Pull (Adepts don't even need a squadmate for this) > and finish using Throw. Don't really see you point though it's a great vid.

Stasis does not compare well to what other powers can offer an adept. I'm certainly not saying it is not a viable or fun choice, just that it is not the choice that offers the most benefit to an adept and so it can hardly be called an adept "upgrade" or adept buff.

Agreed, Singularity is 95% of the time a better option - Stasis is only superior against YMIRs (it works on other enemies who are not affected by Singularity too, but they are dealt with easily and using a 12s cooldown power against Varren is not that effective)

It is also not the most optimum choice for a sentinel, but the sentinel can cast it more often than an adept can. Stasis doesn't really fit in well with the changes in gameplay that ME2 made. And to be honest I did not use it much in ME1.

Stasis can provide non-Adepts with useful CC ability that works against protected enemies - I consider Stasis to be one of the worst bonus powers for an Adept. It isn't better on Sentinels though; yes they can use it more often (Guardian) but their Stasis duration is 20% shorter compared to the Adept (Bastion). This makes Stasis a better option for Adept because of the 10% cd advantage (Sentinel) is less usefull compared to the 20% duration bonus (Adept)

[Mr_Raider]

Stasis has 6 second cooldown on shep.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
Sentinels have Tech Armor - Adepts can have same protection using Barrier; no difference in survivability. Yes, Sentinels can cast (a little) faster (again, only when using Guardian), but have less interesting powers to cast (no Singularity or Pull).

Ok, the adept takes barrier to be more survivable and the sentinel trumps him by taking Energy Drain which recharges his sheilds, strips enemy shields, and damages and stuns mechs. I find cyro to be pretty interesting and of course they can also have overload which can do quite interesting things.

The Thisisme Cryo caster vid has nothing to do with Sentinels, Adepts can do the same: Remove defenses > use Mordin's (not Sentinel) Cryo Blast > use squadmates Pull (Adepts don't even need a squadmate for this) > and finish using Throw. Don't really see you point though it's a great vid.

How does the sentinel video have nothing to do with sentinels? I chose the cyro-throw caster vids because the comment was made about cyro blast being difficult to use and throw not being viable. Throw and cyro are both short cooldowns for the sentinel and with his tech armor he can play very aggressively, especially when using energy drain to keep his tech armor up.

The sentinel does not have to rely on a squadmate for the cryo or the throw and his cyro will recharge quicker than Mordin's.

Agreed, Singularity is 95% of the time a better option - Stasis is only superior against YMIRs (it works on other enemies who are not affected by Singularity too, but they are dealt with easily and using a 12s cooldown power against Varren is not that effective)

Most of the time there is a convient place to hide and shoot the YMIR where the YMIR poses no threat to you (unless you don't duck down when he starts firing or run around a crate or whatever.) And of course you can't damage the YMIR when it is affected by stasis. So most of the time it is inefficient to use stasis against YMIRs.

Stasis can provide non-Adepts with useful CC ability that works against protected enemies - I consider Stasis to be one of the worst bonus powers for an Adept. It isn't better on Sentinels though; yes they can use it more often (Guardian) but their Stasis duration is 20% shorter compared to the Adept (Bastion). This makes Stasis a better option for Adept because of the 10% cd advantage (Sentinel) is less usefull compared to the 20% duration bonus (Adept)

I don't find Bastion to be particularly useful because the bonus to length of time for singularity and pull are active is not needed. Nemesis provides more damage. By taking Bastion the adept is sacrificing damage from his other powers to make an unneeded stasis last longer. Not a good trade off.

Oh, and regarding whether the superior cooldown of sentinels matters or not let me quote Sinosleep's calculations in this thread since I don't want to run through the numbers myself.

sentinel heavy warp 6 second CD with 30% reduction from passive and 20% reduction from upgrades equals 3 second CD not only that but if you go power armor route it's also got 15% damage increase

jack and samara both have pull on a 9 second CD by default they get 20% upgrade bonus but they both also get a 25% CD reduction bonus when you max their passive so they each have pull available every 4.95 seconds, or 5 seconds if you wanna round it up.

With your 3 second CD you WILL have a pull from Samara or Jack available each and every time you have warp on CD since you only need one of their pulls to detonate. Now looking at it the other way

adept pull is on a 3 second CD by default they get their 20% upgrade bonus and another 20% passive bonus to bring it down to 1.5 second CD

Thane and Miranda have warp, but heavy warp has a 12 second CD while unstable warp brings it down to 9. They get the 20% CD but neither of them has additional CD reduction so the max they can do is 1 warp every 7.2 seconds.

I'd rather have 2 Sentinel heavy warps every 7 some odd seconds than two squadmate unstable waprs every 7 some odd seconds.

[Kronner]

It is very efficient to use Stasis against a mech. For example Jacob's LM, in the end. Stasis the mech, kill everyone else in the meantime, mech falls on the ground and you get damage boost against it.

[Bozorgmehr]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

How does the sentinel video have nothing to do with sentinels? I chose the cyro-throw caster vids because the comment was made about cyro blast being difficult to use and throw not being viable. Throw and cyro are both short cooldowns for the sentinel and with his tech armor he can play very aggressively, especially when using energy drain to keep his tech armor up.

I think you misunderstood me, I meant Adepts can do exactly the same thing - it's not something limited to Sentinels, even Engineers can do this when bringing squadies with Pull and Throw.
I don't understand why Sentinels want to recharge their shields using ED - you want the Armor to go boom; knocking (unprotected) enemies down (that's what makes Tech Armor special). Why do you want ED and Overload? It's like Adepts using Reave or Vanguards using AP ammo - a waste.

The sentinel does not have to rely on a squadmate for the cryo or the throw and his cyro will recharge quicker than Mordin's.

Adepts don't have to rely on squadies to use Pull and Throw and with shorter cooldown. Mordin's Cryo Blast is on 4.5 s cd instead of the 9 s Throw/Pull cooldown. Can't see any real advantage for Sentinel here.

I don't find Bastion to be particularly useful because the bonus to length of time for singularity and pull are active is not needed. Nemesis provides more damage. By taking Bastion the adept is sacrificing damage from his other powers to make an unneeded stasis last longer. Not a good trade off.

Bastion is great due to the duration bonus. Singularity and Pull (and Stasis) last longer which is quite useful - it will hold powerful enemies 1-2 s longer. The damage bonus provided by Nemesis isn't that useful. Adept only has Warp to benefit, it doesn't improve other biotic powers at all.

Oh, and regarding whether the superior cooldown of sentinels matters or not let me quote Sinosleep's calculations in this thread since I don't want to run through the numbers myself.

Everything depends on playstyle not nanosecond cooldown bonuses. I knew about Sinosleep's vid and theory, but I ran through same part of Dantius Tower One with my Adept twice as fast though Sinosleep focuses on warpbombs not speed (neither did my Adept btw, but I did play much more aggressively). Again I don't see your point. Sentinels have a tiny reduction in cooldown or a tiny increase in damage (not both) - these differences are almost neglectable. Same with Sinosleeps argument that Heavy Warp is better than Unstable Warp, in almost all situations both will kill ragdolled enemies instantly so the extra damage of Heavy Warp is useless.

[lazuli]

Whenever I play a caster Sentinel, I find myself wishing again and again that I had access to Pull in my own build. So whenever I'm looking to play a strong Biotic, I choose the Adept. You could take away Singularity and the Adept would still be the only class able to start and finish its own Warp explosions. To me, that makes it the best Biotic.

[RGFrog]

Good point, Lazuli.

Stasis can be useful. There's no doubt about that. I used it a few times against the assari spectre which made switching to pistol and up close stripping her armor fairly easy.

But, there wasn't a point in the process where I thought that I couldn't do without the new power or that I would want it for myself over something else.

It's just not a buff. It's a cool new trick that changes some things up for a wide variety of classes. But it's in no way an upgrade. I'm hoping, though, what they learned from massaging the engine to make it work, though, will lead to more innovative additions leading up to me3.

[JaegerBane]

lazuli wrote...

Whenever I play a caster Sentinel, I find myself wishing again and again that I had access to Pull in my own build. So whenever I'm looking to play a strong Biotic, I choose the Adept. You could take away Singularity and the Adept would still be the only class able to start and finish its own Warp explosions. To me, that makes it the best Biotic.

This pretty much sums up why I prefer the Adept to all other classes - well, the fact that it has Warp Explosions and is able to almost fight like a boxer thanks to pull and throw.

I'm honestly not sure what I think of stasis. It's an interesting power that, undoubtedly, is useful due to it's ability to ignore defences - but that doesn't mean much for a class that has Singularity as it's class ability.

On the other hand, I was blown away by how effective this was on the Vanguard. A Vanguard with Stasis seems to be very much a fast-moving Adept that can't warp explode targets.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 09 septembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Kronner]

I went through Horizon today with Adept + Stasis and I had so much fun against the two Scions in the end lol. One in Stasis, second in Singularity. Poor guys barely moved

But I'd say other classes can benefit from Stasis just like Adept can so I do not consider this Adept exclusive buff.

[sinosleep]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Everything depends on playstyle not nanosecond cooldown bonuses. I knew about Sinosleep's vid and theory, but I ran through same part of Dantius Tower One with my Adept twice as fast though Sinosleep focuses on warpbombs not speed (neither did my Adept btw, but I did play much more aggressively). Again I don't see your point. Sentinels have a tiny reduction in cooldown or a tiny increase in damage (not both) - these differences are almost neglectable. Same with Sinosleeps argument that Heavy Warp is better than Unstable Warp, in almost all situations both will kill ragdolled enemies instantly so the extra damage of Heavy Warp is useless.

One video can't really be compared to another because we weren't going for the same thing so I don't really know what that particular comparison brings to the table. That vid was made to illustrate one thing and one thing only, with that squad combination you will have a pull available every time your warp is off CD and as such you should be able to get more warp bombs in per mission than an adept would.

With regards to the extra damage, I wouldn't call it useless. Sure it's overkill a lot of the time, but it's also a guarantee. You can be sure standard mobs will die and you can be sure that enemies caught in the blast will lose the entirety of their defenses. I've seen unstable warps unable to full strip defenses on the shielded enemies they inflict damage on as well.

[edit here] Would just like to add that at the end of the day Bozorgmehr is right, and styles make fights. The difference is small, I was just getting down to the pure numbers of it with regards to warp explosions.

Modifié par sinosleep, 09 septembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Bozorgmehr]

sinosleep wrote...

Would just like to add that at the end of the day Bozorgmehr is right, and styles make fights. The difference is small, I was just getting down to the pure numbers of it with regards to warp explosions.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make! You are right about everything you said and yes Sentinels can warpbomb faster though difference is very small - so small it is marginalized in-game. Sentinels are not 'better' casters than Adepts, just different (=what I tried to tell our Grumpy old Wizard friend  ).

I liked your video a lot, it really shows how deadly warp explosions can be, but to get most out of both Sentinel and Adept all of their abilities should be put into good use.

[Christina Norman]

Overall reaction to stasis seems to be quite positive so far. It adds a versatile new biotic ability that lets you instantly remove an enemy from combat.



While Stasis can be used for a variety of strategies, one great use is to remove particularly challenging enemies from combat in emergencies, or just to make combat easier. For this reason, I'll be using stasis on my upcoming adept/insanity playthrough. Personally I still die all the time on insanity, stasis is going to help me out a lot. I expect that other players will similarly find that stasis is valuable in taking on challenging playthroughs with whatever class/difficulty they find challenging.



I realize some of you guys find insanity pretty easy, and in that case I could see how stasis would not be that useful to you. If you're not generally in danger, if you don't need an "oh crap" button, that's a major use of stasis that doesn't match your playstyle. Others may find the game challenging, but may prefer to use their bonus power slot for pure offense, or a different defensive ability like barrier. This is expected. I wasn't trying to make Stasis some kind of super power that would invalidate all other bonus powers. Part of what makes bonus powers so cool is that the choice is so meaningful, and you can only make one bonus power choice at a time.



I also understand that some players interpreted my comments on twitter as having much more far reaching consequences than a cool new biotic bonus power. That's the drawback with communication -- some players will always read more into what you say than you intended. I'm going to continue to err on the side of communicating with you guys though!



I'll also be watching overall fan reactions to Stasis as that will have a big impact on whether or not it's in ME3.

[Kronner]

Christina Norman wrote...

I'll also be watching overall fan reactions to Stasis as that will have a big impact on whether or not it's in ME3.

Would it be possible to make Stasis impenetrable (so noone can shoot through it, Shepard could use it as cover, but enemies too) - it would add another strategic element to the gameplay imho.

Also, could you please tell us if the insane damage boost against enemy that just left Stasis and is falling to the ground is intentional?

For what it's worth, I really enjoy using Stasis and hope to see it in ME3.

Modifié par Kronner, 09 septembre 2010 - 09:07 .

[Walker White]

Christina Norman wrote...

I'll also be watching overall fan reactions to Stasis as that will have a big impact on whether or not it's in ME3.

Unless shockwave is redesigned to have better effectiveness (even if not damage-related) through defenses, I would much rather have this power on my Adept than shockwave.

[RGFrog]

Oh, don't take away Stasis. It's a great little bonus power that has many uses within all the classes.

The argument, for me at least, is whether or not it was the upgrade or "buff" that many were expecting.
That discussion aside, I think it's a great bonus, and useful in many ways. More to the point, it shows that there's still a lot that can be done with the game.

Stasis provides a great tactical advantage for those that play that way. Being able to lock up the enemy while you deal with the bullet fodder is good joojoo, wihtout a doubt.

It's not a necessery power for the Adept, but it does open up options for different play styles.

As i posted in another thread, I just went on another run through the DLC and used Liara to cast stasis on the Vanguard Spectre. Then I would run up and blast her with a fully charged GPS followed by melee, shot, melee mayhem. It was a lot of fun and I totally forgot to use my warps on her. That was as an adept. I'm looking forward to giving it a run on the Vanguard with the claymore this time

Yeah, I agree, Walker White. I'd like a shockwave that works like the Scion's or that Vanguard Assari Spectre's. I don't like having full barrier and getting that stripped and my being knocked out of cover by a power that I can use but doesn't work the same

Thanks joining the discussion, Ms. Norman.

Modifié par RGFrog, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:15 .

[Siegdrifa]

Christina Norman wrote...

Overall reaction to stasis seems to be quite positive so far. It adds a versatile new biotic ability that lets you instantly remove an enemy from combat.

While Stasis can be used for a variety of strategies, one great use is to remove particularly challenging enemies from combat in emergencies, or just to make combat easier. For this reason, I'll be using stasis on my upcoming adept/insanity playthrough. Personally I still die all the time on insanity, stasis is going to help me out a lot. I expect that other players will similarly find that stasis is valuable in taking on challenging playthroughs with whatever class/difficulty they find challenging.

I realize some of you guys find insanity pretty easy, and in that case I could see how stasis would not be that useful to you. If you're not generally in danger, if you don't need an "oh crap" button, that's a major use of stasis that doesn't match your playstyle. Others may find the game challenging, but may prefer to use their bonus power slot for pure offense, or a different defensive ability like barrier. This is expected. I wasn't trying to make Stasis some kind of super power that would invalidate all other bonus powers. Part of what makes bonus powers so cool is that the choice is so meaningful, and you can only make one bonus power choice at a time.

I also understand that some players interpreted my comments on twitter as having much more far reaching consequences than a cool new biotic bonus power. That's the drawback with communication -- some players will always read more into what you say than you intended. I'm going to continue to err on the side of communicating with you guys though!

I'll also be watching overall fan reactions to Stasis as that will have a big impact on whether or not it's in ME3.

I agree, while Stasis can appear not usefull for player who are used to play all the game in insanity, i have to admit that the first problem with an adept is his defence when i can't manage to keep ennemy at long / middle range.
Usualy, at close range or flanking ennemy with a protection still working, singularity / pull / throw can't help and mean you are going to die very soon, this is where stasis shine the most.
But i'm not sure i'll keep it since i'm used to deal without and how to keep ennemy at range.

But i'm glad that Bioware put a defensive power, because the adept is already a great predator in offence, since you force your ennemy to uncover, i was worry about that "buff", so great job! Stasis is fine as defence, good in strategic combat and do not make the player overpowered.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 10 septembre 2010 - 05:33 .

[numotsbane]

Christina Norman wrote...

I wasn't trying to make Stasis some kind of super power that would invalidate all other bonus powers.

Thats excellent, otherwise I would have wasted many, many hours of my life testing every other bonus power, only to have that knowledge become obsolete...

And I don't think the adept needed a massive buff anyway, its great as it is.

[JaegerBane]

RGFrog wrote...
Yeah, I agree, Walker White. I'd like a shockwave that works like the Scion's or that Vanguard Assari Spectre's. I don't like having full barrier and getting that stripped and my being knocked out of cover by a power that I can use but doesn't work the same

Thanks joining the discussion, Ms. Norman.

Personally I wish Shockwave had it's damage against defences boosted. That would at least make it worth bothering with on Insanity without overpowering it on Normal (which, let's be fair, it's not far off being).

[lazuli]

JaegerBane wrote...
Personally I wish Shockwave had it's damage against defences boosted. That would at least make it worth bothering with on Insanity without overpowering it on Normal (which, let's be fair, it's not far off being).

I agree with JaegerBane.  Shockwave could us some love.  

Speaking of Shockwave, I really liked how the Shadow Broker's Assassin employed it liberally.  I wouldn't mind introducing more enemies to the game with Shockwave, or giving it to Vanguard or Asari Commando bosses/midbosses.  It could be frustrating if it appeared on every Vanguard enemy though.  Giving it to Enyala, Wasea, and Gatatog Uvenk would be enough to shake things up.  Admittedly, the Enyala fight might be ten times harder if she were popping us out of cover every three seconds.

[Bozorgmehr]

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Personally I wish Shockwave had it's damage against defences boosted. That would at least make it worth bothering with on Insanity without overpowering it on Normal (which, let's be fair, it's not far off being).

I agree with JaegerBane.  Shockwave could us some love.  

Speaking of Shockwave, I really liked how the Shadow Broker's Assassin employed it liberally.  I wouldn't mind introducing more enemies to the game with Shockwave, or giving it to Vanguard or Asari Commando bosses/midbosses.  It could be frustrating if it appeared on every Vanguard enemy though.  Giving it to Enyala, Wasea, and Gatatog Uvenk would be enough to shake things up.  Admittedly, the Enyala fight might be ten times harder if she were popping us out of cover every three seconds.

I agree with the both of you. Tela Vasir's Shockwave even works when in cover (at least that's what happened to me) - Scion's Shockwave doesn't hurt you behind cover. Overall a pretty cool and dangerous power for enemies, too bad Vasir is the only one able to use it. If Shep's Shockwave works similar, it would be an awesome power on Insanity.

[Arhka]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Personally I wish Shockwave had it's damage against defences boosted. That would at least make it worth bothering with on Insanity without overpowering it on Normal (which, let's be fair, it's not far off being).

I agree with JaegerBane.  Shockwave could us some love.  

Speaking of Shockwave, I really liked how the Shadow Broker's Assassin employed it liberally.  I wouldn't mind introducing more enemies to the game with Shockwave, or giving it to Vanguard or Asari Commando bosses/midbosses.  It could be frustrating if it appeared on every Vanguard enemy though.  Giving it to Enyala, Wasea, and Gatatog Uvenk would be enough to shake things up.  Admittedly, the Enyala fight might be ten times harder if she were popping us out of cover every three seconds.

I agree with the both of you. Tela Vasir's Shockwave even works when in cover (at least that's what happened to me) - Scion's Shockwave doesn't hurt you behind cover. Overall a pretty cool and dangerous power for enemies, too bad Vasir is the only one able to use it. If Shep's Shockwave works similar, it would be an awesome power on Insanity.

I think it does, but you need Improved Shockwave for maximum effect, because Shep's can't come close to Jack's Heavy Shockwave.

[PsyrenY]

numotsbane wrote...

Thats excellent, otherwise I would have wasted many, many hours of my life testing every other bonus power, only to have that knowledge become obsolete...
And I don't think the adept needed a massive buff anyway, its great as it is.

Would you? I daresay that no matter how good Stasis was, there would be many players that would not choose it. Some players choose their bonus from an RP standpoint, and Stasis being not just a biotic ability but an advanced biotic ability would give pause to any RP-focused non-Adept. So I don't think your tests would have been wasted anyway.

And I for one am VERY satisfied with Stasis; a lockdown that ignores defenses and takes out heavies (Scions, Harbinger, even YMIRs!) on Insanity is going to be an amazing addition to my Adept.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Siegdrifa]

Optimystic_X wrote...

And I for one am VERY satisfied with Stasis; a lockdown that ignores defenses and takes out heavies (Scions, Harbinger, even YMIRs!) on Insanity is going to be an amazing addition to my Adept.

I tested in Insanity agains Harbinger, stasis have no effect.

[NICKjnp]

Arhka wrote...

Bozorgmehr wrote...

lazuli wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...
Personally I wish Shockwave had it's damage against defences boosted. That would at least make it worth bothering with on Insanity without overpowering it on Normal (which, let's be fair, it's not far off being).

I agree with JaegerBane.  Shockwave could us some love.  

Speaking of Shockwave, I really liked how the Shadow Broker's Assassin employed it liberally.  I wouldn't mind introducing more enemies to the game with Shockwave, or giving it to Vanguard or Asari Commando bosses/midbosses.  It could be frustrating if it appeared on every Vanguard enemy though.  Giving it to Enyala, Wasea, and Gatatog Uvenk would be enough to shake things up.  Admittedly, the Enyala fight might be ten times harder if she were popping us out of cover every three seconds.

I agree with the both of you. Tela Vasir's Shockwave even works when in cover (at least that's what happened to me) - Scion's Shockwave doesn't hurt you behind cover. Overall a pretty cool and dangerous power for enemies, too bad Vasir is the only one able to use it. If Shep's Shockwave works similar, it would be an awesome power on Insanity.

I think it does, but you need Improved Shockwave for maximum effect, because Shep's can't come close to Jack's Heavy Shockwave.

area reave and heavy shockwave on a vanguard is a very lethal combination.  Nobody believes me... because I don't have a way of posting videos... but if you max all biotic and bonus powers and leave one point in incendiary ammo then you have a very fearsome vanguard (especially if you have squad mates give ammo powers... Grunt).  Take assault rifle as bonus weapon and use the scimitar.  Biotic Vanguard Shepard's catch phrase should be... I WILL DESTROY YOU!

[Matterialize]

Siegdrifa wrote...
I tested in Insanity agains Harbinger, stasis have no effect.

I can also confirm this. But it works fine on every other miniboss from what I can tell, even Geth Primes.