I was thinking that there has to be a way to do/use ambush tactics in NWN2 (Specifically SoZ, but generally any OM situation). And something beyond simply "use X trap type to escape".
I was thinking that if some option on the OM like "Camp" could be generated only as an "Ambush". You would be in a fixed location but still potentially visible just as camping or walking around. Then when monsters notice the player as a valid target, combat would be initiated as per normal. But, if the party gets a Hide roll, they are give an extra 30-60 seconds at the beginning of combat to set up (Buff/Trap/summon/position, whatever) before the monsters appear. And maybe even reduce AGRO on the monsters until they spot the party (thus allowing for sneak attacks etc...
I am not a coder but what do you guys think? Is this doable? Are there any other ideas or improvements to this? Or any reasons why this might be a dumb idea?
Ambush anyone?
Débuté par
Thorne_underfoot
, sept. 07 2010 10:54
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#2
Posté 07 septembre 2010 - 11:23
painofdungeoneternal
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its called encounter distance
have em walking up on the road from the distance once you go into the scene, you just need a larger area to do it.
That would be like when i played older versions of D&D.
have em walking up on the road from the distance once you go into the scene, you just need a larger area to do it.
That would be like when i played older versions of D&D.
#3
Posté 07 septembre 2010 - 11:56
Thorne_underfoot
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Not quite sure I explained it well enough then. Or maybe i did. Just saying that in most encounters in SoZ, my party appears and the monsters appear at the same time. They rush me and I rush them. There is very little "Ambush" or Setup about it. I was imagining the ability to set up an ambush in ernest. Position my party members. Lay down some traps. Maybe even buff up. Then the monsters appear. Even if there was a button click to say "Go". Something like that. As it is, I see no real value in abilities like sneak or set traps on OM combat situations. and the obnoxious amount of traps that you do find in game just screams that there needs to be a better use of them. Just fishing around for ways to rectify that.
#4
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 12:15
I_Raps
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Make bigger encounter areas with some blocking terrain in between.
Gaining surprise rounds is easily doable in the script for the encounter - in fact it's already incorporated in a way (the Bluff/Intimidate checks).
Gaining surprise rounds is easily doable in the script for the encounter - in fact it's already incorporated in a way (the Bluff/Intimidate checks).
Modifié par I_Raps, 08 septembre 2010 - 12:16 .
#5
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 03:58
Lugaid of the Red Stripes
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My mod below has some PC-led ambushes in it, though I don't have SoZ so I can't speak for the overland map mechanics.
The way I set it up was with a road and convoys of NPCs that would periodically spawn in and travel the length of the road. The area had some natural chokepoints, and there were some other ways to prepare the killzone, but basically you just found a nice place to hide, wait for the convoy to arrive, and pick an oppurtune moment to spring the ambush.
I originally had it set up so the convoys would travel the length of the road, spanning several areas, but since they could take 15 minutes to complete a round trip, I found it necessary to spawn in new convoys a minute or so after the player entered the ambush area, to keep the player from waiting too long.
In an overland map situation, I could imagine a NPC caravan or patrol walking along a road, and then the PC party rushing ahead to intercept them at a choice spot. For every thing to work though, you need to have meaningful terrain, predictable NPC AI, and special weapons like traps that make ambushes easier to fight and win than standard encounters.
Historically, ambushes work well when they catch the enemies unawares or otherwise unprepared for combat (e.g. strung out in a march column instead of formed up into battle formation, or stuck in unfavorable terrain), the ambushed force is outnumbered, or when the sudden shock of the ambush makes certain weapons unusually effective. Machine guns, for example, are normally just good for suppressive fire, but in an ambush they can easily catch units out in the open and mow them down. Mines, mortars, and artillery are likewise much more effective if the attacker knows in advance where the enemy is going to be. Of course the main strength of an ambush is morale; an ambushed force may be disoriented, incohesive, or otherwise incapable of reforming and launching a counterattack or orderly retreat. NWN2 doesn't model morale very well, nor does it model terrain effects or unit formations, readiness, or cohension. So to model an ambush you have to fake a lot of this stuff, or make up for it in some way. If you don't, you just end up with another encounter.
The way I set it up was with a road and convoys of NPCs that would periodically spawn in and travel the length of the road. The area had some natural chokepoints, and there were some other ways to prepare the killzone, but basically you just found a nice place to hide, wait for the convoy to arrive, and pick an oppurtune moment to spring the ambush.
I originally had it set up so the convoys would travel the length of the road, spanning several areas, but since they could take 15 minutes to complete a round trip, I found it necessary to spawn in new convoys a minute or so after the player entered the ambush area, to keep the player from waiting too long.
In an overland map situation, I could imagine a NPC caravan or patrol walking along a road, and then the PC party rushing ahead to intercept them at a choice spot. For every thing to work though, you need to have meaningful terrain, predictable NPC AI, and special weapons like traps that make ambushes easier to fight and win than standard encounters.
Historically, ambushes work well when they catch the enemies unawares or otherwise unprepared for combat (e.g. strung out in a march column instead of formed up into battle formation, or stuck in unfavorable terrain), the ambushed force is outnumbered, or when the sudden shock of the ambush makes certain weapons unusually effective. Machine guns, for example, are normally just good for suppressive fire, but in an ambush they can easily catch units out in the open and mow them down. Mines, mortars, and artillery are likewise much more effective if the attacker knows in advance where the enemy is going to be. Of course the main strength of an ambush is morale; an ambushed force may be disoriented, incohesive, or otherwise incapable of reforming and launching a counterattack or orderly retreat. NWN2 doesn't model morale very well, nor does it model terrain effects or unit formations, readiness, or cohension. So to model an ambush you have to fake a lot of this stuff, or make up for it in some way. If you don't, you just end up with another encounter.
#6
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 05:17
dunniteowl
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Which store in your mod has the machine guns, mortars and mines, Lugaid? I wanna shop there!
dno
dno
#7
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 06:31
Haplose
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Like I_Raps already wrote, the enemy delay mechanic is already included and working in SoZ.
Just not trough use of Hide (which prevents the enemy from noticing your party entirely) but through Bluff/Intimidate skillchecks (don't remember which).
Monsters still appear together with the party on the encounter map, but stand idly for some time giving you time to prepare after a succefull skillcheck in the conversation. (one was to delay them and the other to lower their AC, as far as I remember).
But yeah, Lugaid's module is really best suited for ambushes. And all the other Rangerly tricks. I strongly recommend it to anyone who likes to play Rangers. What's surprising, even archery doesn't suck there. It actually rocked, when I played with a Ranger/AA. Worked better then a dual-wielding Ranger.
Just not trough use of Hide (which prevents the enemy from noticing your party entirely) but through Bluff/Intimidate skillchecks (don't remember which).
Monsters still appear together with the party on the encounter map, but stand idly for some time giving you time to prepare after a succefull skillcheck in the conversation. (one was to delay them and the other to lower their AC, as far as I remember).
But yeah, Lugaid's module is really best suited for ambushes. And all the other Rangerly tricks. I strongly recommend it to anyone who likes to play Rangers. What's surprising, even archery doesn't suck there. It actually rocked, when I played with a Ranger/AA. Worked better then a dual-wielding Ranger.
#8
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 05:52
Thorne_underfoot
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I guess what I am really saying is that I never feel like I planned the ambush (i.e. highwaymen style). It's all a random encounter and even if you get a few extra seconds of low agro, I just don't feel like that is a true party driven ambush. I am willing to deal with a little down time to wait after setup even. But that may be just me.
I am currently reading the "Change" novels by Stirling and he has some really good ambush scenes in the early books. That is the type of thing I would love to do. You set up your archers or pike men or whatever. Lay some traps to slow down your opponents response time. And then lead your prey into the "Kill Zone". But basically you do anything and everything you can to increase your advantage and remove your opponents ability to even swing at you before they die.
Maybe it is the way I play (i.e. not as well as others) but I never get the feeling that any encounter in the OM is anything different no matter what my skill roles are. Appear on screen. My fighters go charging off to attack. The monsters come charging at me. Clash. Wizzie spells. Finish off the enemy (or they me). End. And if I have a Rogue or Ranger in party lead, I just think I should have better options is all.
Anyway, gonna try out the module recommended above and see. Hopefully will be what I am looking for. Thanks all.
I am currently reading the "Change" novels by Stirling and he has some really good ambush scenes in the early books. That is the type of thing I would love to do. You set up your archers or pike men or whatever. Lay some traps to slow down your opponents response time. And then lead your prey into the "Kill Zone". But basically you do anything and everything you can to increase your advantage and remove your opponents ability to even swing at you before they die.
Maybe it is the way I play (i.e. not as well as others) but I never get the feeling that any encounter in the OM is anything different no matter what my skill roles are. Appear on screen. My fighters go charging off to attack. The monsters come charging at me. Clash. Wizzie spells. Finish off the enemy (or they me). End. And if I have a Rogue or Ranger in party lead, I just think I should have better options is all.
Anyway, gonna try out the module recommended above and see. Hopefully will be what I am looking for. Thanks all.
Modifié par Thorne_underfoot, 08 septembre 2010 - 05:54 .
#9
Posté 08 septembre 2010 - 06:19
M. Rieder
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Haplose wrote...
But yeah, Lugaid's module is really best suited for ambushes. And all the other Rangerly tricks. I strongly recommend it to anyone who likes to play Rangers. What's surprising, even archery doesn't suck there. It actually rocked, when I played with a Ranger/AA. Worked better then a dual-wielding Ranger.
I second that. If you want to get ideas for ambushing and other trickery and such, play Last of the Danaan.
If you wanted to script it, you could have a sub-area in the encounter area that confers the invisibility spell on the party if they succeed in their hide check. This allows for buffing and will go away when the party attacks.
It is a very interesting idea, this ambush addition. I like it.
