177 réponses à ce sujet

[Spartas Husky]

Tazzmission wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

......I hate being right... although I aint right just yet, but.... hopefully we dont see ME, call to specters or w/e lol

i think your getting a bit to worked up my friend. if anything what you suggested could happen in future mass effect games but i think and i hope im right that me3 may keep the me2 system and diolauge

no, I am getting worried about future games.... about ME3... prolly nothig to worry about, but if Bioware's current trend is anything to be careful about... expect the unexpected, for better or worse when it comes to Bio.

On future spin off games same thing, ME is roleplaying with action, not action with w/e roleplaying they could put in at last minute.

So I am worried about future ME releases, ont ME3 so much but what comes afterwards.

[tmelange]

Mike2640 wrote...

Sigh, Why is dialogue the red-headed step-child these days? The gunplay shouldn't be a priority for Bioware. No one bought the game for the action. Gears does it better and has multiplayer. They're shooting themselves in the foot by going after a demographic that is already covered by developers who can do action much better than they can.

I think they truly think people ARE buying it for the gunplay.

At this point, I don't know if they're right or wrong. As much as I enjoy the ME franchise, it has always been lacking something for me. Not enough for me not to buy it, but enough for me to feel it. I can't really tell anymore *what* BW is hoping to accomplish in the long run. I wish them success, though.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Mike2640 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

They certainly achieved that in the Liara DLC. There was waaaaay too much combat, and little dialogue. And out of the little dialogue you have, 50% of it is automatic dialogue. And usually when you do get the choice to select your dialogue, you only get 2 choices. And only one of the two progresses the conversation, thus ruling out the need to even choose.

-Polite

Sigh, Why is dialogue the red-headed step-child these days? The gunplay shouldn't be a priority for Bioware. No one bought the game for the action. Gears does it better and has multiplayer. They're shooting themselves in the foot by going after a demographic that is already covered by developers who can do action much better than they can.

Now that EA owns Bioware, they want to direct the ME franchise to the biggest fanbase, shooter fanboys. EA makes games like Medal of Honor, Bad Company, and a lot more shooter typed games. They're going to milk ME dry. It was a sad sad day when they acquired bioware. Don't be surprised if a Mass Effect game starts to come out every year. I can see it now. Mass Effect 4: Carbon January 2013. Mass Effect 5: Underground January 2014. Mass Effect 6: Undercover January 2016, and the list goes on and on.... Needless to say, my expectations for Bioware's quality game's have been shot.

-Polite

[Tocquevillain]

Mike2640 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

They certainly achieved that in the Liara DLC. There was waaaaay too much combat, and little dialogue. And out of the little dialogue you have, 50% of it is automatic dialogue. And usually when you do get the choice to select your dialogue, you only get 2 choices. And only one of the two progresses the conversation, thus ruling out the need to even choose.

-Polite

Sigh, Why is dialogue the red-headed step-child these days? The gunplay shouldn't be a priority for Bioware. No one bought the game for the action. Gears does it better and has multiplayer. They're shooting themselves in the foot by going after a demographic that is already covered by developers who can do action much better than they can.

I think you're missing the point. There was a fair amount of dialogue, but a lot of it went unspoken, in the way the characters acted. That's what Bioware is aiming for; quality acting and quality dialogue that heightens the drama. For me, it was very emotionally satisfying, the characters had all these little behavioural and emotional cues that came through perfectly.

[Mike2640]

Tocquevillain wrote...

Mike2640 wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

They certainly achieved that in the Liara DLC. There was waaaaay too much combat, and little dialogue. And out of the little dialogue you have, 50% of it is automatic dialogue. And usually when you do get the choice to select your dialogue, you only get 2 choices. And only one of the two progresses the conversation, thus ruling out the need to even choose.

-Polite

Sigh, Why is dialogue the red-headed step-child these days? The gunplay shouldn't be a priority for Bioware. No one bought the game for the action. Gears does it better and has multiplayer. They're shooting themselves in the foot by going after a demographic that is already covered by developers who can do action much better than they can.

I think you're missing the point. There was a fair amount of dialogue, but a lot of it went unspoken, in the way the characters acted. That's what Bioware is aiming for; quality acting and quality dialogue that heightens the drama. For me, it was very emotionally satisfying, the characters had all these little behavioural and emotional cues that came through perfectly.

I hope you're right.
Geh, I choose one of the Bioware dlcs to buy and I pick the one that was bugged all to hell... Atleast I have something to look forward to come payday.

[FlyingWalrus]

People and their theatrical, emotional knee-jerk reactions.

If you'll take the time to go back and see, that this was pretty much their goal with ME2 and the more "cinematic" way that conversations were approached.

The way the camera pans and zooms.

The way that things are occurring in shots between words.

You're taking the "moving away from dialogue" comment so out of context it's ridiculous. I'm sure what he means is they want to move away from static dialogue. How many movies do you remember fondly in which the characters spent fifty percent of their time talking, arms folded and face to face with one another?

I think DA2 is moving in this direction as well. While DA:O was a fantastic game, there's no denying that it did feel dated at a lot of junctures.

And the statistics are only there as anecdotal conversation starters, I'm sure.

[Mike2640]

Well can you really blame us? For those that didn't care for the direction Mass Effect 2 went, the idea of further changes to the formula make us wary, to say the least.
You do have a point though in that we did seem to jump to the "Streamline" conclusion, and that his line was probably taken out of context.

Modifié par Mike2640, 08 septembre 2010 - 02:21 .

[Tocquevillain]

FlyingWalrus wrote...
How many movies do you remember fondly in which the characters spent fifty percent of their time talking, arms folded and face to face with one another?

You know, this made me think of the perfect example. Dialogue in games used to be like the opening scene of Inglorious Basterds, except that in the game, the word were all you had to go on, while in the film, you had their behaviour and tone.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Whatever Bioware does after ME3 and DA2/3, I suspect (with no evidence!) it will combine the Paragon/Renegade choices with the DA2 "clarifying icons."  So say Miranda is whipping out her pistol in a cut scene and aiming it at a trecherous Blue Sun operative.  The animation would slow down (not pause) and three or more option would pop up on the screen.  An open hand (for peaceful), a grin with fangs (for eeeeevil), and a for neutral.  Each choice would change what Shepard does next...  Pushing Miranda's gun off target, grinning and smirking at the operative, or laying a hand on Miranda's shoulder and saying "wait."  This way, you tie the player into "movie" without having to go through the inane dialogue tree.

I think that's what he meant by getting away from dialogue.  And please, let that happen.  I enjoyed the mid-mission conversations (car conversations, walking and talking conversations essentially) in ME2 a thousand time more than the ones where you walk over to someone and 1,2,1,3,2,2,1,5 them until they're empty of chat branches.  Dull stuff man.  You don't get to know a chick by sitting her down at a table and asking her questions one after the other.  You go some place with her and talk about what you're doing.  Things shake out.

TLDR:  **** old school dialogue.  It is boring ass and boring.  DIE.

[Rogue Eagle]

Anakin you're breaking my heart!



Dialogue keeps me playing mass effect. Hell the game could be all politics and I'd still find it fun as long as I got my comedy dialogue options.

[AngryFrozenWater]

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 septembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[FlyingWalrus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

I thought RPG fans were smart.

[LilKis1]

The quote doesn't really make sense. What is he trying to say!? I want more story and dialouge in my mass effect games.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

This really pisses me off.

[AngryFrozenWater]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

I thought RPG fans were smart.

No, no, no. You got that wrong. Recently BW believes that RPG fans are afraid of change. That's not very smart, is it?

[FlyingWalrus]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

I thought RPG fans were smart.

No, no, no. You got that wrong. Recently BW believes that RPG fans are afraid of change. That's not very smart, is it?

Are you?

[AngryFrozenWater]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

I thought RPG fans were smart.

No, no, no. You got that wrong. Recently BW believes that RPG fans are afraid of change. That's not very smart, is it?

Are you?

Nah. RPGs were never static and always have been subject to change. So I am used to change. I like it. But taking RPG elements out without replacing them for something else doesn't do much other than transforming the game into a pure shooter. And don't get me wrong. I love shooters. I am an FPS fan and have some TPS games as well. But if I want to play a pure shooter then there are much better ones than ME2.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 septembre 2010 - 02:47 .

[Mike2640]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

tmelange wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.

I think this is the bottom line. And watching it play out these couple of years with Bioware is both fascinating...and tragic. 

I wish more people would buy video games (especially RPGs) so that budget considerations would be moot.

If BW wants a greater audience then it is time to be innovative. The only recent innovation shown is that BW cuts lots of RPG elements. And when we don't like that they tell us that we are afraid of change. I wonder if it is really us (the RPG fans) who are afraid of change. I believe that the one who is afraid the most is BioWare itself. Instead of dreaming up something new they try to transform ME into a pure shooter. Known and safe territory. If these RPG elements are not replaced by something else then all that is left is a shooter with a story. That sounds like the average shooter to me. An act of desperation. Fear.

I thought RPG fans were smart.

No, no, no. You got that wrong. Recently BW believes that RPG fans are afraid of change. That's not very smart, is it?

Are you?

Nah. RPGs were never static and always have been subject to change. So I am used to change. I like it. But taking RPG elements out without replacing them for something else doesn't do much other than transforming the game into a pure shooter. And don't get me wrong. I love shooters. I am an FPS fan and have some TPS games as well. But if I want to play a pure shooter then there are much better ones than ME2.

Pretty much this. People who want a good shooter have plenty of better options than ME2. And now with CDProject getting some serious acclaim with the Witcher Series, and Obsidian slowly getting it's groove back the people wanting a deeper RPG experience may have better options too.

[FlyingWalrus]

For an always flowing medium, RPGs are rather rigidly defined by their "fans," aren't they?

And yet here you are, dogmatically adhering to these so-called "RPG elements" which are more like "RPG tropes" as a foundation for criticism of what was done differently.

[tmelange]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Whatever Bioware does after ME3 and DA2/3, I suspect (with no evidence!) it will combine the Paragon/Renegade choices with the DA2 "clarifying icons."  So say Miranda is whipping out her pistol in a cut scene and aiming it at a trecherous Blue Sun operative.  The animation would slow down (not pause) and three or more option would pop up on the screen.  An open hand (for peaceful), a grin with fangs (for eeeeevil), and a for neutral.  Each choice would change what Shepard does next...  Pushing Miranda's gun off target, grinning and smirking at the operative, or laying a hand on Miranda's shoulder and saying "wait."  This way, you tie the player into "movie" without having to go through the inane dialogue tree.

I think that's what he meant by getting away from dialogue.  And please, let that happen.  I enjoyed the mid-mission conversations (car conversations, walking and talking conversations essentially) in ME2 a thousand time more than the ones where you walk over to someone and 1,2,1,3,2,2,1,5 them until they're empty of chat branches.  Dull stuff man.  You don't get to know a chick by sitting her down at a table and asking her questions one after the other.  You go some place with her and talk about what you're doing.  Things shake out.

TLDR:  **** old school dialogue.  It is boring ass and boring.  DIE.

This sounds like what they'd likely be aiming for. Maybe it will work and be more cost effective. I personally like the dialogue tree. I never thought it was boring.

[Mike2640]

FlyingWalrus wrote...

For an always flowing medium, RPGs are rather rigidly defined by their "fans," aren't they?
And yet here you are, dogmatically adhering to these so-called "RPG elements" which are more like "RPG tropes" as a foundation for criticism of what was done differently.

Why is it that when it comes to RPGs it's  dogmatic, but not for shooters? Shooters have been more or less doing the same thing since Wolfenstien, but no one is saying they're stuck in the past?

[xlavaina]

tmelange wrote...

 *scratches head* Now it all becomes clear:

"More and more we're trying to create something dynamic and exciting like a really great movie and we're trying to get away from dialogue, though even a movie has conversations." -- Casey Hudson

http://pc.ign.com/ar.../1118657p2.html

WOOOAH bad idea Bioware... 

[LenaMarie]

And Bioware said being bought out by EA wouldn't change them like everyone else. I call BS, Bioware is selling out more and more.

[FlyingWalrus]

Mike2640 wrote...

FlyingWalrus wrote...

For an always flowing medium, RPGs are rather rigidly defined by their "fans," aren't they?
And yet here you are, dogmatically adhering to these so-called "RPG elements" which are more like "RPG tropes" as a foundation for criticism of what was done differently.

Why is it that when it comes to RPGs it's  dogmatic, but not for shooters? Shooters have been more or less doing the same thing since Wolfenstien, but no one is saying they're stuck in the past?

Because, for such a simply-named genre as "role playing games," the fans sure are hard to please. All it takes is one glance at one of the most bile-filled corners of the Internet, RPGFan, to realize this.

Everyone is stuck on "systems" and "mechanics" rather than what makes an RPG an RPG at its core, and that is assuming the persona of a character and then dictating the decisions that drive the narrative. As long as this goal is accomplished, it matters little what other mechanics come into play. This is the same reason that many WRPG fans will quickly write off JRPGs in the same breath.

"Shooters" as a genre tend to be more straightforward, but you see even they branch out. That's why you have your Unreal Tournament fans, your Halo fans, and now your Modern Warfare fans; none of whom can agree on anything except, "Explosions rule, dude."

LenaMarie wrote...

And Bioware said being bought out by EA wouldn't change them like
everyone else. I call BS, Bioware is selling out more and more.

Yes. Dragon Age: Origins was such a sellout. Goddamn you, EA, for changing BioWare's development ethos!

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 08 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .