177 réponses à ce sujet

[Ch40sFox]

SwobyJ wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

here is the full thing from the article


Obviously with a game like Mass Effect we're trying to capture the sense of continuity and the cinematic experience. More and more we're trying to create something dynamic and exciting like a really great movie and we're trying to get away from dialogue, though even a movie has conversations. This set of decisions we make for how you would experience that and the fact that we have a dialogue system and things like that, we're kind of assuming and hoping that we're right in that people are interested in this kind of experience."

Is that like a oxymoron or something? They want to get away from dialouge....yet they want to have "conversations."

No, it isn't.

I love KOTOR, but I always thought it was silly, ridiculous that they would stop in the middle of nowhere, stand straightly, and speak calmly for over 5 minutes about one singular aspect of their culture that had nothing to do with where they were.

If we can have more character, setting, plot content with conversations, that would be great.

If Shadow Broker is the new standard, count me in.

Thats one thing I felt was akward about RPG's and made people shy away from them..... common sense.

It doesnt make sense for people to stand out in the open in one place and talk about stuff like that.... it just doesnt happen. People get to know each other over time, with little tidbits of personality here and there, its why people are so offset when you ask personal questions upfront, but people youve known for years, offer it up without you even asking.

Its common sense.

Which is what I think made Shadow Broker so good.... they didnt stop while on the middle of doing something INCREDIBLY important and chat. It happened here and there, and alot more later, which was very appropriate.

If Shadow Broker is the new standard (with the addition of other characters speaking as well) count me in. I grow tired of hour long cutscenes with things that couldve easily happened within the span of 5 minutes in game.

Thats what he's talking about..... less, "Why are they doing this?" coupled with less feeling like you arent involved, and more conversation tidbits on the go, more later while appropriate, and more in game moments.

[Pocketgb]

Christmas Ape wrote...


Maybe the problem is we're not jumping to enough conclusions.
I say this spells the death of the video game industry as a whole, replaced entirely by going outside and actually shooting at each other. Who's with me!?

SIGNED

[Amyntas]

My fear is that the statement is nothing but a fancy justification for cutting costs by using less voice actors. In-game cinematics can be created without a giant budget, but voice actors are an expensive investment.

[Eradyn]

Burdokva wrote...

Here goes the round again, a BioWare rep says something that only confirms the fears of some people of Mass Effect being dumbed down on the finishing lines, other jump in to defend said BioWare person, people start flaming each other...

Wouldn't it be far simpler if they didn't explain things out of context and at least try to make it clear what they intend to do with Mass Effect 3? Honestly, it's their right to do whatever, even if it becomes the most moronic, mindless shooter without a single dialogue. Simple.

But just be straight about it - are you going for more RPG or more shooter experience? More action or more dialogue? More import-heavy or a standalone experience? Each successive interview contradicts the previous and I'm tired of all this guesswork.

Cheers to all, don't flaming on me now, please. Thanks.

Their spokespeople do have an unfortunate tendency to talk like politicians. Straight talk is more appreciated, BW, when you make statements as you did in that interview.  You don't have to drop all your secrets and spoilers, but what you do reveal, be clear about it.  Enough with the double-talk, enough with the veiled answers.  Straight up say: Yes, no, we're not sure, maybe, we can't say, etc.

[havoc373]

God if anything i want more dialogue. Or atleast a perfect balance between action and dialogue.

Also i thnk the reason the soldier is the most played class is that it can use the most weapons. Powera are vreat and all but alot of the simpler players would rather not bother and just use all weapons rather than Powers. At least thats my theory

[Throw_this_away]

only 15% of people skipped dialogue. so even the shooter crowd that did grunts mission and played soldiers with their male sheps seemed to appreciate dialogue.

[Minister of Sound]

This is what I was talking about since ME2 was released. This is what happens when everyone defends ME2 having far too many times when Shepard speaks without prompt.



"Be careful what you wish for, you might get it."

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Meh, to be honest it kinda fits with a lot of the things they have been doing. Honestly, since its ME, I dont care quite as much since its never been a massive strong point for rich written dialogue. Theyve always played on the cinematic aspect of conversation.



That, and that the kind of "we want to innovate" ideas that suspisciously resemble catering to the widest array of idiot frat boy shooter fans arent exactly a new thing for Bioware.



I mean I started noticing it early in ME2s marketing after EA took over.



If Bioware want to go towards a typical shooter seperated only by cutscenes and add in competative multiplayer, I wish they would do it without all the hyperbole and general BSing.

[Mrxknown]

Hathur wrote...

Woa.. roughly 80% of people played as male shep.. that surprised me (not in a pleasant way) since I found fem shep's voice acting far stronger in terms of line delivery.

Also, most played class was soldier - more than all other classes combined.. that's depressing

And my favorite class is the least played.. Engineer

Agreed, I'm an Engineer as well. It's a fun class, I just wish there was dialogue based on the class you chose.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

tmelange wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Whatever Bioware does after ME3 and DA2/3, I suspect (with no evidence!) it will combine the Paragon/Renegade choices with the DA2 "clarifying icons."  So say Miranda is whipping out her pistol in a cut scene and aiming it at a trecherous Blue Sun operative.  The animation would slow down (not pause) and three or more option would pop up on the screen.  An open hand (for peaceful), a grin with fangs (for eeeeevil), and a for neutral.  Each choice would change what Shepard does next...  Pushing Miranda's gun off target, grinning and smirking at the operative, or laying a hand on Miranda's shoulder and saying "wait."  This way, you tie the player into "movie" without having to go through the inane dialogue tree.

I think that's what he meant by getting away from dialogue.  And please, let that happen.  I enjoyed the mid-mission conversations (car conversations, walking and talking conversations essentially) in ME2 a thousand time more than the ones where you walk over to someone and 1,2,1,3,2,2,1,5 them until they're empty of chat branches.  Dull stuff man.  You don't get to know a chick by sitting her down at a table and asking her questions one after the other.  You go some place with her and talk about what you're doing.  Things shake out.

TLDR:  **** old school dialogue.  It is boring ass and boring.  DIE.

This sounds like what they'd likely be aiming for. Maybe it will work and be more cost effective. I personally like the dialogue tree. I never thought it was boring.

I think it will work and it will only add to the story.  The scene Shepard has on Tali's mission, when you're pinned down with the marine and talking over what's going on, or when you're in the car with Garrus going to the port to meet his former comrade...  Those are the kinds of dialogue I'm looking for.  They're cinematic and they're fun.  You stay in the story without breaking out of it.  Compare those to the tree convos in the Normandy or Dragon Age's base camp...  There's just no comparison to me.  The cinematic stuff is endlessly more fun.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I hope to God he didn't actually mean it, or was just trying to say he wants more "interactive" dialog.

[ExtremeOne]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

I hope to God he didn't actually mean it, or was just trying to say he wants more "interactive" dialog.

  

it sounded pretty clear what he meant  

[Spartas Husky]

the stats say most people played soldier... yeah Id oubt that is the same for ME1 when you could use all the weapons.



give Sentinel, vanguard, and Engineer, assault rifles, and snipers, and I bet your life they go on par with soldier.



only reason my neighbor and me dont play sentinel and vanguard so much is:

A. vanguard in ME2 turned into sentinel.... and sentinel is awesome if it weren't because it doesn't have ammo powers

B. vanguard charge... some like it... i dont, vanguard is suppose to be biotic soldier, pushing people throwing em, warp here warp there, and shotgun to the face, not just charging endlessly headlong into the fray... while fun it gets old.





Sentinel with ammo powers/ all weapons, as well.... actually just give all classes all weapons, and all ammo powers... god that would make things so much interesting.

[PsyrenY]

What they mean is that people replaying the game skip past the conversations.



One thing I don't like is that you have to dig through every option to get the hidden morality nugget inside on every playthrough :-( And if you miss them, it actively HURTS your score!

[Pocketgb]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
I mean I started noticing it early in ME2s marketing after EA took over.

I noticed it when early gameplay footage showed ME1 to be an RPG/shooter hybrid.
Then I truly believed it when I played it for myself: Everything was developed for a more RPG-shallow crowd.

So yeah: Of course 'it fits in'. Mass Effect's main purpose is to draw in more people into Bioware's games and later other RPGs.

Modifié par Pocketgb, 08 septembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[Jebel Krong]

Pocketgb wrote...

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...
I mean I started noticing it early in ME2s marketing after EA took over.

I noticed it when gameplay showed ME1 to be an RPG/shooter hybrid.
Then I truly believed it when everything in ME1 was developed for a much more RPG-shallow crowd.

both games are what they're designed to be: a hybrid TPS/RPG. mass effect 2 is a more refined version, is all.

obviously what CH meant was that you don't always need dialogue to convey meaning anymore: so you don't have to explain everything - you can see it - which is a far more natural thing for a species like us, that is pretty much reliant on visual cues.

[Lumikki]

To understand someones meaning, there is allways two side. Who talks and who listen. Make assumption that listener allways make right conclusions from others talking, when it as well could have been the listener making wrong conclusion as colored by listeners own opinions. Misunderstanding is very common, what comes from two point. Talker can't express them self good enough and listener can't make correct conclusions well enough.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 septembre 2010 - 03:40 .

[Ieldra]

Hathur wrote...

Woa.. roughly 80% of people played as male shep.. that surprised me (not in a pleasant way) since I found fem shep's voice acting far stronger in terms of line delivery.

Also, most played class was soldier - more than all other classes combined.. that's depressing

And my favorite class is the least played.. Engineer

^This

I really don't understand what people find in playing Soldiers. It's so boring. The only class I never play. I love my femShep Engineer.

[SomeBug]

He's talking about showing versus telling. That's all.



In ME1 the majority of the plot was conveyed in two conversations. Sovereign literally telling you his plan face to face on Virmire, and Vigil on Ilos then filling in the rest of the gaps. This is not good storytelling.



It's quite clear what he is talking about is shifting narrative away from talking heads and more towards interactive scenes. Look at how you are introduced to things at the start of Me2. Jacob shouting a brief recap to you while in a gunfight. Or later - how a lot of Harbingers character and motives are expressed through in-combat flavour dialogue. Heck, the only place we hear his name, his role and his interest in Shepard is through ambient speech.



This change is nothing but a good direction for the game. Me2 was far less stilted and static than Me1. Dialogue was expressed in more dynamic and fluid environments, rather than the now defunct talking heads style that Kotor pioneered.

[SomeBug]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hathur wrote...

Woa.. roughly 80% of people played as male shep.. that surprised me (not in a pleasant way) since I found fem shep's voice acting far stronger in terms of line delivery.

Also, most played class was soldier - more than all other classes combined.. that's depressing

And my favorite class is the least played.. Engineer

^This

I really don't understand what people find in playing Soldiers. It's so boring. The only class I never play. I love my femShep Engineer.

If you never play Soldier, how do you know it is boring?

Soldier is fun because it allows you to have more overall variety in squad makeup. It is no surprise Soldier is the most popular class. The shooting mechanics in Me2 are very robust, on a GRAW/Gears level of quality and refinement.

Furthermore, for those importing their Shep from Me1, Soldier may still be a holdover class from that game. Soldier was much much more powerful by comparison to the other classes in Me1. Continuing your Shepard for many means continuing that style of gameplay. The fact that squad powers are now essentially instant cast like your own means that it's not you and them, it's a group gameplay environment.

I don't think people dismissing Soldier as boring or somehow vulgar and cheap really understand the underlying mechanics of the title, or human behaviour at all.

[Pocketgb]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I really don't understand what people find in playing Soldiers.

Same reason most people in RPGs create fighters. It's the 'warrior' archetype.

[WidowMaker9394]

I believe they're saying that they want to make LotSB their new standard which is great.

[SomeBug]

Amyntas wrote...

My fear is that the statement is nothing but a fancy justification for cutting costs by using less voice actors. In-game cinematics can be created without a giant budget, but voice actors are an expensive investment.

Your fears are unfounded. Excluding high billed roles using high profile actors (like Martin Sheen), the majority of voice actors are not only quite cheap, but the cost to have the three cinematic directors, the programmers and animators and the QA department and the artists to put together a scene, even a completely static talking heads throwaway speech, is far higher and far more time consuming.

Most voice actors will be in the studio recording dialogue for a few days at most. higher up the chain of importance, like say all the way to Shepard both male and female, they will be in regularly throughout development, for months and months.

But don't fool yourself. VA costs are quite low on the list. VA logistics and scheduling is more tricky.

[Lord_Tirian]

Mrxknown wrote...

Agreed, I'm an Engineer as well. It's a fun class, I just wish there was dialogue based on the class you chose.

Ditto, Dragon Age did that, IIRC. I'd loved to see my Shep say something like "I'm not going to shoot you, I'm going to set you on fire."

Modifié par Lord_Tirian, 08 septembre 2010 - 03:56 .

[spacehamsterZH]

Bioware ComplainBoard Selective Reading Comprehension in full effect, yo. You guys need to read the whole interview, he also points out that only something like 15% of dialogue in the game gets skipped over, so obviously they're not looking to eliminate the dialogue system. The only way the statement makes any sense is if he meant that the storytelling should focus more on showing the action instead of characters standing around delivering exposition. Show, don't tell - it's an old maxim that applies to any visual medium, be it film, comics or video games.



Not that I expect this simple observation to calm the nerdrage - according to the usual suspects here on the Bioware ComplainBoard, too much exposition isn't a feature of weak storytelling, but of "deep roleplay mechanics", and ME2 already didn't have enough of it. Apparently the ideal RPG takes place after everything has already happened and consists of nothing but five characters standing in a room talking about what they did.