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Hudson says goal is to get away from dialogue?


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#151
Nightwriter

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Ileanos07 wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

You're just taking it out of context. What BioWare seemed most proud of, was moments when you could SEE just how hurt Ashley was when Shepard berated her after Eden Prime.

They want to achieve a level of cinematic quality that you could see the person's emotions, just as in real life, rather than have a flat face, and big words.

Well if it is like that - ok, that is a good goal. But less dialogues? I dont think it would be a good way. It woulde be more like suicide.


Yeah, it would've been better if they'd said they were going for more emotive animations.

#152
shootist70

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javierabegazo wrote...

You're just taking it out of context. What BioWare seemed most proud of, was moments when you could SEE just how hurt Ashley was when Shepard berated her after Eden Prime.

They want to achieve a level of cinematic quality that you could see the person's emotions, just as in real life, rather than have a flat face, and big words.


Hadn't seen this quote before, but yeah, I thought this was actually noticeable in the LotSB DLC. Liara is so much more expressive there, and the dialogue is much more effective. She's a hell of a lot more believable than the Liara who used to stand by a desk delivering dull backstory.

If this is the direction Bioware are going in it looks fine to me.

#153
Onyx Jaguar

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Another Witcher sighting!



I had no idea that was what ME 1 was trying to be. My eyes have been opened dramatically!

#154
Lewie

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There is a point here if the dialogue becomes more, to the point of being 'a lot' of the game it could really affect who buys it. FPS and even RPG fans might walk away and people who love lots of cutscenes and dialogue will be the fanbase i feel like Me2 sits in the middle now. Don't get me wrong i love it but if it became more dialogue and cutscenes it would put me off they have to keep the balance right. Its too good a game to mess that up.

#155
mexicola25

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do you need to start a new game to play lair of the shadow broker?

#156
Onyx Jaguar

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To me

Sounds like what Alpha Protocol did

EDIT:  Also I will say that if ME 3 is super climactic, dialogue can be a drawback

The best parts of the first game were the Virmire-Ilos-Citadel train which picked up the pace dramatically and went away from the meandering early on.  Not even ME 2 unraveled at such a pace.  If ME 3 emulates this in the second half it would be most welcome IMO

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 08 septembre 2010 - 11:15 .


#157
FlyingWalrus

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It's like no one reads past the first (ignorant) post.

Modifié par FlyingWalrus, 09 septembre 2010 - 12:45 .


#158
Pocketgb

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Nightwriter wrote...

Moving away from dialogue? Oh, BioWare, say it isn't so. That's like saying you're trying to move away from good storytelling.


One word: Ico.

#159
Onyx Jaguar

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Or Shadow of the Colossus

#160
Canned Bullets

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javierabegazo wrote...

You're just taking it out of context. What BioWare seemed most proud of, was moments when you could SEE just how hurt Ashley was when Shepard berated her after Eden Prime.

They want to achieve a level of cinematic quality that you could see the person's emotions, just as in real life, rather than have a flat face, and big words.


Yeah but we need more dialogue sequences, the squad barely says anything in ME2.

#161
AngryFrozenWater

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Bourne Endeavor wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Pure economic reasons. Voice acting is expensive, so BW cuts that. It doesn't matter what that will do to the genre, because there are not enough RPG gamers to get those 10 million copies anyway. So the new message is: Action.


I would love to know where you found this evidence because it is doubtful have any basis for your claim.

[...]

I skipped the rest of your reply in this quote (read it, though). Not sure what you are getting at with it anyway.

About the 10 million "claim":

10 million sales is BioWare's new target.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .


#162
Reiisha

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Hathur wrote...

Woa.. roughly 80% of people played as male shep.. that surprised me (not in a pleasant way) since I found fem shep's voice acting far stronger in terms of line delivery.

Also, most played class was soldier - more than all other classes combined.. that's depressing :(

And my favorite class is the least played.. Engineer :(


I hope Bioware doesn't use that as an excuse to skimp on FemShep content even more in ME3.

#163
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Translation: Voice actors are expensive, therefore if we can cut down on dialog we won't have to pay as much and it will be easier for our writers, having less dialog to write. (DA:O Awakening comes instantly to mind)



Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the quality of Bioware titles continue a downward trend now that their answering to their EA overlords and having much shorter dev cycles rather than "When it's done"




#164
DreDk

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EA effect keep going on....



It is clear to everybody now that EA / New Bioware want ME franchise to become their Gear of War / Uncharted game...



And maybe they are right: ME2 gain such a huge success...



To me, ME2 is the most disappointing game of this generation (MDGOG) so far.

My problem is only partially due to the new arcade/mainstream game design (a bland linear 3d person shooter)...

The main problem is that they wipe out the original plot (& everything you build up during the wonderful ME1) just to being able to release it also on the PS3.



Thay have destroyed a wondeful masterpiece. Let's hope they are at least happy with the sales results... The fear is that oterwise they change ME3 into a WII exclusive...

#165
Daeion

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shootist70 wrote...

haberman13 wrote...

Just because they "streamlined" the game, removed all semblance of traditional RPG mechanics and focused strictly on action doesn't mean they were going for the shooter crowd.

If anything, they are trying to dumb us all down so there are no more crowds, only people, people who like to shoot.


You know, after playing the LotSB DLC I'm reminded of what a great thing this streamlining can be: emotive, fast paced drama propelled by effective, economic dialogue and characterisation. Stick true roleplaying in there through slick narrative choice, again driven by effective dialogue, and you've got a perfect, full throttle roleplaying experience. No hanging around to loot half a dozen bodies for loose change, no pausing to rifle through cupboards for bread and apples, no sorting through dozens of mundane items in a vast backpack, no standing at vendors for minutes at a time.

Seriously, less is often a hell of a lot more if stripping away the tedious allows you to focus on the strongest elements of a genre.


But you see, those "tedious" elements are what defines the the RPG genre, things like good story telling and narrative choce are things that we should be demanding from all genres, not just RPGs.  Did you hang around to loot bodies in ME?  No, becuase it was automated.  Sure the ME system was bloated by an overabundance of drops, and needed a little streamlinging, but it was still better then the current system of no drops.

#166
Jonp382

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pacer90 wrote...

I believe it was meant that instead of using ONLY dialogue in the cutscenes, there would be a more cinematic feel with action, violence, emotion etc.


A good example is the cutscenes in the new DLC.


That doesn't sound bad. The dialog system isn't that good in Mass Effect, so this could be a step forward depending on the implementation.

Hmm, I need to play LotSB.

/too lazy to read the rest of the thread.

#167
primero holodon

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if they take away the diologue then there won't be anything seperating Mass effect from any other run of the mill third person shooter. the diologues are what make Mass effect, and every other bioware game, great. I want an RPG with shooter elements not a shooter that's only resemblence of a weastern RPG is that it's non-linear.

#168
Urazz

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I'm personally thinking that they are going to remove alot of the more optional dialogue that people tend to skip after the first playthrough anyways. That more optional stuff can be put in codex pages if need be or will allow you to look into something in more detail without the character you are talking to having to explain it to you. /shrug

#169
Eradyn

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spacehamsterZH wrote...

Eradyn wrote...

Wow, hypocrites much? Perhaps someone should make use of reading comprehension courses...for priding yourselves on it, you seem to fail with it in equal measure. My point is that spokespeople for BW need to make their statements clear, not vague.


That one sentence about "getting away from dialogue" is vague if you take it completely out of context, and only if you deliberately interpret it so that it contradicts everything else said about the role and popularity of dialogue in ME2. If you read everything, it's clear enough. You're getting hung up on the poor wording of one sentence. Hence why you're being accused of stirring the pot for no reason.

And besides, come on, does anyone honestly believe the folks at Bioware don't realize that the dialogue is far and
away their biggest strength? I mean, aside from the "they're clearly trying to make Gears of War 4" crowd, that is.


"It helps us to confirm a lot of the assumptions that we make when we design games. Obviously with a game like Mass Effect we're trying to capture the sense of continuity and the cinematic experience. More and more we're trying to create something dynamic and exciting like a really great movie and we're trying to get away from
dialogue, though even a movie has conversations. This set of decisions we make for how you would experience that and the fact that we have a dialogue system and things like that, we're kind of assuming and hoping
that we're right in that people are interested in this kind of experience."


The quote in its entirety.

It's only taken "completely out of context" to you because your perspective is different.  I'm not stirring this pot, BW did with their vague statement.  And it IS vague, even in context with the article in its entirety, as evidenced
with several others voicing their confusion and/or dismay over the statement and what it might or might not mean.  You highlight my very point: it's poor wording.  Were it not poorly worded, we would not have such a mixed reaction as we do.

It really depends on what BW means by the words they use.  This isn't unusal, though; BW has often used confusing or vague wording when speaking about their projects.  Personally, I think they do it because they like to watch forumgoers squirm about. :P

But this is just starting to go in circles.  People will accept that others have valid concerns, or they won't.  When the shoe's on the other foot, I hope people don't forget the standards they set.


Urazz wrote...

I'm personally thinking that they are going to remove alot of the more optional dialogue that people tend to skip after the first playthrough anyways. That more optional stuff can be put in codex pages if need be or will allow you to look into something in more detail without the character you are talking to having to explain it to you. /shrug


I honestly hope not, if you mean optional dialogue like with Matriarch Aethyta.  I know others' mileage will vary, but it's the little details, the fluff, the extras, that make a game that much more special and unique...and ultimately give it a more living, breathing, and interesting universe.  Save for such things as measurements and raw data, I'd rather be shown information in environment designs or told by characters than to only be able to learn it by reading the codex.  That is not to say I want to see the codex done away with...it's great for archiving already-learned information.

Modifié par Eradyn, 09 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .


#170
Lewie

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mexicola25 wrote...

do you need to start a new game to play lair of the shadow broker?


I have started a new game the journal entry for lotsb came up after Horizon, when Illium was opened up in the game basically.

#171
SplittheatomPL

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Good topic, I hope Bioware employes looking on player feedback. Please Bioware, we want cinematic RPG, not a cinematic shooter.

Modifié par SplittheatomPL, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:02 .


#172
Joshua nash

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if i want a great game with not that much dialogue i'll just go and play gears of war or halo, but the whole reason i'm a fan of bioware is because they DON'T DO BRAIN DEAD GAMES, i.e. games like halo and gears, the action shooter genre as a whole is filled with games like that, i don't mind playing a game like that every once in a while like when i'm waiting for the next bioware game or Assassin's creed game, but if bioware starts making games like that then i'm not going to spend my money on their or any of EA's products ever again

#173
FataliTensei

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It doesn't really surprise me considering the new demographic Bioware seems to going after lately

#174
brfritos

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Translation: Voice actors are expensive, therefore if we can cut down on dialog we won't have to pay as much and it will be easier for our writers, having less dialog to write. (DA:O Awakening comes instantly to mind)

Wouldn't surprise me at all to see the quality of Bioware titles continue a downward trend now that their answering to their EA overlords and having much shorter dev cycles rather than "When it's done"


This make sense, believe it or not.

I always wonder why Aria T'Loak have the voice of Carrie Ann Moss. Tali, Liara, Xala'Ran, Udina or Shepard voices, for example, are maded with less famous VA, but they are much more remembered than Aria or Alec Baldwin (Kal'Reegar).

Sure you remember the characters, but the voices that really stick to my mind made with really famous actors/actress are Joker, Anderson, Hackett, EDI and Uvenk.
The rest I don't even recognize it until I saw the credits.

And I always think that Michael Dorn was Grunt, not Uvenk.

You people can tell I'm ranting, but this is the typical case of bad writing and direction tryed to be covered with famous actors/actress.

You don't need an all-star cast to make a good movie or VA in games.
28 Days Later and Starcraft doesn't let me lie.

#175
Nigawatts

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The move away from Dialogue is the same reason Starcraft moved away from static briefings. You see the issue with a lot of games is because they are so expensive to make nowadays, you can't really afford to have your players skip content. Players skipping content, means you wasted resources on something that the player did not participate in. Meaning people got paid for doing something that didn't even matter towards the final product.



Bioware did the right thing in Mass Effect 2 by adding things such as the interrupts, and making the scenes a lot more dynamic. Player's are unwilling to skip a scene that they thought looked cool, or something funny happened. How many of you skim through Jacob's first few Dialogue rounds just to get those few Paragon/Renegade points? I mean how many times can you listen to his story about his time in the Alliance before you hold down A?



Now how many of you skip the scene where...Jack throws a chair at Miranda? Hell even if I do skip it it's only after the "SMEAR THE WALLS WITH YOU ****!" part.



While I myself would rather glean information from my Squadmates than the Codex...the Codex is a lot cheaper to produce. Perhaps using the Squadmates more dynamically in scenes such as Miranda vs. Jack and Tali vs. Legion would be better. I'm not saying they should always be fighting each other, but if they don't want to have the one on one dialogue, then make more events like these.