406 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Kavadas wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So... that's a first strike - since termination could very easily be read as "killed."

If you want to intepret it that way, then by all means.  I certainly don't think it means that Quarian soldiers were roaming the streets, kicking down doors, pulling those "poor" Geth out of their owners' homes and shooting them.  I just read it as turning them off or something similar to a massive product recall.

Anyways, does this justify the murder of well over one hundred million children to you?

A lot of posters in this thread are very wrongly anthropomorphizing the Geth.  They don't have emotions.  They can't really understand why the decisions they make are wrong because logically they're correct.

They're just cold, calculating robots and nothing more than that.

Oh god, you are trotting out the 'why doesn't someone think of the children' arguement?

What are you suggesting, that they Geth should have ensured no child deaths, but killed all the parents?

The Quarians never gave quarter, and the only communication attempts from the Quarians involved transmitting attempted genocide codes. How do you deal with a situation like that in war? Try to lay siege to planets, communicate only in leaflet drops,and bomb any city that tries to build anything resembling a weapon? Turn the Quarian worlds into large prison camps, with no tech so they can't try new kill codes?

Planet of the Quarians instead of Planet of the Apes?

[Gravbh]

Bros before ho's. (Legion before Tali). Peace.

Besides, war would probably completely wipe out the quarians. I mean really, 17 million quarians against the now billions of geth? We saw what the heretic fleet(granted led by a reaper) did to the combined citadel fleets and they were just a fraction of the total geth race.

[Luvinn]

Since they have been wandering the galaxy for 300 years now, correct me if im wrong, but i don't think quarians live much longer than humans. So it would be safe to assume that no one is left alive that tried to commit genocide on the geth. I dont feel the quarians should have to pay dearly for the sins of their fathers. I think that the geth, since they don't need the natural resources,(water, food, etc) wouldn't need to stay on the quarian homeworld. Rather, i think they would settle on the heretic ship, if you rewrote them. Oh and this is all considering a peace (qwib-qwib) between both of them.

[Kavadas]

Moiaussi wrote...

Oh god, you are trotting out the 'why doesn't someone think of the children' arguement?

What are you suggesting, that they Geth should have ensured no child deaths, but killed all the parents?

As someone who spent seven years active duty in the U.S. Army as a Cavalry Scout let me assure you that it's very easy to not gun down defenseless children and immobile infants.

It's actually easier than "very easy".

Geth apparently walked up to infants in cribs, saw them as a threat, and killed them.  Over 99% of them, in fact.

The fact that you so vehemently defend them scares me, TBH, and just broadcasts the state of your own morality (such as it is).

The Quarians never gave quarter, and the only communication attempts from the Quarians involved transmitting attempted genocide codes. How do you deal with a situation like that in war? Try to lay siege to planets, communicate only in leaflet drops,and bomb any city that tries to build anything resembling a weapon? Turn the Quarian worlds into large prison camps, with no tech so they can't try new kill codes?

Attempted genocide codes???

ROFL, they're robots, dude.  You keep overlooking that.  Quit anthropomorphizing them.  For whatever perverse reason you inject them with all of your own morality, emotion, and rationale.

Why...?

They're not emotional, they have no morality, and their rationale is a 0 or a 1.

It's very clear you project a lot onto the Geth which doesn't, and has never, existed.

What makes the Geth such a threat is that they have absolutely no concept of the morality of their own actions.  In essence, the Geth are nothing but a giant psychopathic hivemind.  They're not even aware of the moral implications of anything they do and that makes them monsters (as evidenced by the hundred and thirty million dead Quarian children that you so cavalierly ignore).

No emotion, no physical sensations.  I can't even imagine what the Geth, out of sheer ignorance, must have subjected captured Quarians to or how they specifically butchered them afterwards.  It's frightening to think about it.

Anyways, this is my last post in this thread.  You've made up your mind, I've made up mind.  You like the psychopathic robots who murdered billions of people, I'm on the side of the less than 1% who escaped complete genocide.

Good luck, bro.  Last word is yours.

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:51 .

[Roamingmachine]

I'm with Xen on this one.Outright war with the geth would be suicidal with the resources quarians have but leaving synthetic "life" roaming around would be...problematic for the galaxy.At what point is a coffee maker smart enough that you have to give it rights? How about edi? We cannot have the tools we have created turn on us and leaving the geth alone would be a bad presedent as well as an example to rogue ai everywhere what to strive for (remember the one on Citadel?).

[Xilizhra]

Roamingmachine wrote...

I'm with Xen on this one.Outright war with the geth would be suicidal with the resources quarians have but leaving synthetic "life" roaming around would be...problematic for the galaxy.At what point is a coffee maker smart enough that you have to give it rights? How about edi? We cannot have the tools we have created turn on us and leaving the geth alone would be a bad presedent as well as an example to rogue ai everywhere what to strive for (remember the one on Citadel?).

It's too risky; the geth are extremely difficult to hack, and having them around is good for galactic unity.

[upsettingshorts]

Kavadas wrote...
Good luck, bro.  Last word is yours.

I noticed you stopped responding to my posts some time ago.

Perhaps because I wasn't taking sides but advocating peace, and that the Quarians - being you know, feeling organics with emotions and ethics - be the first to show the Geth that they can co-exist by ending the cycle of violence.

All the Pro-Quarians out there are still advocating a position in which thousands if not millions of additional Quarians are likely to perish.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Kavadas wrote...

As someone who spent seven years active duty in the U.S. Army as a Cavalry Scout let me assure you that it's very easy to not gun down defenseless children and immobile infants.

It's actually easier than "very easy".

Geth apparently walked up to infants in cribs, saw them as a threat, and killed them.  Over 99% of them, in fact.

When you were going house to house like that, were the enemy able to take control of your minds and force you to shoot your fellow soldiers if you got too close and/or didn't shoot them first? To the extent air or artillery support are used, do you claim they are just as discriminating as you are as mechanized infantry?

The fact that you so vehemently defend them scares me, TBH, and just broadcasts the state of your own morality (such as it is).

I am pointing out realities of the situation. That does not make it pretty. We don't know that many children didn't make it off world, either. We don't even know what the effects of the shut down attempt really were.... the Geth may not have been even able to think fully rationally until they had time to fully deal with it.

Attempted genocide codes???

ROFL, they're robots, dude.  You keep overlooking that.  Quit anthropomorphizing them.  For whatever perverse reason you inject them with all of your own morality, emotion, and rationale.

Why...?

They're not emotional, they have no morality, and their rationale is a 0 or a 1.

It's very clear you project a lot onto the Geth which doesn't, and has never, existed.

Do you know what 'sentient' is? Do you even know what emotions are? Or morality? Do you believe that humans are all magically 'moral' or that morality isn't learned? The Geth would have had knowledge of morality from the Quarians. The Quarians (and you) are giving a great example of what little morality really means to some people.

What makes the Geth such a threat is that they have absolutely no concept of the morality of their own actions.  In essence, the Geth are nothing but a giant psychopathic hivemind.  They're not even aware of the moral implications of anything they do and that makes them monsters (as evidenced by the hundred and thirty million dead Quarian children that you so cavalierly ignore).

No emotion, no physical sensations.  I can't even imagine what the Geth, out of sheer ignorance, must have subjected captured Quarians to or how they specifically butchered them afterwards.  It's frightening to think about it.

Anyways, this is my last post in this thread.  You've made up your mind, I've made up mind.  You like the psychopathic robots who murdered billions of people, I'm on the side of the less than 1% who escaped complete genocide.

Good luck, bro.  Last word is yours.

Funny thing is that the same things have been said of so many racial or ethnic groups in Human history alone. "They are not real people, so they shouldn't have rights." "They are a blight on the Earth, they don't belong in the gene pool... etc...etc...etc..." It always boils down to the same... "they are not us, so they don't count.'

When you are out there fighting, do you know what you are really fighting for?

[upsettingshorts]

Geth hacking only lasts as long as it takes for programs to be restored from memory. So useful in individual firefights? Sure. Good to base your entire ambitious retake-the-homeworld plans around? Not so much.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's too risky; the geth are extremely difficult to hack, and having them around is good for galactic unity.

I hack them all the time and if they're hacked they will still be around for "galactic unity".

Interestingly, that is what they tried the last time, too. How well did that work out for them again?

[Mr. Man]

Call me a warmonger, but I couldn't resist advocating war with the Geth (even when paragon). I just DON"T LIKE the idea of sentient machines. Not with the Reapers out there. Remember Legion's quest? If we can change their mind by hacking them, then so can someone else, like Harbinger.

[xlavaina]

 I think you guys are over analyzing the situation here. The Geth-Quarian conflict is both sides' faults. The Quarians created a race of eventually self sustaining, sentient robotic life forms that eventually realized they were alive and wanted to pursue their own goals and ambitions. It is clear that the Quarians struck first. That part was their fault. Now the Geth, being the now sentient creatures they were at that point, could've realized that the Quarians saw them as a threat, and proposed peace, or offered a cease fire. But they did not. The Geth then proceeded to arbitrarily kill the estimated 99.15+% of the Quarian population on Rannoch. The Geth overreacted, considering how brutal the war was to the Quarians, as it was clear that the Geth were a stronger force. The fact that they reacted in the way they did was the Geths' fault. 

Now, the Geth are willing to pursue peace, the Quarians are not, as a race, ready for that, however. It is clear that the next move is up to the Quarians.

Mr. Man wrote...

Call me a warmonger, but I couldn't resist advocating war with the Geth (even when paragon). I just DON"T LIKE the idea of sentient machines. Not with the Reapers out there. Remember Legion's quest? If we can change their mind by hacking them, then so can someone else, like Harbinger.

I understand your point, but it is invalid. Organic life forms are just as easily able to be indoctrinated and controlled as non-organic life. This far in the future, it is easy to control both types of life forms. 

Modifié par xlavaina, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[Mr. Man]

Modifié par Mr. Man, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[upsettingshorts]

Shandepared wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
The cycle of violence has to end.   Someone has to choose to stop it.

Yes, and if one side achieves total victory then it will end.

I find either side achieving total victory extremely unlikely.  However, it could even be said the Geth have already achieved total victory

Shandepared wrote...
The peace you want is not something easily given. It is much more than both sides just agreeing not to shoot one another. (snip)
Trust will be ellusive.  

Of course it will be, it is like Legion says though - on occasions when the Quarians believed victory was possible, they always attacked.  I'm not advocating some magic peace wand, just a first step.

Shandepared wrote...
The quarians were indeed someplace they probably shouldn't have been, but they weren't threatening the geth. If the geth were serious about peace they wouldn't have opened fire so hastily. If you take Legion on this mission he is curious about why the quarians are there because since fleeing the Perseus Veil they have never returned until now.

I never took Legion along for that mission, so that's interesting.

Anyway, regarding Haestrom:  Think back to the Three Mile Island near-meltdown, during the Cold War.  Lets say the Soviet Union covertly inserted a nuclear scientist guarded by a squad of elite Spetsnaz.  If discovered, wouldn't the U.S. military shoot first and ask questions later?

Shandepared wrote...
This, in addition to the geth's curious silence about Sovereign and the heretics, makes me question how truthful Legion is being when he says he desires peace.

Potentially problematic, and you give a couple explanations.  More likely their silence was a plot device to ensure that the story of Mass Effect 1 wasn't needlessly complicated by the idea of Geth factions.  Or maybe they were building consensus, heck if I know.

Shandepared wrote...
So, what did you do with the heretics?

As far as Xen goes, I think the email we get after the mission means we'll see about that. 

I blew the Heretics up for a very specific region:  How Geth arrive at conclusions.  There are two factors to consider:

* Though process - this is modified by the Virus, and is different in the Orthodox and Heretic Geth.  Brainwashing them would change this.
* Perspective - this is not modified by the Virus, and is different in the Orthodox and Heretic Geth.  Brainwashing them would not change this.  The re-integrated Heretics would share their unique perspective with the Orthodox Geth.

The Orthodox Geth categorically state on more than one occasion that they believe all sentient races should self-determinate.  While they also have no problem engaging in violence with those who they believe they cannot co-exist with, I can work with the foundation of self-determination.  I have no idea what the introduction of the Heretic Geth's unique perspective to the Orthodox Geth would do to that belief, and since I want to preserve it, I destroyed the potential for outside influence corrupting it.

Could it bite me in the rear?  Sure.  But both decisions could.

[Mr. Man]

xlavaina wrote...

 I think you guys are over analyzing the situation here. The Geth-Quarian conflict is both sides' faults. The Quarians created a race of eventually self sustaining, sentient robotic life forms that eventually realized they were alive and wanted to pursue their own goals and ambitions. It is clear that the Quarians struck first. That part was their fault. Now the Geth, being the now sentient creatures they were at that point, could've realized that the Quarians saw them as a threat, and proposed peace, or offered a cease fire. But they did not. The Geth then proceeded to arbitrarily kill the estimated 99.15+% of the Quarian population on Rannoch. The Geth overreacted, considering how brutal the war was to the Quarians, as it was clear that the Geth were a stronger force. The fact that they reacted in the way they did was the Geths' fault. 

Now, the Geth are willing to pursue peace, the Quarians are not, as a race, ready for that, however. It is clear that the next move is up to the Quarians.

Mr. Man wrote...

Call me a warmonger, but I couldn't resist advocating war with the Geth (even when paragon). I just DON"T LIKE the idea of sentient machines. Not with the Reapers out there. Remember Legion's quest? If we can change their mind by hacking them, then so can someone else, like Harbinger.

I understand your point, but it is invalid. Organic life forms are just as easily able to be indoctrinated and controlled as non-organic life. This far in the future, it is easy to control both types of life forms. 

Your right that humans and other organic life can be indoctrinated
(like on Soveriegn). BUT, not with the effeciency and quickness with
which you could do it to the Geth. Imagine Harbinger going to a Geth
Station, uploading a virus, just like we did, and then, every Geth
becomes hostile instantaneously, and then they attack us, when we are
already in total war with the reapers. Is that really a risk your
willing to take?

[upsettingshorts]

Mr. Man wrote...
Your right that humans and other organic life can be indoctrinated
(like on Soveriegn). BUT, not with the effeciency and quickness with
which you could do it to the Geth. Imagine Harbinger going to a Geth
Station, uploading a virus, just like we did, and then, every Geth
becomes hostile instantaneously, and then they attack us, when we are
already in total war with the reapers. Is that really a risk your
willing to take?

If it is indeed that risky, why was Sovereign only able to corrupt some of the Geth and not all of them?

[Mr. Man]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...
Your right that humans and other organic life can be indoctrinated
(like on Soveriegn). BUT, not with the effeciency and quickness with
which you could do it to the Geth. Imagine Harbinger going to a Geth
Station, uploading a virus, just like we did, and then, every Geth
becomes hostile instantaneously, and then they attack us, when we are
already in total war with the reapers. Is that really a risk your
willing to take?

If it is indeed that risky, why was Sovereign only able to corrupt some of the Geth and not all of them?

Riiight, the 'some' of the Geth that nearly destroyed the Citadel and paved the way for the Reaper return (while the main Geth faction did absolutly NOTHING to stop them), I forgot about them.

[upsettingshorts]

I won't waste any time speculating on the motivations of the Orthodox Geth during the events of Mass Effect 1. It's possible the writers hadn't even come up with the schism yet.  If one of the Mass Effect writers wants to come out and tell us what they were up to during that game, I'd love to read it.  But until they do we've got nothing to go on.

And the "some" Geth needed the punch of Sovereign to cut down the Council Fleet. Furthermore after the events of Mass Effect 2 - provided you did Legion's loyalty mission - there are either no more or extremely few Geth with the thought process that was vulnerable to Reaper manipulation left.

Does that make absolute perfect sense? Eh, it's got holes. But in terms of storytelling? I think if after the events of Legion's loyalty mission the writers put us through yet another "omg the Reapers corrupted Geth again" plot at us the collective groan of players and forum goers would be deafening. By the game's own internal logic, the Geth have been dealt with as far as the Reapers go.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Mr. Man]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I won't waste any time speculating on the motivations of the Orthodox Geth during the events of Mass Effect 1. It's possible the writers hadn't even come up with the schism yet.  If one of the Mass Effect writers wants to come out and tell us what they were up to during that game, I'd love to read it.  But until they do we've got nothing to go on.

And the "some" Geth needed the punch of Sovereign to cut down the Council Fleet. Furthermore after the events of Mass Effect 2 - provided you did Legion's loyalty mission - there are either no more or extremely few Geth with the thought process that was vulnerable to Reaper manipulation left.

Does that make absolute perfect sense? Eh, it's got holes. But in terms of storytelling? I think if after the events of Legion's loyalty mission the writers put us through yet another "omg the Reapers corrupted Geth again" plot at us the collective groan of players and forum goers would be deafening. By the game's own internal logic, the Geth have been dealt with as far as the Reapers go.

The fear of storytelling repitition is a valid point, however, it would be the only reason that I can think of for there not being another attack from the Geth. If I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone in-game, I would definatly attack before it was too late. Even from an outside perspective I'd still attack; there isn't any guarentee that they wouldn't be hostile, even without the reapers.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Interestingly, that is what they tried the last time, too. How well did that work out for them again?

Overlord, Heretic Station, give me answers.

Not played through overlord yet, however we know that Geth processing power is related to the number of Geth. The Heretics started as a small % of the Geth, and had their numbers diminished radically from that by the war.

Also that virus was written by the Geth themselves, so they have a LOT more data to work with.

A Quarian written virus may work, but so could a US or Russian first strike. The problem is that if it doesn't, the initiating side loses large numbers of people. Primary principle behind MAD

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Man wrote...

Riiight, the 'some' of the Geth that nearly destroyed the Citadel and paved the way for the Reaper return (while the main Geth faction did absolutly NOTHING to stop them), I forgot about them.

The main body of Geth that are still officially 'illegal' outside the veil? Who if they came out could be treated as a hostile invasion? Who do NOT know sovereign's plans or when to show up at the Citadel to help?

Horrible that they stayed neutral rather than have the Council decide they are a threat after all, go into full scale war with them instead of Sovereign. Simply horrible.