406 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Man]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

Turians, Asari, even Cerberus never attacked the Citadel. Saren was one Man, Morinth was one woman, Cerberus was larger but since it helped stop the collectors I think it deserves some credit. The Heretic Geth numbered in the billions.

Billions? Where is your number from? Do you have any clue how many ships they would have needed to settle 'billions?" The combined Council and Alliance fleets don't field 'billions.'

Not attacking the Citadel means what? Cerberus are considered a terrorist organization and a threat to the Council.

The Terminus pirates consisted of a mix of all of the above races, and did engage in war against the Council.

You draw the line at individual members, saying that Saren doesn't count because he was just one Turian, but how many of a race do you need before it is that race's 'responsibility?" If a group of humans want to settle on some distant world, should they be prevented from doing so? Locked up? Held under guard just in case?

Dude, you need to calm down. Your taking this way to seriously, which is funny considering your arguement lacks foundation as you don't seem to differentiate between attacking the central political hub of the Galaxy, and piracy in the lawless terminus systems. Also the number "billions" comes from the codex, it is not far-fetched at all, remember that there were over 1 million geth just on heretic station.

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Yojimbo_Ltd wrote...
Just because you can be involved, doesn't mean you should. My reasoning is exactly what Kaiden thinks about the rachni decision. Leave the people involved to make their own decision. Getting involved in something neither you nor anyone you have ever known has been involved in is... arrogant. But Mass effect is about taking sides i guess, which is good and fun anyway...

Kaidan is wrong and shortsighted.  Opportunities to make a positive impact on the world - such as the unique situation Shepard finds himself in - have to be taken advantage of or they're lost.   Heck, negotiating the end of hostiliies for a war his country wasn't involved in earned Theodore Roosevelt the Nobel Peace Prize.  It's not unheard of or arrogant at all.  It's diplomacy.

It's in those moments with the right people that history actually gets made.

But to draw attention to an earlier point I was making, Shepard shouldn't (and couldn't) hold their hands through an entire peace process - he can and in my opinion should however encourage both sides to take the first step towards peaceful co-existence. 

That particular example isn't the best. Though I understand your spirit. I never claimed it was unheard of. I know that this way of thinking is currently "In" . 
-In regards to the "Kaidan being wrong". That is personal perferance. I cannot dissuade from your point of view, nor should I. People like you change the world... for better or for worse.
-In regards to the short-sightedness... please explain.

 

[upsettingshorts]

There are probably better examples, but any opportunity to cite Teddy Roosevelt amuses me.

On to your question... I'm going to bed so I'll have to go with the short version:

Perhaps short-sighted is the wrong term. I'm not sure what would be better. I'll explain anyway.

Humanity wasn't around for the Rachni controversy, nor was it around when the Geth pushed the Quarians from their homeworld. But they are now in a position to do something about it, and - this is more or less my key point - are going to have to live with the consequences.

What's past is always going to be past, but humans and humanity are part of the future. They shouldn't shirk from trying to influence it, and in fact should embrace those opportunities when they present themselves. Does that mean Shepard should make a habit out of playing God? Of course not, but trying to be a positive (for Paragons at least) influence in those moments is a good thing.

So in very very short: It may be their past, but it's part of our future.  That's what I think Kaidan doesn't get.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 12 septembre 2010 - 03:58 .

[Yojimbo_Ltd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are probably better examples, but any opportunity to cite Teddy Roosevelt amuses me.

On to your question... I'm going to bed so I'll have to go with the short version:

Perhaps short-sighted is the wrong term. I'm not sure what would be better. I'll explain anyway.

Humanity wasn't around for the Rachni controversy, nor was it around when the Geth pushed the Quarians from their homeworld. But they are now in a position to do something about it, and - this is more or less my key point - are going to have to live with the consequences.

What's past is always going to be past, but humans and humanity are part of the future. They shouldn't shirk from trying to influence it, and in fact should embrace those opportunities when they present themselves. Does that mean Shepard should make a habit out of playing God? Of course not, but trying to be a positive (for Paragons at least) influence in those moments is a good thing.

So in very very short: It may be their past, but it's part of our future.  That's what I think Kaidan doesn't get.

...


You may be right



Your intentions are good. In the end; that's probably all that matters. But no one can know the full reprocussions of their decisions. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. All I say is... let them take full responsibility for their future. It may hurt humanity later, but hurt will always come, in one way or another.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Man wrote...

Dude, you need to calm down. Your taking this way to seriously, which is funny considering your arguement lacks foundation as you don't seem to differentiate between attacking the central political hub of the Galaxy, and piracy in the lawless terminus systems. Also the number "billions" comes from the codex, it is not far-fetched at all, remember that there were over 1 million geth just on heretic station.

1) The Skyllian Blitz wasn't piracy. It was an attack with intent to destroy a colony outright. It failed there. The Geth attacks similarly started with smaller colonies, but were successful (mostly due to Sovereign).

2) You need to differentiate between Geth (as individual programs) and Geth as cooperative combinations of individual Geth piloting any given mobile platform, such as any given Geth Trooper. From a combat and resource consumption level, population levels need to be compared in terms of mobile platforms rather than individual Geth programs.

3) If you are going to say things like 'races need to be responsible for the actions of their members', that is a strong statement... expect it to be taken at least somewhat seriously.

[anmiro]

I like Tali and Legion. I'm all about the peace. 
 
I foresee that Paragon Shepard will be uniting all the races in ME:3 (except maybe for the those useless Batarians) to form some kind of unified front against the Reapers. That wont be enough though, so I'm sure there will also be a secret weapon or two along with some brilliant plan thought up by the fearless leader.

After the reapers are destroyed, the Quarian's will accept the fact that the Geth (not to be confused with the heretics) helped out and aren't all that bad. With a nudge from Commander Shepard, both sides will declare peace and the Quarian's home world will be returned to them.

After all the Geth aren't even really using the thing. They're basically just holding onto it until the Quarians chill out and recognize the fact that they have a right to live. Like Johnny Five. 

[Spartas Husky]

casedawgz wrote...

People can say all this in theory, but they would totally follow in the quarians' footsteps if a situation like this occurred in reality. Say tomorrow your microwave becomes self aware. Are you going to try and nurture its intellect and negotiate with it, or are you going to get freaked out and unplug it? Everyone here would do the latter, despite what they may say to the contrary.

Same thing would have been said 30-20 years ago.

Everyone would just nuke each other, if The soviet union pushed to far.

Yet I dont see, wastelands, or radiactive rivers anywhere.

If your too exitable, you should not be in a leadership position.

First thing you do, is try to think logically, if meeting the unknown, not blow the thing up, and possible blowing yourself.

Exp: If your trying to give a "logical" outcome, is simple.

What is the first thing anyone do when meeting a stray dog that looks hungry?, is the first thing to throw a shoe?, to run immidiately, jump of the bridge your own.?

Answer is right there. When meeting the unknown, and fear comes into place, instinct drives you to negotiate, because you dont know how strong the dog in front of you is, or what might he be carrying.

So your logic is flawed.

[casedawgz]

Spartas Husky wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

People can say all this in theory, but they would totally follow in the quarians' footsteps if a situation like this occurred in reality. Say tomorrow your microwave becomes self aware. Are you going to try and nurture its intellect and negotiate with it, or are you going to get freaked out and unplug it? Everyone here would do the latter, despite what they may say to the contrary.

Same thing would have been said 30-20 years ago.

Everyone would just nuke each other, if The soviet union pushed to far.

Yet I dont see, wastelands, or radiactive rivers anywhere.

If your too exitable, you should not be in a leadership position.

First thing you do, is try to think logically, if meeting the unknown, not blow the thing up, and possible blowing yourself.

Exp: If your trying to give a "logical" outcome, is simple.

What is the first thing anyone do when meeting a stray dog that looks hungry?, is the first thing to throw a shoe?, to run immidiately, jump of the bridge your own.?

Answer is right there. When meeting the unknown, and fear comes into place, instinct drives you to negotiate, because you dont know how strong the dog in front of you is, or what might he be carrying.

So your logic is flawed.

I love how none of the examples you use are in any way comparable to the actual situation at hand.

[TheRevanchist]

Hmm...I understand and respect both sides of the argument, I myself am pro-Quarian and I will defend them to the death regardless of finger pointing. Because it's very easy to point fingers when you aren't the one makeing the decision. I also believe that they still have a right to live on their homeworld. I don't think peace is honestly an option for the simple fact that no matter if the admirals agree with it or not. The whole of the Quarian people wouldn't just magicly be willing to embrace peace with the Geth. And did it occure to anyone, that while the Geth said that "whenever the creators believed they could win they attacked 100% of the time." What makes anyone think that the Geth aren't doing the same thing? Maybe they simply don't believe they can win yet, seriously the Quarians have 50,000 ships thats a huge number for a navy. And I don't want to hear the excuse "those arn't warships, there old and dont count." How do you know? no one outside the game has any way of knowing just how many warships the Quarians have. If you read Ascension whenever a ship returns from Pilgrimage or a scouting mission. warships and fighters break off from the fleet and lock on to the approaching ship. If the proper code is not given the warships vaporize it without a second thought. I mean christ, the Quarians aren't helpless. Maybe the Geth are simply waiting for a chance for them to believe they can win, and finish the job because that would be the "logical" thing for them to do since the creators are still a threat to their exsistance.

[Moiaussi]

casedawgz wrote...

I love how none of the examples you use are in any way comparable to the actual situation at hand.

I love it how people discard any analogy that doesn't agree with their position. Instead of simply dismissing the other person's arguement, how about showing how they aren't compatable?

The US and Soviets both had extensive nuclear arsenals. At least once they came within a hair of nuclear war (Cuban missile crisis). They didn't. Everyone lived.

The Quarians and Geth had different kinds of nukes. The Quarians had their kill switch (the Geth couldn't have known for sure it wouldn't have worked until it was tried, and it did kill a lot of Geth before they overcame it) and the Geth had numbers and considerable superior strength in conventional warfare. When the face off came, instead of the route Kennedy and  Krushchev took, the Quarians pulled the trigger. And lost. They lost as badly as if they had tried peace and were wrong.
 
Please explain how those situations weren't comparable.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 12 septembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[Moiaussi]

kylecouch wrote...

Hmm...I understand and respect both sides of the argument, I myself am pro-Quarian and I will defend them to the death regardless of finger pointing. Because it's very easy to point fingers when you aren't the one makeing the decision. I also believe that they still have a right to live on their homeworld. I don't think peace is honestly an option for the simple fact that no matter if the admirals agree with it or not. The whole of the Quarian people wouldn't just magicly be willing to embrace peace with the Geth. And did it occure to anyone, that while the Geth said that "whenever the creators believed they could win they attacked 100% of the time." What makes anyone think that the Geth aren't doing the same thing? Maybe they simply don't believe they can win yet, seriously the Quarians have 50,000 ships thats a huge number for a navy. And I don't want to hear the excuse "those arn't warships, there old and dont count." How do you know? no one outside the game has any way of knowing just how many warships the Quarians have. If you read Ascension whenever a ship returns from Pilgrimage or a scouting mission. warships and fighters break off from the fleet and lock on to the approaching ship. If the proper code is not given the warships vaporize it without a second thought. I mean christ, the Quarians aren't helpless. Maybe the Geth are simply waiting for a chance for them to believe they can win, and finish the job because that would be the "logical" thing for them to do since the creators are still a threat to their exsistance.

1) The Geth already won, but don't live on the worlds in question. They live in orbital stations.

2) The ability to destroy an individual craft that appearantly is two stupid to disengage when outgunned (bad writing? Or just rhetoric in the same way the Destiny Ascension was described as being essentially unbeatable?) does not really say all that much for fleet strength.

3) The same rhetoric gets used in so many situations. The Cold War is considered to be over. Ireland found peace and reunited. Many countries, including the US, survived civil wars without having to anhilliate the other side. Many countries, including the US survived an end to slavery. An end to race based oppression is still a work in progress pretty much world wide, but South Africa survived and is much better integrated than the fearmongers claimed would be possible.

It is possible that the Geth will follow the Quarian example and stick with the 'no quarter' philosophy. It is a good thing though that there are pesky Humans around to show them both that there is a better path, isn't it? 

By the way, the Krogan had already attempted a more peaceful path under Wrex, and this time with Human guidance, he is succeeding.

Of course all this is fiction, so it really comes down to the writers, and there is a certain percentage of the fan base that seems to insist that happy endings are somehow 'boring' or 'unrealistic.' I am hoping that the writers will go the route of allowing those players paths that lead to the depressing hollow victories they seem to like without completely ruling out more positive endings. That doesn't mean everything would have to be perfect.. there would always be issues (with population levels that large and empires that spread out there would always be issues), but there at least be peace for a few centuries before the next major war.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

anmiro wrote...

I like Tali and Legion. I'm all about the peace. 
 
I foresee that Paragon Shepard will be uniting all the races in ME:3 (except maybe for the those useless Batarians) to form some kind of unified front against the Reapers. That wont be enough though, so I'm sure there will also be a secret weapon or two along with some brilliant plan thought up by the fearless leader.

After the reapers are destroyed, the Quarian's will accept the fact that the Geth (not to be confused with the heretics) helped out and aren't all that bad. With a nudge from Commander Shepard, both sides will declare peace and the Quarian's home world will be returned to them.

After all the Geth aren't even really using the thing. They're basically just holding onto it until the Quarians chill out and recognize the fact that they have a right to live. Like Johnny Five. 

I feel the same way.
The quarians should first see if what Legion says is true and if a peace settlement can be reached that both sides can live with if Legion is lying or wrong than go to war.

[Mr. Man]

Moiaussi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hmm...I understand and respect both sides of the argument, I myself am pro-Quarian and I will defend them to the death regardless of finger pointing. Because it's very easy to point fingers when you aren't the one makeing the decision. I also believe that they still have a right to live on their homeworld. I don't think peace is honestly an option for the simple fact that no matter if the admirals agree with it or not. The whole of the Quarian people wouldn't just magicly be willing to embrace peace with the Geth. And did it occure to anyone, that while the Geth said that "whenever the creators believed they could win they attacked 100% of the time." What makes anyone think that the Geth aren't doing the same thing? Maybe they simply don't believe they can win yet, seriously the Quarians have 50,000 ships thats a huge number for a navy. And I don't want to hear the excuse "those arn't warships, there old and dont count." How do you know? no one outside the game has any way of knowing just how many warships the Quarians have. If you read Ascension whenever a ship returns from Pilgrimage or a scouting mission. warships and fighters break off from the fleet and lock on to the approaching ship. If the proper code is not given the warships vaporize it without a second thought. I mean christ, the Quarians aren't helpless. Maybe the Geth are simply waiting for a chance for them to believe they can win, and finish the job because that would be the "logical" thing for them to do since the creators are still a threat to their exsistance.

1) The Geth already won, but don't live on the worlds in question. They live in orbital stations.

2) The ability to destroy an individual craft that appearantly is two stupid to disengage when outgunned (bad writing? Or just rhetoric in the same way the Destiny Ascension was described as being essentially unbeatable?) does not really say all that much for fleet strength.

3) The same rhetoric gets used in so many situations. The Cold War is considered to be over. Ireland found peace and reunited. Many countries, including the US, survived civil wars without having to anhilliate the other side. Many countries, including the US survived an end to slavery. An end to race based oppression is still a work in progress pretty much world wide, but South Africa survived and is much better integrated than the fearmongers claimed would be possible.

It is possible that the Geth will follow the Quarian example and stick with the 'no quarter' philosophy. It is a good thing though that there are pesky Humans around to show them both that there is a better path, isn't it? 

By the way, the Krogan had already attempted a more peaceful path under Wrex, and this time with Human guidance, he is succeeding.

Of course all this is fiction, so it really comes down to the writers, and there is a certain percentage of the fan base that seems to insist that happy endings are somehow 'boring' or 'unrealistic.' I am hoping that the writers will go the route of allowing those players paths that lead to the depressing hollow victories they seem to like without completely ruling out more positive endings. That doesn't mean everything would have to be perfect.. there would always be issues (with population levels that large and empires that spread out there would always be issues), but there at least be peace for a few centuries before the next major war.

The US Civil War was won with the unconditional surrender of the Confederate States, which led to their dissolution. So yes, it was a total victory. Were not saying EVERY Geth has to die, they simply need to be defeated to the point were they would never be a threat again.

[TheRevanchist]

Moiaussi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hmm...I understand and respect both sides of the argument, I myself am pro-Quarian and I will defend them to the death regardless of finger pointing. Because it's very easy to point fingers when you aren't the one makeing the decision. I also believe that they still have a right to live on their homeworld. I don't think peace is honestly an option for the simple fact that no matter if the admirals agree with it or not. The whole of the Quarian people wouldn't just magicly be willing to embrace peace with the Geth. And did it occure to anyone, that while the Geth said that "whenever the creators believed they could win they attacked 100% of the time." What makes anyone think that the Geth aren't doing the same thing? Maybe they simply don't believe they can win yet, seriously the Quarians have 50,000 ships thats a huge number for a navy. And I don't want to hear the excuse "those arn't warships, there old and dont count." How do you know? no one outside the game has any way of knowing just how many warships the Quarians have. If you read Ascension whenever a ship returns from Pilgrimage or a scouting mission. warships and fighters break off from the fleet and lock on to the approaching ship. If the proper code is not given the warships vaporize it without a second thought. I mean christ, the Quarians aren't helpless. Maybe the Geth are simply waiting for a chance for them to believe they can win, and finish the job because that would be the "logical" thing for them to do since the creators are still a threat to their exsistance.

1) The Geth already won, but don't live on the worlds in question. They live in orbital stations.

2) The ability to destroy an individual craft that appearantly is two stupid to disengage when outgunned (bad writing? Or just rhetoric in the same way the Destiny Ascension was described as being essentially unbeatable?) does not really say all that much for fleet strength.

3) The same rhetoric gets used in so many situations. The Cold War is considered to be over. Ireland found peace and reunited. Many countries, including the US, survived civil wars without having to anhilliate the other side. Many countries, including the US survived an end to slavery. An end to race based oppression is still a work in progress pretty much world wide, but South Africa survived and is much better integrated than the fearmongers claimed would be possible.

It is possible that the Geth will follow the Quarian example and stick with the 'no quarter' philosophy. It is a good thing though that there are pesky Humans around to show them both that there is a better path, isn't it? 

By the way, the Krogan had already attempted a more peaceful path under Wrex, and this time with Human guidance, he is succeeding.

Of course all this is fiction, so it really comes down to the writers, and there is a certain percentage of the fan base that seems to insist that happy endings are somehow 'boring' or 'unrealistic.' I am hoping that the writers will go the route of allowing those players paths that lead to the depressing hollow victories they seem to like without completely ruling out more positive endings. That doesn't mean everything would have to be perfect.. there would always be issues (with population levels that large and empires that spread out there would always be issues), but there at least be peace for a few centuries before the next major war.

maybe not, but it does prove they have some sort combat ready force within the fleet that is capable of fighting to some degree. I would also say that Quarians seem to be better at fighting when it comes to Ship to Ship combat, why? because despite the Geth's overwhelming numbers during the Morning War the Quarian Fleet was able to keep Geth warships away long enough to gather all the survivors onto the fleet in the first place. So I believe that if the Quarians fight the Geth from with orbit as Kal'Reagar suggests, then I think the Quarians have a serious chance of succes.
Oh whoopy Geth overran the Citadel, they had most of their forces stationed at the relays that CONNECTED to the Citadel. Meaning most of the forces they deployed weren't even there, On top of that lets talk about the Destiny Ascension. That ship pretty much single handedly held out for, I would say probably an hour or more in game against a massive Geth armada.  That is an impressive feat for any single warship, by all accounts and by any normal circemstance that ship IS unbeatable. Not to mention the tactical advantage of spareing the ship to begin with. The DA has a crew of nearly 10,000 people in it. The Turians lost 20 crusiers, each with a crew of about 800. Saving the DA costs 8 Human crusiers, if they share personel numbers with Turians they too have about 800 people. So overall saving the DA is saving a lot more lives, and you are saving a warship that is not only a powerul symbol but also a powerful military asset.
The whole "arms race" argument is ridiculus, because unless you are simply pro-human nothing good comes from letting the DA die. On top of that everyone seems to forget that in order to be part of the Council to begin with you must have a strong military, that also means the Salarians clearly have a powerful navy which people seem to clearly forget.  8 human cruisers, thats not really a whole lot to replace when compaired to the Asari just saying "F it" and not building ships anymore. Then the pressure falls to the Salarians, Turians and Humans to make up the difference. On top of that moral is crushed with the lose of the DA, which is without question the strongest ship the council races have. The outcome of an entire war can change based on moral alone. Flesh burns and Bones break but crushing a mans spirit is to truly destroy him.
Back on topic however, if they are able to use the research that Rael started then hacking their higher order runtimes would become crucial during a fleet engagement. I don't support Claudia Black (no matter what character she voices honestly) but I do support the wepons Rael was testing. If he had simply been careful he would have had an unstopable wepon to hack itno Geth while simutaniusly attacking Geth ships, who would be totaly unorganized due to the hacking attempt. Even if the Geth are able to overcome the hack at some point they will probably have taken too many loses still claim victory. So I support Han'Gerral and Rael'Zorah, and should the time I will personaly make sure that Normandy SR-2 is at the head of the Migrant Fleet when the Battle of Rannoch comes.
I would like to take the time to say that when I first posted I said I had a biased opinion. I also made no attempts to hide the fact, because I just simply don't care for the Geth as a whole.

[TheRevanchist]

Mr. Man wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Hmm...I understand and respect both sides of the argument, I myself am pro-Quarian and I will defend them to the death regardless of finger pointing. Because it's very easy to point fingers when you aren't the one makeing the decision. I also believe that they still have a right to live on their homeworld. I don't think peace is honestly an option for the simple fact that no matter if the admirals agree with it or not. The whole of the Quarian people wouldn't just magicly be willing to embrace peace with the Geth. And did it occure to anyone, that while the Geth said that "whenever the creators believed they could win they attacked 100% of the time." What makes anyone think that the Geth aren't doing the same thing? Maybe they simply don't believe they can win yet, seriously the Quarians have 50,000 ships thats a huge number for a navy. And I don't want to hear the excuse "those arn't warships, there old and dont count." How do you know? no one outside the game has any way of knowing just how many warships the Quarians have. If you read Ascension whenever a ship returns from Pilgrimage or a scouting mission. warships and fighters break off from the fleet and lock on to the approaching ship. If the proper code is not given the warships vaporize it without a second thought. I mean christ, the Quarians aren't helpless. Maybe the Geth are simply waiting for a chance for them to believe they can win, and finish the job because that would be the "logical" thing for them to do since the creators are still a threat to their exsistance.

1) The Geth already won, but don't live on the worlds in question. They live in orbital stations.

2) The ability to destroy an individual craft that appearantly is two stupid to disengage when outgunned (bad writing? Or just rhetoric in the same way the Destiny Ascension was described as being essentially unbeatable?) does not really say all that much for fleet strength.

3) The same rhetoric gets used in so many situations. The Cold War is considered to be over. Ireland found peace and reunited. Many countries, including the US, survived civil wars without having to anhilliate the other side. Many countries, including the US survived an end to slavery. An end to race based oppression is still a work in progress pretty much world wide, but South Africa survived and is much better integrated than the fearmongers claimed would be possible.

It is possible that the Geth will follow the Quarian example and stick with the 'no quarter' philosophy. It is a good thing though that there are pesky Humans around to show them both that there is a better path, isn't it? 

By the way, the Krogan had already attempted a more peaceful path under Wrex, and this time with Human guidance, he is succeeding.

Of course all this is fiction, so it really comes down to the writers, and there is a certain percentage of the fan base that seems to insist that happy endings are somehow 'boring' or 'unrealistic.' I am hoping that the writers will go the route of allowing those players paths that lead to the depressing hollow victories they seem to like without completely ruling out more positive endings. That doesn't mean everything would have to be perfect.. there would always be issues (with population levels that large and empires that spread out there would always be issues), but there at least be peace for a few centuries before the next major war.

The US Civil War was won with the unconditional surrender of the Confederate States, which led to their dissolution. So yes, it was a total victory. Were not saying EVERY Geth has to die, they simply need to be defeated to the point were they would never be a threat again.

Exactly, not all Geth DO need to be destroyed, they simply need to be reduced to numbers that reduce their intelligence level to the point that resistence is no longer possible. However I personaly see the Geth as a mistake that needs fixed. I don't see the initial "kill switch" action as attempted genocide I simply see it as a factory recall because there was a serious glich in software.

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...
I would also say that Quarians seem to be better at fighting when it comes to Ship to Ship combat, why? because despite the Geth's overwhelming numbers during the Morning War the Quarian Fleet was able to keep Geth warships away long enough to gather all the survivors onto the fleet in the first place.

 
Keep in mind that was 300 years ago and Quarian/Geth tech was probably on pretty even ground.  In that 300 years the Geth have had the opportunity to dedicate resources to improving on that tech, the Quarians have not.

kylecouch wrote...
On top of that lets talk about the Destiny Ascension...Not to mention the tactical advantage of spareing the ship to begin with. The DA has a crew of nearly 10,000 people in it. The Turians lost 20 crusiers, each with a crew of about 800. Saving the DA costs 8 Human crusiers, if they share personel numbers with Turians they too have about 800 people. So overall saving the DA is saving a lot more lives,

 
Alien lives.  This isn't a racist thing it's a realist thing.  Human lives must, absolutely must, be held as higher priority than alien lives in war for the same reason you must hold the maintenance of your weapon as higher priority to that of your allies.  Sparing human lives and ships benefits the Alliance, saving alien lives and ships does not.  Political capital has a very rapid depreciation rate a good soldier or a good ship does not.  Now if you could somehow capture the DA that would make it worth saving, but sacrificing people to save a ship that will never be of use to you (and that can be rebuilt anyway) just isn't a good idea.

kylecouch wrote...
I would like to take the time to say that when I first posted I said I had a biased opinion. I also made no attempts to hide the fact, because I just simply don't care for the Geth as a whole.

You don't have to care for the Geth to acknowledge their value.  I don't care much for Quebec but I'd never encourage someone to start a war with them, nor wish them ill because of that.

[Bad King]

As a lot of people have said, Koris has the best idea. The Geth don't even live on the homeworld, the two races could probably easily coexist there. However there is still a problem with this idea. The problem is that the two races distrust each other a lot. Even if a truce was formed and the quarians moved back onto the homeworld there would still be a lot of distrust (since there are so many geth stations in close proximity to the homeworld), and this would perhaps cause the wary quarians to rearm (build more big AA guns, ships etc) and thus cause even more distrust between the two races. Despite this, the peace option means no Quarian/Geth cassualties (at least in the short term) and so we will have a strong force ready to fight the reapers (especially if you re-wrote the geth heretics).



Han'Gerrel's idea just seems reckless to me- the quarians would be charging into a war against a race that they do not understand. As Kal'Reegar and Koris imply, this option would probably result in a Quarian defeat since they lack decent shock-troopers and equipment. If you decide that you want to help the Quarians re-take the homeworld, I would strongly advise destroying the heretic base to reduce geth numbers (and give the quarians a slight advantage). This idea however would massively weaken Quarian (and probably geth) numbers, making the war against the reapers ever harder.



Daro'Xen's idea seems crazy and dangerous. If the next elected Quarian admiral turns out to share ideas with her, and Rael's research is continued, then the Quarians could be in command of a deadly synthetic army. Xen's sinister email implies that humanity will pay due to Shepard concealing Rael's research from the Alarei. She clearly wants Quarian dominance in the galaxy through use of the geth armies. I'm starting to think that she could be an antagonist in the next game.

[TheRevanchist]

DPSSOC wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
I would also say that Quarians seem to be better at fighting when it comes to Ship to Ship combat, why? because despite the Geth's overwhelming numbers during the Morning War the Quarian Fleet was able to keep Geth warships away long enough to gather all the survivors onto the fleet in the first place.

 
Keep in mind that was 300 years ago and Quarian/Geth tech was probably on pretty even ground.  In that 300 years the Geth have had the opportunity to dedicate resources to improving on that tech, the Quarians have not.

kylecouch wrote...
On top of that lets talk about the Destiny Ascension...Not to mention the tactical advantage of spareing the ship to begin with. The DA has a crew of nearly 10,000 people in it. The Turians lost 20 crusiers, each with a crew of about 800. Saving the DA costs 8 Human crusiers, if they share personel numbers with Turians they too have about 800 people. So overall saving the DA is saving a lot more lives,

 
Alien lives.  This isn't a racist thing it's a realist thing.  Human lives must, absolutely must, be held as higher priority than alien lives in war for the same reason you must hold the maintenance of your weapon as higher priority to that of your allies.  Sparing human lives and ships benefits the Alliance, saving alien lives and ships does not.  Political capital has a very rapid depreciation rate a good soldier or a good ship does not.  Now if you could somehow capture the DA that would make it worth saving, but sacrificing people to save a ship that will never be of use to you (and that can be rebuilt anyway) just isn't a good idea.

kylecouch wrote...
I would like to take the time to say that when I first posted I said I had a biased opinion. I also made no attempts to hide the fact, because I just simply don't care for the Geth as a whole.

You don't have to care for the Geth to acknowledge their value.  I don't care much for Quebec but I'd never encourage someone to start a war with them, nor wish them ill because of that.

This war involves more then just humans, you speak as if humans are the only race in the whole galaxy that matters and losses to other aliens are none conseqensial. That IS a racist thing, not a realist thing. The galaxy needs to be united and of the same mind. Not only is letting the DA die a bad stratigic move it is also a bad political one because this causes political unrest amoung the the council races in regard to humanity, who are in no way more important then the rest of them. Thinking otherwise is arrogent considering humans have just arrived on the scene, and are expected to protect galatic leadership rather then userp it from a situation where they don't honestly deserve it. Also I highly doubt the DA can simply be "rebuilt" as easily as you might wish, considering the Asari say "to hell with this" and stop trying. On top of that the Turians are now produceing more ships to make up for the Asari. In case you have forgotten the Turians kinda hate humanity, whereas the Asari are a neutral party for the most part. That only results in a higher chance of a civil war for control of the council due to humanity's arrogance in thinking they should rule everything they see.

On another point I DO value Geth as possible shock troopers to throw at the Reapers. However they can and should be reduced to minimal intellegence so the Quarians and reprogram them so they cannot rise up again. Then the Quarians not only have their homeworld to shelter the none combatents they also have absolute control of the Geth and can use them as fodder to toss at the Reapers.

Lastly Quarians know pretty much everything there IS to know about ships at this point. they know strutural weak points as well as strong ones. They know how to move quickly to repair hull damage so should a fight break out the Quarian fleet's durability would probably be far greater because they know exactly what to fortify and what to fix should the Geth create a breech in the hull. On top of that they would know exactly where to fire on Geth warships to infilict most damage.

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...
This war involves more then just humans, you speak as if humans are the only race in the whole galaxy that matters and losses to other aliens are none conseqensial.

 
I don't consider them non-consequential at all.  Yes the galaxy needs to be unified, yes we need all the ships and men we can get but we need ships and men we can rely on.  Let's look at what we know shall we.  When the Geth rose up and drove the Quarians out of their space what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  When the Geth, after 300 years, came out from behind the Veil and attacked a human colony what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  When hundreds of thousands of humans just disappeared what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  Now I can't speak for anyone else but I see a pattern forming here.  What will the Council do when the Reapers show up and start attacking human colonies?  Nothing, because it's not their problem.  Like it or not this war is going to be one we have to fight on our own.  If we want to stop the Reapers it's going to take humanity to do it because the other races won't step in until it becomes their problem.  How much do you want to gamble on the Reapers not knowing that?  How much do you want to gamble that they'll attack all species at once not just the one that's giving them the most trouble?  In the long term we need to preserve human lives and human vessels because the Council races will not lift a finger until they are directly endangered and even then only to protect themselves.  We need to look out for ourselves because no one else will that is the reality of our situation.

kylecouch wrote...
Also I highly doubt the DA can simply be "rebuilt" as easily as you might wish,

Aside from the Asari saying "to hell with this" I fully acknowledge that rebuilding the DA wouldn't be easy.  I'm guessing it's prohibitively expensive which is no doubt part of why they only had 1.  However it can be done.

kylecouch wrote...
On another point I DO value Geth as possible shock troopers to throw at the Reapers. However they can and should be reduced to minimal intellegence so the Quarians and reprogram them so they cannot rise up again. Then the Quarians not only have their homeworld to shelter the none combatents they also have absolute control of the Geth and can use them as fodder to toss at the Reapers.

 
Why do you require the Quarians to control the Geth for that?  The Geth are governed by logic it would be a simple matter to point out that of all the races involved theirs (with the possible exception of the Rachni) is most suited to providing the necessary canon fodder.  Not only will they do it, they'll probably commend you for the idea and you have the advantage of the massive synthetic army not being controlled by a race with a 300 year old grudge against everyone.

Furthermore where do people get this idea that the Quarians deserve their homeworld and to have control of the Geth?  They lost both in the Morning War and unless I'm missing out on some piece of lore have done nothing to earn them back.  They've contributed nothing to galactic society (no artistic, philosophic, or scientific contributions to speak of) and despite insisting they've paid for their mistake they continually show they haven't learned from it.

kylecouch wrote...
Lastly Quarians know pretty much everything there IS to know about ships at this point. they know strutural weak points as well as strong ones. They know how to move quickly to repair hull damage so should a fight break out the Quarian fleet's durability would probably be far greater because they know exactly what to fortify and what to fix should the Geth create a breech in the hull. On top of that they would know exactly where to fire on Geth warships to infilict most damage.

Yes the Quarian fleet would be remarkably durable (only made better if they grabbed Scotty and LeForge off the Enterprises) I'll give you that one.  But you forget that Geth tech is significantly different from ours and the Quarians have had no chance to study it.  I'm sure they could make a few educated guesses but with no insight into their construction that's the best you'd have.  I'm not saying the Geth would just brush the Quarians aside like a mildly irritating insect but I do think in the end they'd lose in a straight up fight.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 12 septembre 2010 - 06:56 .

[TheRevanchist]

DPSSOC wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
This war involves more then just humans, you speak as if humans are the only race in the whole galaxy that matters and losses to other aliens are none conseqensial.

 
I don't consider them non-consequential at all.  Yes the galaxy needs to be unified, yes we need all the ships and men we can get but we need ships and men we can rely on.  Let's look at what we know shall we.  When the Geth rose up and drove the Quarians out of their space what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  When the Geth, after 300 years, came out from behind the Veil and attacked a human colony what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  When hundreds of thousands of humans just disappeared what did the Council do?  Nothing, because it wasn't their problem.  Now I can't speak for anyone else but I see a pattern forming here.  What will the Council do when the Reapers show up and start attacking human colonies?  Nothing, because it's not their problem.  Like it or not this war is going to be one we have to fight on our own.  If we want to stop the Reapers it's going to take humanity to do it because the other races won't step in until it becomes their problem.  How much do you want to gamble on the Reapers not knowing that?  How much do you want to gamble that they'll attack all species at once not just the one that's giving them the most trouble?  In the long term we need to preserve human lives and human vessels because the Council races will not lift a finger until they are directly endangered and even then only to protect themselves.  We need to look out for ourselves because no one else will that is the reality of our situation.

kylecouch wrote...
Also I highly doubt the DA can simply be "rebuilt" as easily as you might wish,

Aside from the Asari saying "to hell with this" I fully acknowledge that rebuilding the DA wouldn't be easy.  I'm guessing it's prohibitively expensive which is no doubt part of why they only had 1.  However it can be done.

kylecouch wrote...
On another point I DO value Geth as possible shock troopers to throw at the Reapers. However they can and should be reduced to minimal intellegence so the Quarians and reprogram them so they cannot rise up again. Then the Quarians not only have their homeworld to shelter the none combatents they also have absolute control of the Geth and can use them as fodder to toss at the Reapers.

 
Why do you require the Quarians to control the Geth for that?  The Geth are governed by logic it would be a simple matter to point out that of all the races involved theirs (with the possible exception of the Rachni) is most suited to providing the necessary canon fodder.  Not only will they do it, they'll probably commend you for the idea and you have the advantage of the massive synthetic army not being controlled by a race with a 300 year old grudge against everyone.

Furthermore where do people get this idea that the Quarians deserve their homeworld and to have control of the Geth?  They lost both in the Morning War and unless I'm missing out on some piece of lore have done nothing to earn them back.  They've contributed nothing to galactic society (no artistic, philosophic, or scientific contributions to speak of) and despite insisting they've paid for their mistake they continually show they haven't learned from it.

kylecouch wrote...
Lastly Quarians know pretty much everything there IS to know about ships at this point. they know strutural weak points as well as strong ones. They know how to move quickly to repair hull damage so should a fight break out the Quarian fleet's durability would probably be far greater because they know exactly what to fortify and what to fix should the Geth create a breech in the hull. On top of that they would know exactly where to fire on Geth warships to infilict most damage.

Yes the Quarian fleet would be remarkably durable (only made better if they grabbed Scotty and LeForge off the Enterprises) I'll give you that one.  But you forget that Geth tech is significantly different from ours and the Quarians have had no chance to study it.  I'm sure they could make a few educated guesses but with no insight into their construction that's the best you'd have.  I'm not saying the Geth would just brush the Quarians aside like a mildly irritating insect but I do think in the end they'd lose in a straight up fight.

You assume when the Reapers come they will only target humans and simply ignore the rest of the galaxy. Granted they had Collectors do that, but the Reaper's themselves hate ALL organic life not just humans. The Reapers are a threat to everyone and everything that exsist's in the galaxy. This is not just humanity's problem in this case it is everyones problem.

In regards to the Council ignoreing the human abductions, they were in the Terminus they are not within the Council's sphere of influence. Also if humanity is going to have a Council seat they need to prove they are capable of dealing with their own problems. Otherwise they don't deserve a Council seat IMO. Secondly I don't recall them simply ignoreing Edan Prime, they simply had no evidence proving Saren's guilt. You can't just throw massive armada's around near the Terminus or it WILL start wars. The Council was right to not send fleets after Saren, that is why Spectres exsist to begin with. Also in regard to not helping the Quarians, AI was illegal at the time of the Morning War. The Council had no reason to assist the Quarians when they broke the Council's laws, even though it wasen't on purpose. Overall the Council does exactly what it is suppose to do. When you save them and they tell you they have dismissed the claims of Reapers. Can you honestly blame them? if someone told you a race of beings you've never heard of or seen is going to destroy Earth but never provide solid proof are you going to believe it? Of course not you would consider him a nut case trying to gain attention. The Council is willing to believe anything as long as proof is provided. There decisions decide the fate of trillions of people, probably tens of trillions. They have to think carefuly before they do anything.

Finally in regards to the war...again Rael'Zora WAS taking steps to learn about how the Geth have evolved since the Morning War and was running wepons tests to produce significant enough results to the point where war would actually be possible without a total failure imminent the moment it begins. Granted he took things a tad too far, but regardless he was taking steps to learn more recent Geth technology so that they COULD do more then take an educated guess. He was on the right track of the situation he just got sloppy.

For my final word I don't think the Quarians started it, why do I think that? Because Tali even says in ME1 that the Geth were already on the verge of Revolution BEFORE the order to disable them was even decided upon. They came to the conclusion to shut them down with the hope of avoiding the war that was coming. 

Modifié par kylecouch, 12 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...
You assume when the Reapers come they will only target humans and simply ignore the rest of the galaxy. Granted they had Collectors do that, but the Reaper's themselves hate ALL organic life not just humans. The Reapers are a threat to everyone and everything that exsist's in the galaxy. This is not just humanity's problem in this case it is everyones problem.

 
The Reapers will attack everyone, eventually, but do you really think they're ignorant of the Council's complacency, their hesitance to take action?  The Reapers know they can attack humanity without drawing the attention of the other races cause they've done it twice.  You are correct that the Reapers are everyone's problem my point is the leaders of the alien races seem content to wait until it's beating down their door to do anything.

kylecouch wrote...
In regards to the Council ignoreing the human abductions, they were in the Terminus they are not within the Council's sphere of influence. Also if humanity is going to have a Council seat they need to prove they are capable of dealing with their own problems. Otherwise they don't deserve a Council seat IMO.

 
Here's the thing though, the Collectors could have easily switched focus (we know they wouldn't but the characters in game don't at first).  If hundreds of thousands of people have disappeared, leaving no trace and with no explanation I damn well expect my government to at least look into it regardless of where it happened or to who.  Why, because if it's happening wherever to whoever it could easily happen here to us.  The Council is content to do nothing, absolutely nothing, with regards to the disappearances.

kylecouch wrote...
Secondly I don't recall them simply ignoreing Edan Prime, they simply had no evidence proving Saren's guilt. You can't just throw massive armada's around near the Terminus or it WILL start wars. The Council was right to not send fleets after Saren, that is why Spectres exsist to begin with.

 
I'm not talking about Saren I'm talking about the Geth.  Part of any agreement like the Council set up is that you submit to their rules and one of the things you get in return is protection.  You cannot cripple a groups ability to defend themselves and then demand they do so.  The moment the Geth attacked a colony in Council space the Council was obligated to take action, they didn't.

However there's a distinct difference between taking no immediate action and doing nothing.  Do I think the Council should have rushed in with their fleet, no.  Do I think they should have been looking for where the Geth were and what they were doing, yes.  Did they, no.  The Asari Councillor points out that humanity was "aware of the risks" when they started colonizing the Traverse.  This ignores the fact that the Geth were never one of those omnipresent risks, and secondly that it was the Council who forced them to settle in that region.  The Council only took what little action they did because their top agent appeared to have gone rogue and might have made them look bad.

Speaking of Saren the least the Council could have done was allowed for an actual investigation.  If you are sincerely investigating the activities of a man who's activities are classified you either declassify them or have the investigation performed by someone with sufficient clearance.  It might not have changed anything but what they did makes it seem like they were covering for him.

kylecouch wrote...
Also in regard to not helping the Quarians, AI was illegal at the time of the Morning War. The Council had no reason to assist the Quarians when they broke the Council's laws, even though it wasen't on purpose.

 
This goes back to what I said about the Collectors.  The Geth were a Quarian problem and the Council did nothing against the eventuality that it could potentially become their problem.

kylecouch wrote...
Overall the Council does exactly what it is suppose to do. When you save them and they tell you they have dismissed the claims of Reapers. Can you honestly blame them?

 
Yes I can

kylecouch wrote...
if someone told you a race of beings you've never heard of or seen is going to destroy Earth but never provide solid proof are you going to believe it? Of course not you would consider him a nut case trying to gain attention.

 
I certainly would up until one of those beings crashed into my house and killed all my friends.  The Council has seen a Reaper denying their existence is an act of cowardice and were it my choice I'd see them all racked for it.

kylecouch wrote...
For my final word I don't think the Quarians started it, why do I think that? Because Tali even says in ME1 that the Geth were already on the verge of Revolution BEFORE the order to disable them was even decided upon. They came to the conclusion to shut them down with the hope of avoiding the war that was coming. 

Will have to replay ME1 for that conversation but what I seem to recall was Tali mentioning the Quarians were afraid the Geth would rise up so they hit the kill switch to prevent it.  This was not because there were signs of revolution it was based on the idea that once the Geth achieved self awareness they'd not be content with their lot in life.  It was an assumption based on an emotional perspective not a tactical appraisal based on observation.  As said may have remembered it wrong will replay Geth conversation with Tali.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[TheRevanchist]

DPSSOC wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
You assume when the Reapers come they will only target humans and simply ignore the rest of the galaxy. Granted they had Collectors do that, but the Reaper's themselves hate ALL organic life not just humans. The Reapers are a threat to everyone and everything that exsist's in the galaxy. This is not just humanity's problem in this case it is everyones problem.

 
The Reapers will attack everyone, eventually, but do you really think they're ignorant of the Council's complacency, their hesitance to take action?  The Reapers know they can attack humanity without drawing the attention of the other races cause they've done it twice.  You are correct that the Reapers are everyone's problem my point is the leaders of the alien races seem content to wait until it's beating down their door to do anything.

kylecouch wrote...
In regards to the Council ignoreing the human abductions, they were in the Terminus they are not within the Council's sphere of influence. Also if humanity is going to have a Council seat they need to prove they are capable of dealing with their own problems. Otherwise they don't deserve a Council seat IMO.

 
Here's the thing though, the Collectors could have easily switched focus (we know they wouldn't but the characters in game don't at first).  If hundreds of thousands of people have disappeared, leaving no trace and with no explanation I damn well expect my government to at least look into it regardless of where it happened or to who.  Why, because if it's happening wherever to whoever it could easily happen here to us.  The Council is content to do nothing, absolutely nothing, with regards to the disappearances.

kylecouch wrote...
Secondly I don't recall them simply ignoreing Edan Prime, they simply had no evidence proving Saren's guilt. You can't just throw massive armada's around near the Terminus or it WILL start wars. The Council was right to not send fleets after Saren, that is why Spectres exsist to begin with.

 
I'm not talking about Saren I'm talking about the Geth.  Part of any agreement like the Council set up is that you submit to their rules and one of the things you get in return is protection.  You cannot cripple a groups ability to defend themselves and then demand they do so.  The moment the Geth attacked a colony in Council space the Council was obligated to take action, they didn't.

However there's a distinct difference between taking no immediate action and doing nothing.  Do I think the Council should have rushed in with their fleet, no.  Do I think they should have been looking for where the Geth were and what they were doing, yes.  Did they, no.  The Asari Councillor points out that humanity was "aware of the risks" when they started colonizing the Traverse.  This ignores the fact that the Geth were never one of those omnipresent risks, and secondly that it was the Council who forced them to settle in that region.  The Council only took what little action they did because their top agent appeared to have gone rogue and might have made them look bad.

Speaking of Saren the least the Council could have done was allowed for an actual investigation.  If you are sincerely investigating the activities of a man who's activities are classified you either declassify them or have the investigation performed by someone with sufficient clearance.  It might not have changed anything but what they did makes it seem like they were covering for him.

kylecouch wrote...
Also in regard to not helping the Quarians, AI was illegal at the time of the Morning War. The Council had no reason to assist the Quarians when they broke the Council's laws, even though it wasen't on purpose.

 
This goes back to what I said about the Collectors.  The Geth were a Quarian problem and the Council did nothing against the eventuality that it could potentially become their problem.

kylecouch wrote...
Overall the Council does exactly what it is suppose to do. When you save them and they tell you they have dismissed the claims of Reapers. Can you honestly blame them?

 
Yes I can

kylecouch wrote...
if someone told you a race of beings you've never heard of or seen is going to destroy Earth but never provide solid proof are you going to believe it? Of course not you would consider him a nut case trying to gain attention.

 
I certainly would up until one of those beings crashed into my house and killed all my friends.  The Council has seen a Reaper denying their existence is an act of cowardice and were it my choice I'd see them all racked for it.

kylecouch wrote...
For my final word I don't think the Quarians started it, why do I think that? Because Tali even says in ME1 that the Geth were already on the verge of Revolution BEFORE the order to disable them was even decided upon. They came to the conclusion to shut them down with the hope of avoiding the war that was coming. 

Will have to replay ME1 for that conversation but what I seem to recall was Tali mentioning the Quarians were afraid the Geth would rise up so they hit the kill switch to prevent it.  This was not because there were signs of revolution it was based on the idea that once the Geth achieved self awareness they'd not be content with their lot in life.  It was an assumption based on an emotional perspective not a tactical appraisal based on observation.  As said may have remembered it wrong will replay Geth conversation with Tali.

Ah, but they even said themselves that there is not enough evidence to prove Soverign was NOT a Geth creation. Like you say the Geth are capable of amazeing technological feats. it's not totaly unreasonable to assume he was a Geth dreadnaught. Granted we both actually know they are morons but for the sake of argument I am defending them lol.

Still from a political standpoint killing the Council changes nothing, the human Council is just as unwilling to act as they were. Only this time, not only do you not have a one ship armada like the DA to use when the Reapers arrive you also have a politicly divided society who no longer trust one another. On top of that the galaxy's moral is shot also due to the lose of the DA.

I am playing ME1 as we speak, and just had that conversation a few hours ago. that was pretty much an exact quote from her. So the way I see it the Quarians did nothing wrong and still support Rael'Zora and Han'Gerral.

I will admit that the Council does not think about the long term implications of their actions. However removeing them does not change Council reluctence towards the situation. So it boils down a militaristic standpoint. Keeping them alive provides the best military advantage because A) the DA  the Asari are still produceing warships. C) most of the Council races still trust each other to provide military support to the others should they finally pull their heads outta their...well you get the idea.

[xlavaina]

Bad King wrote...

As a lot of people have said, Koris has the best idea. The Geth don't even live on the homeworld, the two races could probably easily coexist there. However there is still a problem with this idea. The problem is that the two races distrust each other a lot. Even if a truce was formed and the quarians moved back onto the homeworld there would still be a lot of distrust (since there are so many geth stations in close proximity to the homeworld), and this would perhaps cause the wary quarians to rearm (build more big AA guns, ships etc) and thus cause even more distrust between the two races. Despite this, the peace option means no Quarian/Geth cassualties (at least in the short term) and so we will have a strong force ready to fight the reapers (especially if you re-wrote the geth heretics).

Yes I agree, Koris has the best plan out of the three admirals. Peace is the only way to go. Coexistence would bepossible, but I recommend against it. You're right, the looming Geth space stations in orbit would be too much for some Quarians to bear I think. However, it is known that the Geth do not actually use any of the resources on the planet, and instead mine nearby asteroids for their raw materials. Therefore, it is probable that the Geth could live pretty much wherever. Actually, living in an asteroid belt would be preferable, considering the huge amount of resources they would then have available. Furthermore, I believe that some sort of peace could be worked out. The Geth seem willing. All the Quarians need to do is pretty much follow and be accepting of said peace. 

Bad King wrote...
Han'Gerrel's idea just seems reckless to me- the quarians would be charging into a war against a race that they do not understand. As Kal'Reegar and Koris imply, this option would probably result in a Quarian defeat since they lack decent shock-troopers and equipment. If you decide that you want to help the Quarians re-take the homeworld, I would strongly advise destroying the heretic base to reduce geth numbers (and give the quarians a slight advantage). This idea however would massively weaken Quarian (and probably geth) numbers, making the war against the reapers ever harder.

Once again, I totally agree. I don't think Gerrel has really thought out his plan much. I have said the before but been ignored mostly. In a head to head engagement, the Quarians will lose. For sure. Hands down. No discussion needed. The Migrant Fleet consists of 50,000 or so ships held together by duct tape and glue. They practically have nothing that could really serve as a serious defense or attack towards a Geth ship, let alone a Geth fleet. Hell, they couldn't even take back one of their own ships. Additionally, lets just say that the Quarians would stand a chance. All the Geth would have to do is hijack one of the Quarian ships, find the location of the likely hidden Live Ships, and seek and destroy them. Game over, the entire Quarian race starves to death. I mean common people... the fact that anyone is even considering conflict is to me, insane... 

Bad King wrote...
Daro'Xen's idea seems crazy and dangerous. If the next elected Quarian admiral turns out to share ideas with her, and Rael's research is continued, then the Quarians could be in command of a deadly synthetic army. Xen's sinister email implies that humanity will pay due to Shepard concealing Rael's research from the Alarei. She clearly wants Quarian dominance in the galaxy through use of the geth armies. I'm starting to think that she could be an antagonist in the next game.

Lastly, I agree here too. Xen is best described by Tali when she calls her insane, because Xen really is insane. The Geth are extremely advanced synthetic life forms. A virus is certainly a possibility for a method of attack, but lets consider the possibilities. Lets say it works. The Quarians gain control over the Geth again, retake the home world and start rebuilding. However, the Geth are still there. What if they one day overcome the virus and realize what happened? It will be the Morning War 2.0. Now, from the other side, lets say they fail with the virus, and the Geth catch on to their plan. The Geth come full force at the Migrant Fleet. Boom. Game over. Quarians are now extinct. This idea just seems way too risky to be seriously considered. I could also see her becoming an antagonist. However, it is my personal belief that you'll decide who to side with for the retaking of the home world. 

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...
Ah, but they even said themselves that there is not enough evidence to prove Soverign was NOT a Geth creation. Like you say the Geth are capable of amazeing technological feats. it's not totaly unreasonable to assume he was a Geth dreadnaught. Granted we both actually know they are morons but for the sake of argument I am defending them lol.

Except this raises three interesting questions.  #1 Why does Sovereign not share more in common with the Geth ship?  The DA was one of a kind but it would have shared extensive commonalities with other Asari vessels.  Much like you could do with cars you can look at a car and make a fair guess at whether it's American, European, Japanese, etc.  Sovereign, while perhaps sharing functional commonality, would have been remarkably different from the other Geth ships.

#2 Why was there only one Sovereign?  The Geth don't operate under financial constraints but material constraints (construction limited only by the availability of resources) when building ships so why not have a few less cruisers or whatever class those geth ships were and more Sovereign class dreadnoughts.

#3 The Council acknowledges tha Saren used the Reaper "myth" to gain the allegiance of the Geth.  So the question is, how could Saren have convinced the Geth that something they built was their God?  I don't care how charismatic you have to be nobody dumb enough to believe something they built is their God is capable of interstellar travel.

kylecouch wrote...
Still from a political standpoint killing the Council changes nothing, the human Council is just as unwilling to act as they were. Only this time, not only do you not have a one ship armada like the DA to use when the Reapers arrive you also have a politicly divided society who no longer trust one another. On top of that the galaxy's moral is shot also due to the lose of the DA.

Which is why my grievances against the Council don't enter in to the decision to scrap the DA.  scrapping the DA is simply a matter of ensuring humanity has the best chance it can (individually) against the Reapers.  Also part of my decision is the inevitability of war with the Asari in which case I'd really rather they not have a "one ship armada" as you put it.

kylecouch wrote...
I am playing ME1 as we speak, and just had that conversation a few hours ago. that was pretty much an exact quote from her. So the way I see it the Quarians did nothing wrong and still support Rael'Zora and Han'Gerral.

 
Much as I'd like to take your word for it I'm really not doubting what she said but how she said it and more importantly how I heard it.  For example I have a friend who hears the Council's reasons for not helping you in ME2 as "We're sorry but our hands are tied." where as I hear it as "You're mentally unstable and we're not dealing with your crap until you calm down".  However with regards to the Quarians not doing anything wrong; if somebody is about to start a fist fight with me am I justified in attempting to blow his brains out?

kylecouch wrote...
Keeping them alive provides the best military advantage because A) the DA  the Asari are still produceing warships. C) most of the Council races still trust each other to provide military support to the others should they finally pull their heads outta their...well you get the idea.

Except
A) Will never be of use to humanity
So what?  Turians probably produce better military craft
C) They will never pull their heads outta their...well you get the idea.

[Mecha Tengu]

neither



I would help the geth pound the Quarian flotilla into submission and then force survivors into slave labour for the Geth



derp Karma cut