406 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr. Man]

How is Han'Gerral's plan reckless? 50,000 ships is nothing to be scoffed at. I mean, think about that number for a second- thats possibly more than the entire Alliance fleet. I think that they could pull it off, especially if you blew up the Heretics. You guys make a valid point that the liveships would be in danger, but I don't think the Quarians would use them in the attack... that would just be stupid.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Man wrote...

The US Civil War was won with the unconditional surrender of the Confederate States, which led to their dissolution. So yes, it was a total victory. Were not saying EVERY Geth has to die, they simply need to be defeated to the point were they would never be a threat again.

The Geth WON. What you are saying is the South should have held out for unilateral surrender on the part of the North, even after being utterly defeated, after the sacking of Georgia, etc.

Furthermore, the Confederate states were not 'disbanded'. They were states before the Civil War and were states after the  Civil War. They ceased being separatist, but that isn't the same as disbanding.

[Mecha Tengu]

Mr. Man wrote...

How is Han'Gerral's plan reckless? 50,000 ships is nothing to be scoffed at. I mean, think about that number for a second- thats possibly more than the entire Alliance fleet. I think that they could pull it off, especially if you blew up the Heretics. You guys make a valid point that the liveships would be in danger, but I don't think the Quarians would use them in the attack... that would just be stupid.

and out of these 50,000 ships how many are combat ready? I would think at least 1/3 of their fleet is dedicated to housing and agriculture.

[TheRevanchist]

DPSSOC wrote...

kylecouch wrote...
Ah, but they even said themselves that there is not enough evidence to prove Soverign was NOT a Geth creation. Like you say the Geth are capable of amazeing technological feats. it's not totaly unreasonable to assume he was a Geth dreadnaught. Granted we both actually know they are morons but for the sake of argument I am defending them lol.

Except this raises three interesting questions.  #1 Why does Sovereign not share more in common with the Geth ship?  The DA was one of a kind but it would have shared extensive commonalities with other Asari vessels.  Much like you could do with cars you can look at a car and make a fair guess at whether it's American, European, Japanese, etc.  Sovereign, while perhaps sharing functional commonality, would have been remarkably different from the other Geth ships.

#2 Why was there only one Sovereign?  The Geth don't operate under financial constraints but material constraints (construction limited only by the availability of resources) when building ships so why not have a few less cruisers or whatever class those geth ships were and more Sovereign class dreadnoughts.

#3 The Council acknowledges tha Saren used the Reaper "myth" to gain the allegiance of the Geth.  So the question is, how could Saren have convinced the Geth that something they built was their God?  I don't care how charismatic you have to be nobody dumb enough to believe something they built is their God is capable of interstellar travel.

kylecouch wrote...
Still from a political standpoint killing the Council changes nothing, the human Council is just as unwilling to act as they were. Only this time, not only do you not have a one ship armada like the DA to use when the Reapers arrive you also have a politicly divided society who no longer trust one another. On top of that the galaxy's moral is shot also due to the lose of the DA.

Which is why my grievances against the Council don't enter in to the decision to scrap the DA.  scrapping the DA is simply a matter of ensuring humanity has the best chance it can (individually) against the Reapers.  Also part of my decision is the inevitability of war with the Asari in which case I'd really rather they not have a "one ship armada" as you put it.

kylecouch wrote...
I am playing ME1 as we speak, and just had that conversation a few hours ago. that was pretty much an exact quote from her. So the way I see it the Quarians did nothing wrong and still support Rael'Zora and Han'Gerral.

 
Much as I'd like to take your word for it I'm really not doubting what she said but how she said it and more importantly how I heard it.  For example I have a friend who hears the Council's reasons for not helping you in ME2 as "We're sorry but our hands are tied." where as I hear it as "You're mentally unstable and we're not dealing with your crap until you calm down".  However with regards to the Quarians not doing anything wrong; if somebody is about to start a fist fight with me am I justified in attempting to blow his brains out?

kylecouch wrote...
Keeping them alive provides the best military advantage because A) the DA  the Asari are still produceing warships. C) most of the Council races still trust each other to provide military support to the others should they finally pull their heads outta their...well you get the idea.

Except
A) Will never be of use to humanity
So what?  Turians probably produce better military craft
C) They will never pull their heads outta their...well you get the idea.

In responce to A) The Reapers are going to attack more then just the Human's and it's foolish to think otherwise. The smart bet would be to have a one ship armada to help fight said Reapers, who are themselves one ship armadas.

In response to Can you prove that? the Asari built the DA and look how powerful it is. Meanwhile all the surrounding Turian ships are getting blown to hell like a fat kid through a bag of trail mix.

In response to C) I am an eternal optimist in regards to The Council.

Also where do you get the idea of a war with Asari? That has never even been hinted at in any remote way. The Asari are from what I can see partly human sympathetic. They have no reason to magicly invade humanity. Unless of course they decide to be **** holes and let their ship die based on human-centric logic, rather then the security of the whole galaxy.

I will however agree with you on the interpretation of dialogue, that is simply perspective.

I also believe more then one Ret-Con has taken place which explains the Council's extra level of stupid IMHO.

[Mr. Man]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

The US Civil War was won with the unconditional surrender of the Confederate States, which led to their dissolution. So yes, it was a total victory. Were not saying EVERY Geth has to die, they simply need to be defeated to the point were they would never be a threat again.

The Geth WON. What you are saying is the South should have held out for unilateral surrender on the part of the North, even after being utterly defeated, after the sacking of Georgia, etc.

Furthermore, the Confederate states were not 'disbanded'. They were states before the Civil War and were states after the  Civil War. They ceased being separatist, but that isn't the same as disbanding.

Perhaps disbanding was the wrong word, but they're country was destroyed, the states survived because they were 'reclaimed' by the Union. Y'know, kinda like how the Quarians would 'reclaim' the homeworld. And I never compared the Quarians to the Confederates, so I don't know where you got that from. The Geth HAVEN'T won, they're are still 50,000 Quarian ships with Millions of Quarians (17 million, aka, the population of Greece + Israel) I'd say that between the two, those countries pack serious firepower and they don't even have a flotilla of 50,000 ships!

[xlavaina]

Except that Greece and Israel aren't going up against an enemy technologically and most likely numerically more advanced then them. Face it, the Quarians couldn't take back one ship. There's no way they could stand up to the Geth fleet in any capacity.

[DPSSOC]

xlavaina wrote...

Except that Greece and Israel aren't going up against an enemy technologically and most likely numerically more advanced then them. Face it, the Quarians couldn't take back one ship. There's no way they could stand up to the Geth fleet in any capacity.

To be fair that was ground troops not fleet warfare, slight difference.

[xlavaina]

Oh. Well either way I still rest my case. I still think my point is valid. Although, I agree in some capacity. The Quarians would definitely be more likely to beat the Geth on the ground than in space.

[TheRevanchist]

I agree, fleet warfare is an entierly different ball game. From what I have seen, Quarians would be pretty damn good in fleet combat. They know everything there is to know about ships. So needless to say their fleet durability would far exceed that of Geth for the simple fact that they are VERY good at making ship repairs faster then most ship crews probably would. couple that with Rael'Zora's type of hacking wepon and the Quarians have pretty much won before it even begins.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Man wrote...

Perhaps disbanding was the wrong word, but they're country was destroyed, the states survived because they were 'reclaimed' by the Union. Y'know, kinda like how the Quarians would 'reclaim' the homeworld. And I never compared the Quarians to the Confederates, so I don't know where you got that from. The Geth HAVEN'T won, they're are still 50,000 Quarian ships with Millions of Quarians (17 million, aka, the population of Greece + Israel) I'd say that between the two, those countries pack serious firepower and they don't even have a flotilla of 50,000 ships!

You do realize that the NORTH won, right? And like the migrant fleet, there were survivors in the south? What you seem to be saying is that because the South was only 'partially' razed, that somehow the South didn't lose....

*I* was comparing the Quarians to the confederates because the confederates lost, just as the Quarians lost. Didn't think it was a tricky analogy....

[Moiaussi]

kylecouch wrote...

I agree, fleet warfare is an entierly different ball game. From what I have seen, Quarians would be pretty damn good in fleet combat. They know everything there is to know about ships. So needless to say their fleet durability would far exceed that of Geth for the simple fact that they are VERY good at making ship repairs faster then most ship crews probably would. couple that with Rael'Zora's type of hacking wepon and the Quarians have pretty much won before it even begins.

Isn't that precisely the same logic that got the Quarians exiled from their home systems?

What Quarian fleet actions have you seen? They have a fleet of old, jury rigged ships. They have no shipyards, bases or colonies. What you seem to be saying is that warships older than WWII vintage would outfight anything from today simply because they are tended by very knowledgable historians who somehow have kept them running this long.

Let me guess, you are one of those people who think the A-Team and MacGuyver were realistic shows?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Isn't that precisely the same logic that got the Quarians exiled from their home systems?

How is that all similar?

The Quarians were certain their original 'failsafe' would work, and that even if it didn't they would win. Again, the suggestion is 'with this new virus, they will win, and if it isn't enough on its own, with the Quarian fleet (essentially the same fleet as 300 years ago), they can't lose.

How is it different 'this time?"

Back then they had much more detailed design notes regarding the Geth. Now they only have what they can piece together from pieces, working with small numbers of Geth at a time (which even in small numbers proved fatal for the researchers, and without Shepard, would have cost them a ship which they couldn't afford to lose).

Also, if they are so wise and all knowing, why were they so quick to write off the best living Geth expert they have? Tali? Why did they need Shepard to point that out to them?

The others have only studied the Geth second hand or in poorly controled lab conditions. Tali has been dealing with them in the field for how long now? And at the end of it, they weren't begging her to stay? Or at least offering her a major advisory role? Even the Admiral who vows continuation of the research taunts Shepard about that rather than acknowledging Tali's ties to Shepard or trying to convince Shepard to help after all?

These are the great 'Geth experts' you would rely on to win a war?

[TheRevanchist]

Moiaussi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

I agree, fleet warfare is an entierly different ball game. From what I have seen, Quarians would be pretty damn good in fleet combat. They know everything there is to know about ships. So needless to say their fleet durability would far exceed that of Geth for the simple fact that they are VERY good at making ship repairs faster then most ship crews probably would. couple that with Rael'Zora's type of hacking wepon and the Quarians have pretty much won before it even begins.

Isn't that precisely the same logic that got the Quarians exiled from their home systems?

What Quarian fleet actions have you seen? They have a fleet of old, jury rigged ships. They have no shipyards, bases or colonies. What you seem to be saying is that warships older than WWII vintage would outfight anything from today simply because they are tended by very knowledgable historians who somehow have kept them running this long.

Let me guess, you are one of those people who think the A-Team and MacGuyver were realistic shows?

I fail to see how that relates to how the Quarians lost Rannoch. Conversly have you seen every single Quarian ship? because unless you have you can't simply assume that all of their ships are old junkers. They know what they are doing and they are probably in damn good shape.

As for your last comment I am not even responding to such insults.

[upsettingshorts]

The problem with the Quarians in warfare is spelled out by two of the characters in the Flotilla:
Kal'Reagor points out that Tali has only been with special ops forces, and doesn't realize how quickly the bulk of their forces can and would run into huge problems with casualties from compromised suits.
And one of the more militant Admirals makes a point that if they're going to fight the Reapers they need a homeworld to "shield their noncombatants." This combined with the fact the Quarians are crammed into ships like sardines means that there will be lots of collateral damage if the Quarian Fleet engages the enemy. Either that or all the civilians will be herded into an even smaller number of ships and hidden with no protection.

Bad, bad news. The Quarians are in terrible shape. Xen knows this and is trying to develop a cunning plan - which may work or blow up in her face. Koris knows this and wants to work towards peace. The other Admiral - same as the one above - whose name I forgot seems to want the homeworld back but doesn't really have a plan on how to get it.

The Quarians would, more or less by their own admission, be huge underdogs in a Geth War. They would need an edge. Or two. Personally I think a negotiated peace is a far more likely and easier path towards reclaiming their homeworld than trying to fight the Geth in an offensive war when they couldn't even beat the Geth in a defensive war with fewer disadvantages than they have now.

Historically most wars have had vastly more wounded than killed.  And that is among humans with relatively normal immune systems, fighting on their homeworld with other humans.  The Quarians, with their extreme immuno deficiency, would lose incalculable numbers of soldiers, marines, and sailors, to simple infections and allergic reactions at a pace that would undoubtedly deplete their forces at a rate unheard of in real world warfare.  Where would they move and treat the wounded?  How would they keep them safe?  How long would it take to repair their suits and send them back into action?  The Quarians are a logistical nightmare.  And what about replacing the dead?  Training new soldiers takes a long time.  I haven't even mentioned stuff like "Quarians need to eat" and "Geth can fight in vaccuum."  The only way the Quarians win is with a quick, decisive victory, a war of attrition will result in their annihilation. 

On the other hand the Geth are synthetic, they don't need to do much of anything with incapacitated units.  Heck for them "redeploying the wounded" more or less means "recycling" - they dont have to train new Geth either, just upload some software and you've got a veteran killing machine.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

Their position was tactically worse then.



It's strategically worse now.

[Water Dumple]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Their position was tactically worse then.

It's strategically worse now.

Potentially the main reason why I think peace is the only way to reclaim the Homeworld without unwonted loss of life. It's only barely feasible, and it's not like there can be any "revenge" on the Geth. They do not experience physical pain.

[upsettingshorts]

Contained in my previous post. Primarily, but not limited to, logistics.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Quarians were certain their original 'failsafe' would work, and that even if it didn't they would win.

Those are two very big assumptions on your part. I doubt the quarians certain of anything except the potential danger.

They were certain enough to try it instead of attempting peace and/or withdrawing as many civilians as they could first and using the code as a last choice rather than first. In other words securing as much as possible first instead of starting with the hail mary.

Besides I am pretty sure Tali said something about them being certain it would work in ME1.

Regardless, they have no more reason to believe it would work now than they did then, and if anything they have less reason. Again, they have less data to work with this time.

[Water Dumple]

Where is the information about this backup code? Must have missed it, or is it in one of the novels?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Edit

Versus the geth the quarians were in a much worse position during the Morning War than they would be now. Back then the geth literally had them surrounded. The geth were part of their infrastructure, including their military. This ensured that when the geth stopped obeying quarian commands that the quarian civilization in its entirety was plunged into chaos.

Edit #2

Also, the quarians do not need to fight a ground war. As such we don't need to worry about suit ruptures. The quarians only need to defeat the geth in space, something they are equipped well enough to at least think about. If they can do that then they've won. Kal'Reegar never needs to even fire his gun.

1) Not really. Even though the Quarians were technically surrounded, the Geth had showed no signs of hostility. The kill command was a kill command... a self destruct command. The society would have been in the same situation as if the Geth just stopped working, since the command didn't control them, it was intended to destroy.

If control commands would work, why wouldn't they already have been being used given that was the default situation? The Geth under control?

2) Why would the Quarians be able to win in space now, with essentially the same ships with only jury rigged modifications, if they couldn't win in space before? If the could win in space before, why did they have to leave? There is no need to become a migrant fleet or avoid settling out of fear of Geth reprisal if you control space.

If they can win space battles with hacking, then if you are still pro human you *really* need to back the Geth, because th Quarians can do that, they could develop the ability to hack every other race's control systems.

At the very least you have to make sure you can get a copy so you can develop a counter pronto!

[scotchtape622]

I believe Tali put it correctly (if I remember right) when saying:

(not an exact quote) "The Quarians made a mistake in creating the Geth, but they were right for trying to disable them once they started thinking for themselves."



Despite what some may think, all other options that "Geth Sympathizers" have mentioned that the Quarians could have done, have been made in retrospect, and are inaccurate. The Quarian's actions in the Morning War were the only strategically viable options.