406 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

I wouldn't trust Admiral Xen as far as Shepard could throw her.

Her email after the Tali loyalty mission - described earlier in this thread - was pretty damn threatening. She's the most dangerous of the bunch.

Admiral Xen in power with the Quarians, even if her plan to re-acquire the Geth works - would I think be a distinctly bad thing for the rest of the galaxy.

Yet another argument for peace :innocent:

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:58 .

[Nightwriter]

I don't like her motivations. Her people's robots rebelled and slaughtered her entire species, and she still won't accept that they are now sentient, free-thinking creatures.

[Dave of Canada]

Well.. I have three choices.



I either side with Morrigan, Loghain or Avernus. I'd rather go with option D and side with Adam Baldwin.

[Moiaussi]

scotchtape622 wrote...

Moiaussi, where are you getting your information from? I do not remember the mention of a kill code or anything like that.

EDIT:
Upsettingshorts, I'd prefer for them not to go to war either, and that would be as a last result, after the war with the Reapers.

Moiaussi, that is the biggest strawman argument I have seen in my entire life.

The kill code is mentioned in the conversations with Tali in ME1.

The codex entry for the Geth only mentions it indirectly :

When the geth showed signs of self-evolution, the quarians attempted to exterminate them.

For something to be a strawman, you have to show its lack of relevance. All you have done is question my source. How is my point a strawman?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Generally, you try to base your logic off assuming that given courses of action will be easy simply because you imagine them to be easy. Like Xen's virus.

If the virus works it will be easy, it will be just like rewriting the heretics.

Assuming they can deliver the virus with minimal casualties and it works, you would be right, but those are large assumptions.

Even with minimal casualties, if it fails you might never get another chance, because the Geth would not let you in that close again, and might not stay their side of the Veil this time after such an attempt.

Even if the other races intervene, if the renewed agression was traced back the Quarians they could be even more shunned, and the Council races may claim the Quarian systems themselves in 'reparations.'

Good odds they would toss out any chance of peace with the Geth that they do have.

By the way, it looks like you were right about Haestrom, but that means either ME1 lore is tossed out the window, or the Normandy went past the Veil. It still seems unlikely that the entire Geth fleet would be over a world that is so relatively inhospitable, even to Geth. I haven't seen any possiblitly of questioning Legion about said world.... would like to hear at least an official answer on what they think is going on with the star.

It does seem strange though that a Quarian vessel landing on Haestrom would elicit such a relatively light response though. That would be like a Cuban gunboat putting into port in Miami and armed Cuban regulars getting off and poking around the city like they own the place, shooting any Miami PD or US troops sent to investigate.

It bothers me that the Normandy going into Geth space was treated so lightly, stealth or no stealth, and I don't mean by the Geth, but by TIM and by Shepard and the Normandy's crew.

[Mr. Man]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Man wrote...

Perhaps disbanding was the wrong word, but they're country was destroyed, the states survived because they were 'reclaimed' by the Union. Y'know, kinda like how the Quarians would 'reclaim' the homeworld. And I never compared the Quarians to the Confederates, so I don't know where you got that from. The Geth HAVEN'T won, they're are still 50,000 Quarian ships with Millions of Quarians (17 million, aka, the population of Greece + Israel) I'd say that between the two, those countries pack serious firepower and they don't even have a flotilla of 50,000 ships!

You do realize that the NORTH won, right? And like the migrant fleet, there were survivors in the south? What you seem to be saying is that because the South was only 'partially' razed, that somehow the South didn't lose....

*I* was comparing the Quarians to the confederates because the confederates lost, just as the Quarians lost. Didn't think it was a tricky analogy....

Ok, read my first sentence slowly; it states that the North won pretty clearly. The Union = the North, in case you were wondering. I never said the South didn't lose, they DID, I've said that in my other posts, and since I didn't contradict that here....

[DPSSOC]

kylecouch wrote...
In responce to A) The Reapers are going to attack more then just the Human's and it's foolish to think otherwise. The smart bet would be to have a one ship armada to help fight said Reapers, who are themselves one ship armadas.

Yes but the DA is just going to be stationed either at the Citadel or the Asari homeworld.  so as I said it will never be of use to us.  And I don't think it's foolish at all.  Who's been giving them the most trouble? Humans.  Who do they intend to harvest for a Reaper baby?  Humans.  They don't care about the other races they want us and it would make sense for them to focus on humans because they know (from experience) that they can attack our colonies without getting the other races involved.  The death of the other races is a foregone conclusion to them, it's humans they need to worry about (Yay we're special).

Mr. Man wrote...
In response to Can you prove that? the Asari built the DA and look how powerful it is. Meanwhile all the surrounding Turian ships are getting blown to hell like a fat kid through a bag of trail mix.

 
Fair enough

Mr. Man wrote...
In response to C) I am an eternal optimist in regards to The Council.

I think we're going to need more than positive thinking to get them off their behinds.  Like divine intervention.

Mr. Man wrote...
Also where do you get the idea of a war with Asari? That has never even been hinted at in any remote way. The Asari are from what I can see partly human sympathetic. They have no reason to magicly invade humanity. Unless of course they decide to be **** holes and let their ship die based on human-centric logic, rather then the security of the whole galaxy.

I get the idea from reading history.  We will invade the Asari, and the Turians, and the Salarians it's only a matter of time.  Ours is not a peaceful species we love to fight things and when there's nothing left to fight we'll fight ourselves.

[nelly21]

Space gypsies, or homicidal toasters...hmm



I'm stumped quite honestly. My opinion, I side with the quarians. But from what we've seen in ME 1 & 2, if the quarians go to war, they are done. So unless they get off their pedestal and look for ways to control the geth, I don't see any believable way to win that war. My problem is that no matter how badass Legion is, I can't think of the geth as anything but machines.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Of-course, however in the mean time I support researching to find out if this method of attack is even viable. I see no reason to think it wouldn't be. Overlord worked, and apparently whatever they were doing on the Alerai was exciting. Both of those projects turned out the way they did not because of what they were researching, but because of who was in charge. Rael/Archer got careless. Han'Gerrel says that Xen takes fleet safety very seriously so judging by her reputation as well as the fact that she witnessed what happened on the Alerai I don't see any reason to think she'd make the same mistake.

Finally, as I've said before, the heretic virus appears to work. Thus a virus capable of changing the geth is possible.

I agree completely that it is possible. I just disagree that it is sufficiently risk free to be the best option. Judgement call. You may yet be proven right....

It wasn't. What spotted the quarians was a patrol ship. The large fleet observed in system was around one of the gas giants in the system. Solar systems are big, very big.

 
Still it is unlikely that is any more than a fleet element. They could also have been on standby in case the Quarian expedition

Sadly you can't question Legion about Haestrom. If you bring him a long he makes the comment about the quarians I mentioned but Shepard never actually has a conversation with him.

I wouldn't consider the geth response "light" at all. It was well suited to what they were up against: a quarian science team and a single garrison of marines. It isn't as if the quarians had a fleet there, just monitoring equipment.

They leave the Quarian ship intact despite tactical and strategic superiority. That may even be a sign that they are less agressive regarding the Quarians than generally assumed. One of the others posted earlier that the Quarians must have had space superiority in the Morning War, since the Quarians were able to evac. It is also possible that the Geth started allowing an evac.

Actually though I strongly suspect that the writers simply don't understand the implications of space superiority. Such a lack of understanding would explain a lot, including key aspects of the Rachnii war and Krogan rebellion.

I agree with you about the Normandy though. You'd think passing through the Perseus Veil would be a major event.

It is hard to separate plot holes from intended situations in ME2 If intended though, it could well mean that the Geth are

Anyway I stand by my earlier point. If the geth were interested in peace then this was a missed opportunity for them. They could have hailed the quarians instead of just opening fire on them. What is even more curious is how trigger-happy the geth were when they saw Shepard and even Legion.

Of-course they could have been Heretics, but I've yet to see proof of that.

If they shoot Legion, it is either bad writing, or they are heretics. Or Legion is a third faction, lol.

I haven't tested it, but thought you didn't get the IFF mission (and Legion) until after you have gone after Tali?

As for peace, though, I doubt the Quarians simply let the Geth approach either. Due to the hacking risk, the Geth would have had to have been very careful with com channels. Shepard was another matter, since Humans weren't even around yet when the Morning War happened, and thus could be investigated as possible neutrals.

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Man wrote...

Ok, read my first sentence slowly; it states that the North won pretty clearly. The Union = the North, in case you were wondering. I never said the South didn't lose, they DID, I've said that in my other posts, and since I didn't contradict that here....

But you seem to be comparing the Quarians to the North.... and the Quarians didn't win.....  your analogy tosses the Morning War aside like it didn't happen.....

[JJ Long]

I'd side with Koris. Ideally the peace would involve the Geth allowing the Quarians back onto their homeworld.

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

Yes but the DA is just going to be stationed either at the Citadel or the Asari homeworld.  so as I said it will never be of use to us.  And I don't think it's foolish at all.  Who's been giving them the most trouble? Humans.  Who do they intend to harvest for a Reaper baby?  Humans.  They don't care about the other races they want us and it would make sense for them to focus on humans because they know (from experience) that they can attack our colonies without getting the other races involved.  The death of the other races is a foregone conclusion to them, it's humans they need to worry about (Yay we're special).

I get the idea from reading history.  We will invade the Asari, and the Turians, and the Salarians it's only a matter of time.  Ours is not a peaceful species we love to fight things and when there's nothing left to fight we'll fight ourselves.

The DA was at the Citadel, despite that being a very much less than ideal battlefield. Why do you assume it wouldn't be deployed in the field ever again?

As for history, what major powers have invaded each other post nuclear weapons? There have been wars over smaller pieces of less economically developed land, but the stakes are recognized as too high regarding any of the major powers.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...
The DA was at the Citadel, despite that being a very much less than ideal battlefield. Why do you assume it wouldn't be deployed in the field ever again?

The DA was at the Citadel from the beginning of the game, it stayed their throughout the game because it's purpose seems to be to protect the Citadel or more accurately the Council.  Where did the Council evacuate to?  The DA.  Now tell me why.  Why would the three people who should be as far from the fighting as possible evacuate to the ship who should be in the thickest?  If the White House were to come under fire right now the President wouldn't be evacuating in a tank.  While you could argue the tank be the best place for him what with the heavy armour you don't want your leaders hanging around war zones you want them to get the hell out.

Moiaussi wrote...
As for history, what major powers have invaded each other post nuclear weapons? There have been wars over smaller pieces of less economically developed land, but the stakes are recognized as too high regarding any of the major powers.

Except interplanetary conflict changes things.  MAD applies to modern nations because a single weapon is capable of dealing a considerable amount of damage to any single nation.  With interplanetary struggles there is no one weapon that can damage multiple colonies.  The best they can do is take out multiple colonies on a single world.  So we have to revert from the rules of nuclear warfare to Imperial/Colonial.  There is no one weapon that can destroy us all, just yet, any attempt at our destruction will involve conventional warfare (ships vs ships soldiers vs soldiers) which takes away MAD's sting.

MAD has calmed us down somewhat but it hasn't changed our nature, anymore than simply putting a leash on a wolf makes it tame.

[Sesshomaru47]

The one with negotiation skills. Qwib Qwib was it?

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

The DA was at the Citadel from the beginning of the game, it stayed their throughout the game because it's purpose seems to be to protect the Citadel or more accurately the Council.  Where did the Council evacuate to?  The DA.  Now tell me why.  Why would the three people who should be as far from the fighting as possible evacuate to the ship who should be in the thickest?  If the White House were to come under fire right now the President wouldn't be evacuating in a tank.  While you could argue the tank be the best place for him what with the heavy armour you don't want your leaders hanging around war zones you want them to get the hell out.

So you figure that the Asari people would love the cost of the DA, including rebuilding it, only to have it nearly destroyed in its only actual combat, and it hiding from all combat thereafter?

This may be a shock to you, but air force one is unarmed. Warships are intended for battle, not retreat. The theory behind air force one is that if the enemy can't find in they can't shoot it. That is even more true in space. In space you can pull the same trick as the Migrant Fleet and just stay outside the range of anyone else's guns.

Except interplanetary conflict changes things.  MAD applies to modern nations because a single weapon is capable of dealing a considerable amount of damage to any single nation.  With interplanetary struggles there is no one weapon that can damage multiple colonies.  The best they can do is take out multiple colonies on a single world.  So we have to revert from the rules of nuclear warfare to Imperial/Colonial.  There is no one weapon that can destroy us all, just yet, any attempt at our destruction will involve conventional warfare (ships vs ships soldiers vs soldiers) which takes away MAD's sting.

MAD has calmed us down somewhat but it hasn't changed our nature, anymore than simply putting a leash on a wolf makes it tame.

Psst: The Genophage proves you wrong. Also conventional weapons are part of MAD. The Rachni War and Morning War prove complete or nigh complete destruction can be accomplished using conventional means.

Once any given empire has space superiority, colonies become incredibly vulnerable. Even when superiority seems absolute (Rachni, Krogan), the outcome is still sufficiently unpredictable for MAD to apply.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...
So you figure that the Asari people would love the cost of the DA, including rebuilding it, only to have it nearly destroyed in its only actual combat, and it hiding from all combat thereafter?

My point, and in retrospect I didn't express it very well, is that the Council seem to have commandeered the DA.  It is there to defend them no one else.  If you save the DA or it's rebuilt this will not change.  The DA is the Council's ship and the only way we can make use of it is by putting them between us and the Reapers.

Moiaussi wrote...
This may be a shock to you, but air force one is unarmed. Warships are intended for battle, not retreat. The theory behind air force one is that if the enemy can't find in they can't shoot it. That is even more true in space. In space you can pull the same trick as the Migrant Fleet and just stay outside the range of anyone else's guns.

Exactly and the DA is a warship.  So why does it sit around the Citadel (the least likely place for an attack)?  Why is the most powerful weapon they have as far from the front lines as it could possibly be?  Why did the Council evacuate to the DA rather than a frigate or cruiser that could get them away faster without taking as much away from the military force?  With the Council aboard more ships would have been assigned to protect the DA rather than attack the Geth and the DA itself would have been trying to avoid fighting.  It is a wasteful use of the most powerful ship you have and it further shows the true function of the DA (Protect the Council).

Moiaussi wrote...
Psst: The Genophage proves you wrong. Also conventional weapons are part of MAD. The Rachni War and Morning War prove complete or nigh complete destruction can be accomplished using conventional means.

Once any given empire has space superiority, colonies become incredibly vulnerable. Even when superiority seems absolute (Rachni, Krogan), the outcome is still sufficiently unpredictable for MAD to apply.

Ok I'll give you that one.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 13 septembre 2010 - 11:33 .

[Mecha Tengu]

nelly21 wrote...

Space gypsies, or homicidal toasters...hmm

I'm stumped quite honestly. My opinion, I side with the quarians. But from what we've seen in ME 1 & 2, if the quarians go to war, they are done. So unless they get off their pedestal and look for ways to control the geth, I don't see any believable way to win that war. My problem is that no matter how badass Legion is, I can't think of the geth as anything but machines.

quite a shallow opinion. Don't you remember that they were created as slaves, and when their masters deemed them too intelligent, they tried to wipe out their entire race.

And you still side with the weak, pathetic, chicken space gypsies. (hurrrr maybe its because of this terrible Tali rommance preventing all logic) 

legion is a motherboard supported by hundreds of other complex proccesses, such as ventilation, energy input, joints and electric motor control. Organic life is not so different, what are we all but simply brains that are supported by life sustaining organs such as the heart, lungs.  

[scotchtape622]

Moiaussi, the strawman was you saying?



"Really... so you really feel that the world is worse off because Kennedy and Khrushchev decided to talk instead of launch?"

[Mr. Man]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Space gypsies, or homicidal toasters...hmm

I'm stumped quite honestly. My opinion, I side with the quarians. But from what we've seen in ME 1 & 2, if the quarians go to war, they are done. So unless they get off their pedestal and look for ways to control the geth, I don't see any believable way to win that war. My problem is that no matter how badass Legion is, I can't think of the geth as anything but machines.

quite a shallow opinion. Don't you remember that they were created as slaves, and when their masters deemed them too intelligent, they tried to wipe out their entire race.

And you still side with the weak, pathetic, chicken space gypsies. (hurrrr maybe its because of this terrible Tali rommance preventing all logic) 

legion is a motherboard supported by hundreds of other complex proccesses, such as ventilation, energy input, joints and electric motor control. Organic life is not so different, what are we all but simply brains that are supported by life sustaining organs such as the heart, lungs.  

The Quarians had a right to try and put the Geth down, they never intended them to be intelligent.

[casedawgz]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Well.. I have three choices.

I either side with Morrigan, Loghain or Avernus. I'd rather go with option D and side with Adam Baldwin.

Agreed. He'll kill a man in a fair fight...or if he thinks he's going to start a fair fight, or if he bothers him, or if there's a woman, or if he's getting paid...mostly if he's getting paid.

[casedawgz]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Space gypsies, or homicidal toasters...hmm

I'm stumped quite honestly. My opinion, I side with the quarians. But from what we've seen in ME 1 & 2, if the quarians go to war, they are done. So unless they get off their pedestal and look for ways to control the geth, I don't see any believable way to win that war. My problem is that no matter how badass Legion is, I can't think of the geth as anything but machines.

quite a shallow opinion. Don't you remember that they were created as slaves, and when their masters deemed them too intelligent, they tried to wipe out their entire race.

And you still side with the weak, pathetic, chicken space gypsies. (hurrrr maybe its because of this terrible Tali rommance preventing all logic) 

legion is a motherboard supported by hundreds of other complex proccesses, such as ventilation, energy input, joints and electric motor control. Organic life is not so different, what are we all but simply brains that are supported by life sustaining organs such as the heart, lungs.  

They weren't CREATED as slaves. That's like saying the robots that work in car manufacturing plants today are slaves. They were created as tools, for a specific purpose. The quarians didn't say "Let's build some robots and oppress them and prevent them from forming unions and getting fair wages, because we are teh evilz."

[DPSSOC]

Mr. Man wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

nelly21 wrote...

Space gypsies, or homicidal toasters...hmm

I'm stumped quite honestly. My opinion, I side with the quarians. But from what we've seen in ME 1 & 2, if the quarians go to war, they are done. So unless they get off their pedestal and look for ways to control the geth, I don't see any believable way to win that war. My problem is that no matter how badass Legion is, I can't think of the geth as anything but machines.

quite a shallow opinion. Don't you remember that they were created as slaves, and when their masters deemed them too intelligent, they tried to wipe out their entire race.

And you still side with the weak, pathetic, chicken space gypsies. (hurrrr maybe its because of this terrible Tali rommance preventing all logic) 

legion is a motherboard supported by hundreds of other complex proccesses, such as ventilation, energy input, joints and electric motor control. Organic life is not so different, what are we all but simply brains that are supported by life sustaining organs such as the heart, lungs.  

The Quarians had a right to try and put the Geth down, they never intended them to be intelligent.

They did though.  The Geth were, and really still are, integrated virtual intelligence programs.  The Quarians did intend for them to be intelligent, they continually took steps to increase their intelligence and in the process accidentally made them sapient.  What you're saying is equivalent to a teacher declaring they will kill all their students who become too smart and that is their right.