406 réponses à ce sujet

[Kavadas]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually, I spoke at length on behalf of the Geth during discussions on these boards of ME1, that we were simply assuming that they were all hostile and that we should investigate what their politics are really like before jumping into full out war with them. The same rhetoric the Quarian admirals were using was used by those in favour of war, too, namely that we (the Alliance) now have the largest fleet (ignoring the fact that that is only the largest known fleet, and that it is only largest by default. Appearantly the Migrant Fleet now consider themselves bigger than the surviving Alliance navy. Seems unlikely, especially in terms of actual warships, considering they have had nowhere to build any actual new ships.

When I said I/we I wasn't referring to the Alliance Navy, just Shepard.  Frankly, the Alliance has absolutely no business or motivation in militarily aiding the Quarians against the Geth.

As for genocide, you completely ignore the fact that the Quarians tried that first. They tossed aside even the thought of talking or working out equality in favour of the attempted mass destruction of every existing Geth. The Geth were defending themselves. Appearantly, you think the Geth should just have laid down and died, even though the Quarians were the actual agressors

They're robots.  I don't regard them as highly as organic life, sorry.  The Geth are hardly even a culture.  There's no art, there's no real descension when "building concensus", no single Geth has a mind, and no single Geth can ever make a difference and persuade the others out of a decision.

They're robots.  When your toaster's heating element won't turn off because the timer is broken what's the first thing you do?

Unplug it.

Aside from all of that, it's cute that you justify genocide on a planetary scale with something that didn't happen.

Destroyed for what they have done....based on that logic, if your Shep killed the Rachnii queen, Humanity should be destroyed for what he had done, as should all Council races, regardless. Humans should be destroyed anyway (based on that logic) due to past human attempts at genocide on Earth. Krogan should be for their attempt at taking over. Bit nihilistic and self defeating, there, don't you think? Kill everyone, including us, who has committed or attempted genocide in the past, regardless of reasons or any other logic?

Between the Hague and multiple wars we, humanity, do have an idealistic tendency to pursue and stop genocide where Mutually Assured Destruction policies don't prohibit us (like with Stalin or Polpot during the Cold War).

Once operations become litte/no risk we generally have no problem throwing some airpower at problems and we even get results sometimes. 

But taking the twentieth century as a whole, you'll notice that U.S. and European pursuit of war criminals skyrocketed after the Soviet Union fell because the consequences to our actions, for better or worse, fell with them.

We did it in Bosnia, Serbia, Somalia, and Iraq.  We were successful in three out of four.

Modifié par Kavadas, 10 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Yeti13]

holy jeez this thread has lit up.



First Legion said that 5% of all geth Became heretics. So think about all the geth you ever fought and all the geth that fought in the battle of the citadel, that was only 5%. Your mind can work out how big the True geth fleet would be



Secondly, the Quarians should not be blamed for the morning war, yes they tried to wipe out the geth before they became too smart. Was it wrong, yes but we would have done the same thing. Quarians have payed extremely for their mistake and none deny what they did. Yet we cant even begin to comprehend what happened to them, they lost billions in the morning war. Humans have never even came close to that number.



Should they sue for peace yes, The geth still acknowledge the Quarians as their makers, and without the Quarians the geth would have never know sentience.



On the geth side of things, they didn't wipe out the heretics because their belief in sovereign wasn't wrong it was just different. Only when they noticed the heretics becoming hostile did they decide to take action. They didn't send the fleet because it probably would have sparked a war with citadel space

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

It makes no sense that they would have nothing but the drop ships, i.e. relatively lightly armed troop transports the Heretics had.

I never said that was the extent of their fleet. What I wanted to know is where the "hundreds of thousands" number was coming from. Nothing in game indicates that. They might have a large fleet, sure, but I doubt it is bigger than the quarians. Keep in mind as well that a significant proportion of the geth's 'manpower' must be devoted to clean-up on the quarian worlds and the construction of their dyson sphere. In the end their fleet might not be much bigger than the heretic fleet (a purely military force that didn't need to worry about building a dyson sphere or cleaning up planets).

Why do you doubt it would be bigger than that of the Quarians? You are saying that the Quarians have a superior fleet but ran anyway?

Or that the Quarians have some top secret shipbuilding program, despite no colonies providing them resources?

The Geth have had 300 years and the Quarians have made no secret of wanting to retake their systems by force. 300 years is more than enough time to build both a large navy and a dyson sphere, clean up planets, etc.

Speaking of which, depending on the nature of the clean up, the Quarian home systems might no longer be the same Quarian biology-friendly place that they remember. If that is the case, they are risking everything for systems that might be just as hard to terraform as anything they might settle outside the Perseus Veil.

[Xivai]

I find it ironic. In dune (prequel) humans are enslaved by machines. So eventually they are taught by the machines to think like them, and they rise up against the machines. This is okay, but when it happens in reverse it's wrong?



I can't see how anyone can justify going to war with the Geth or worse enslaving them. At this point they are defined as artificial intelligence. They should be treated with the same respect (taking into account cultural differences) as any biological being. The only thing is they walk around in metal bodies and can communicate faster ect. That's it, but oh thats fine we should just go and wipe them out because they aren't us. I can understand if they were a threat, but at this point most of them are mechanical monks in space. They live a contemplative life, and ironically their core duty to help the Quarians is still very much there, and they clean the planet. All the while trying to attain spiritual enlightenment. It would be like going and bombing a monastery full of monks (granted technologically advanced ones with superior numbers).



At this point it looks like the Geth are waiting fot eh Quariens to make a move on the peace front. They have displaced themselves from the planet, fixed said planet, and now wait the Quarians to come to consensus. Quib-Quib all the way. Most Quarians look like spoiled and greedy little children in retrospect.

[Spartas Husky]

I never understood, how people sympathize with the quarians...



Is like saying, we genetically engineer human slaves, only to have them rebelled when they decide they dont want the life we chose for them.... and it was wrong of them to seek freedom?....



The slaves killed billions of free humans..... hmmmmm but not before the masters massacred billions of slaves just for asking about if they "had a soul"...



Creepy, very creepy.

[Yeti13]

Were talking about machines, not human slaves. and i never said that it was right just that they acted exactly like every other single sentient race would have done.



I love the geth, look at my gamer pic, but i also love the Quarians, they are both technical geniuses and just all around awesome.



Every other race "enslaves machines" but those machines aren't sentient they don't know they are being abused. Look at the gambling machine story from ME1, it tried to kill Shepard so Shepard had to disable it.



Look at Dr. Quain, the alliance was trying to develop AI's to try and gain some control over the Geth. Don't blame the Quarians for acting Human

[Sklibbles]

If they go to war, the quarians face a very solid chance of being wiped out. Rewriting them seems kind of like creating them in the first place... there's that chance they evolve out of servitude into sentience. Peace seems the most desirable option given the nature of the beast in this particular scenario. They may never get their homeworld back, but it's their fault they lost it in the first place.

[DaVanguard]

Im with qwib-qwib

[Moiaussi]

Kavadas wrote...

When I said I/we I wasn't referring to the Alliance Navy, just Shepard.  Frankly, the Alliance has absolutely no business or motivation in militarily aiding the Quarians against the Geth.

Depends... if the Geth reacted badly enough and were strong enough, the Alliance might feel obligated to intervene, especially if the brass couldn't comprehend the concept the the Heretics were a separate political entity.

They're robots.  I don't regard them as highly as organic life, sorry.  The Geth are hardly even a culture.  There's no art, there's no real descension when "building concensus", no single Geth has a mind, and no single Geth can ever make a difference and persuade the others out of a decision.

And you know there is no art, how? No one of your brain cells can rebel against the others. Your body does things as a unit. Should you be destroyed because based on your definition your brain has no dissention?

Btw, there is dissention. In Legion's loyalty mission there are votes for reprogramming and votes against. They ask Shepard because there is sufficient dissention that they are asking outside advice.

They're robots.  When your toaster's heating element won't turn off because the timer is broken what's the first thing you do?

Unplug it.

Aside from all of that, it's cute that you justify genocide on a planetary scale with something that didn't happen.

You unplug it because it is just a toaster. Lame horses get put down too. If your car breaks down and it is fixable, you don't shoot it.

These are not 'just robots' though. Free will and sentience are not malfunctions!

No clue what you are talking about in terms of things that 'didn't happen.' Are you saying the Quarians didn't fight the Geth?

Between the Hague and multiple wars we, humanity, do have an idealistic tendency to pursue and stop genocide where Mutually Assured Destruction policies don't prohibit us (like with Stalin or Polpot during the Cold War).

Once operations become litte/no risk we generally have no problem throwing some airpower at problems and we even get results sometimes. 

But taking the twentieth century as a whole, you'll notice that U.S. and European pursuit of war criminals skyrocketed after the Soviet Union fell because the consequences to our actions, for better or worse, fell with them.

We did it in Bosnia, Serbia, Somalia, and Iraq.  We were successful in three out of four.

And yet, you condemn the Geth for defending themselves against genocide.

Ignoring the airpower comment ... no clue at all what you are getting at there other than that some air force generals have too much influence, something that isn't relevant to this thread.

If you are talking about pursuit of war criminals, keep in mind that civilians dieing during a war is not in and of itself a crime. If any of those civilians in those engagements were possible carriers of a virus capable of wipeing out all other races/factions other than their own, the rules of engagement might have been different.

The Quarians were using WMD's. That often changes rules of engagement. Not to mention there is no suggestion at all that the Quarians ever gave up plotting genocide of the Geth. It is also interesting that you seem to be accusing 'toasters' of genocide. Are you conceding the concept of Geth sentience or complexity?

Also, does pursuit of so called war criminals still apply after 300 years?

[Spartas Husky]

Shandepared wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Is like saying, we genetically engineer human slaves, only to have them rebelled when they decide they dont want the life we chose for them.... and it was wrong of them to seek freedom?....

It's not like that at all, actually.

Is not?, we "create" another specie, with limited thinking capacity, only for them to evolve on their own, and achieve higher intelligence than "we" wanted.

Then they try to seek freedom, and they are the bad guys ....why? because they kill many for their freedom?, after many of their own were wiped out when the "command" was sent to "decomittion" all "slaves" before they could revolt?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Why do you doubt it would be bigger than that of the Quarians?

The geth have a fleet but the quarians are a fleet. 50,000 is a huge number, especially for a navy. Granted the entire thing is probably not significantly armed for combat worthy, but if even only a small percentage of it is that is still a big fleet. The geth fleet described near Haestrom wasn't even nearly that big.

And again, if the Quarian fleet is bigger in combat strength than that of the Geth, why didn't they win 300 years ago, before the Geth had 300 years to build up and advance?

Unless the Quarians are going to suicide oceanliners filled with their own people into Geth ships, does the full number of ships really even count?

It wasn't Geth home fleet ships near Haestrom.

Regardless, Geth don't need civilian vessels? If they are 'cleaning up planets', don't they need to move a lot of equipment and resources for that, requiring a 'civilian' fleet?

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Is not?, we "create" another specie, with limited thinking capacity, only for them to evolve on their own, and achieve higher intelligence than "we" wanted.

No, the quarians built machines. They did not create an intelligent species. The geth becoming sentient was an accident, and oversight in the way they were programmed. Once the quarians realized what the geth were becoming they became justifiably afraid and acted to defend themselves against a grave threat.

This would be like every car suddenly gaining a mind so governments and car manufacturers issue a recall and then the cars go a violent rampage.

Pretty sure I asked you this last time this topic came up, way back before ME2, but if we met and I punched you, or better yet shot you, you are saying I could claim self defence because the fact that if I failed to kill you, you would consider me hostile and act accordingly proves you were dangerous and therefore had to be killed?

If the 'malfunction' was sentience, and the cars were otherwise showing no hostility, then they might be justified.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[ZehnWaters]

Spartas Husky wrote...

Then they try to seek freedom, and they are the bad guys ....why? because they kill many for their freedom?, after many of their own were wiped out when the "command" was sent to "decomittion" all "slaves" before they could revolt?

Did the Quarians ever even get the chance to start killing the Geth when they realized they were sentient?  I don't remember them getting that chance.  They got the order to kill them, but the Geth realized what was going on and started killing first.  Both were acting out of fear.  The Quarians had no idea what the Geth would do upon gaining sentience, their reaction was understandable.

[Moiaussi]

ZehnWaters wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

Then they try to seek freedom, and they are the bad guys ....why? because they kill many for their freedom?, after many of their own were wiped out when the "command" was sent to "decomittion" all "slaves" before they could revolt?

Did the Quarians ever even get the chance to start killing the Geth when they realized they were sentient?  I don't remember them getting that chance.  They got the order to kill them, but the Geth realized what was going on and started killing first.  Both were acting out of fear.  The Quarians had no idea what the Geth would do upon gaining sentience, their reaction was understandable.

Yes the Quarians did. The opening move was activation of a kill code built into the Geth. The Quarians definately fired the first shot.

Also the Geth's first action was to ask their place in society, not normally a hostile act.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:29 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

The fleet was likely scattered and disorganized at that time. It was comprised of people who were busy fleeing the overrun and bombarded quarian worlds. It would have taken them years to assemble all the survivors into one fleet. The Morning War was more than a fleet battle too: it was a humongous ground war waged on every quarian controlled world. That was where they lost. In space they may not have beaten as badly, thus their ability to escape.

Hello? FTL communications? Not to mention control of space = containment and eventual victory. What you seem to be saying is that the Quarian command, which included Admirals, couldn't coordinate a disbursed fleet, even within a month or two.

Prove it.

How about the fact that those Geth shot at Shepard rather than contact him in a friendly manner? It doesn't fit the storyline at all, unless you figure the Geth suddenly changed their mind.

By the way, why are you trying to use the number of ships at any given system as indicating anything other than the number of ships at that system? You figure the main Geth fleet, which was not related to the Heretic fleet that attacked the Citadel just happened to be flying over Haestrom out on a stroll?

Use a little common sense.

Moiaussi wrote...

Regardless, Geth don't need civilian vessels? If they are 'cleaning up planets', don't they need to move a lot of equipment and resources for that, requiring a 'civilian' fleet?

What?

You were saying that the Quarian fleet size includes a lot of civilian vessels and that is part of why it is so big. You ignore the concept that the Geth would also need transport ships, or ships that are not pure warships. If you are counting the Quarian civilian ships in fleet size, you need to count Geth civilian ships.

[casedawgz]

I love Legion. He's a cool guy. I still don't think I would try to enter large scale, formale negotiations with the geth, because it would probably end badly.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

What reason would you have to believe I had any intent to do you harm? Or that I could do you harm?

Your posts here are a LOT more threatening than anything the Geth said or did. That you could do me harm? If I could shoot you, doesn't that imply you could shoot me first? Hope you are not going to argue that humans can't harm each other....

Note I am not advocating either of us shooting the other, just pointing out the flaws in your logic.

Would you trust them with your children?

Why would sentient cars want to do anything with my children? I don't think I would trust you with my children either. What is your point? Again, should you be shot because I wouldn't trust you, a complete stranger, with my children?

[Moiaussi]

casedawgz wrote...

I love Legion. He's a cool guy. I still don't think I would try to enter large scale, formale negotiations with the geth, because it would probably end badly.

Hasn't the same been said of most foreign nations at least some point in the history of contact with them?

[casedawgz]

Moiaussi wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

I love Legion. He's a cool guy. I still don't think I would try to enter large scale, formale negotiations with the geth, because it would probably end badly.

Hasn't the same been said of most foreign nations at least some point in the history of contact with them?

Most of those nations aren't sentient races of machines.