406 réponses à ce sujet

[xlavaina]

Shandepared wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

Dude, the 50,000 ship Migrant Fleet is supported by ONLY three absolutely critical ships.

Which is why they wouldn't put them near the front-lines.

A fair enough argument. Considering this, it now boils down do how strong the Geth fleet actually is. If the Geth defeat the 50,000 ships, they'll find the liveships anyway and the Geth win. But now that the Quarians can have their targets of value out of harms way (at least temporarily), it is a different story. 

I guess we're back where we started though, because nobody knows how powerful the Geth fleet actually is. Oh well. You acknowledged my point. I am content. 

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

A fair enough argument. Considering this, it now boils down do how strong the Geth fleet actually is.

That is true and I will admit that I don't know how strong the geth are. However I assume one thing: the quarians probably have a reasonable idea. I assume furthermore that the quarians are not stupid and thus that they wouldn't even CONSIDER a conflict unless they had good reason to think they could win.

They have no clue. They have no intel from inside the veil because no non-Geth ships have been there. Any intel the Quarians have is either 300 years old or only relates to the Heretics.

Given they seem to be using the same logic you seem to be 'gosh we have a lot of ships, we are sure to win', they definately are already considering. They are not likely to do so without some sort of edge. They figure they will get one from hacking captured Geth. Have you considered the concept that the Geth would have had a lot of Quarian suits to study? Those are mechanical too... what happens if the Geth hack the Quarians back?

Not saying the Geth have thought of that, but that is the point of MAD. Either side has the potential to be lethal, so both sides have incentive for peace.

This is the same approach I took to the renegade ending for ME1 back in the day. A lot of people argued that a human take-over was suicidal. I understood where they were coming from, but I saw it like this: Udina is not a moron and he would not propose or attempt this coup unless he was quite sure that the Systems Alliance could get a way with it. Turns out he was right.

Have they gotten away with it? The reaper fleet isn't here yet and the Alliance doesn't seem to take them any more seriously than the Council. Under the 'Human supremacy' version, the Asari have given up having a spacefleet and have ceded that responsitiblity to the Turians. The Turians are rebuilting their ships, but it is unlikely they are building at the same rate as if the Asari were rebuilding too.

Humanity is rebuilding, but given noone seems to take the Reapers seriously, noone seems to have the inclination to move to actual wartime production. Since there is no Asari fleet, it is doubtful they would feel any need to build any more than they have to.

So under the 'humans rule' version, there is no Asari fleet, the Turian fleet is understrength, and the Human fleet is passable.

Under the Council version, the Humans are rebuilding but still have incentive because of the other two major fleets, and the Asari still have a fleet and are rebuilding.

Humanity may be a little stronger standing alone, but actually might be weaker (due to lack of political will and less competition), and the Council has less to offer.

The 'shared' version, the total fleet strength is stronger.

If you really do insist on following Machiavelli, at least do so properly. You don't backstab an ally while you are all still facing a common enemy, especially when you don't know the enemy's strength yet.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


They have no clue.

[citation needed]

No more nor less than for your opinion.

Yeah, they own the Citadel and no race can do anything about it except complain. There was no war to retake the Citadel and there never will be. The other races had no choice but to accept because their defeat at the hands of the geth neautralized the military advantages they had over the Systems Alliance. More importantly, they need the Systems Alliance to keep Citadel space safe.

Hello? REAPERS? Let me guess... you have dismissed that claim.... for a pro-human you sound a lot like a certain Turian....

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Hello? REAPERS? Let me guess... you have dismissed that claim.... for a pro-human you sound a lot like a certain Turian....

How so? Please explain this to me.

The Reapers are still coming. You have arranged the scenario with the lowest available fleet strength to counter them.

The Asari navy is gone. The Turian navy may pick up some of the slack, but given the Council position regarding the Reapers, likely not to former combined levels and regardless there is now less shipbuilding capacity because the Asari shipyards will not be producing warships.

The Alliance navy will be weaker, too, since they no longer have the Asari navy to concern them and the Turians will be lower strength for some time. Like the Council, they seem to dismiss the concerns of Reapers (evidence: shunning Shepard).

You also dismiss the Geth as possible allies, likely still dismiss the Rachnii (unless you had a retcon-ish change of heart, they are dead in your playthroughs), and seem to feel the Quarians would be more useful against the Geth (who show no indications of being enemies and if they do ally with the Reapers could still be fought then) than as allies directly against the Reapers.

The only thing I can think of in your favour is using out-of-game logic, in that the ME2 default has the Council dead scenario. Otherwise you seem to be gambling a lot on the lives of everyone... including Humanity.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Reapers are still coming. You have arranged the scenario with the lowest available fleet strength to counter them.

Actually I've caused an arms race between the Turian Hierarchy and Systems Alliance, which will have the exact opposite effect.

Evidence? More specificly, evidence that any such arms races only exists with the Council dead? Given the extent of the losses in the Citadel War, there is more than enough incentive for everyone to look for upgrades.

Garrus has the same cannon to offer whether the Council was saved or left to die.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Evidence? More specificly, evidence that any such arms races only exists with the Council dead?

Sorry, I'm on 360 so I can't dig through the game files for you. However I'm quite positive that you only hear the news report about the turians refusing to abide by old dreadnought limits if the Council is dead. Specifically, the turians state that their reason for expanding their military is precisely because they want additional security due to the deaths of the old Councilors. Thus, an arms race. Unless you feel the Alliance would just ignore this.

The turians are building dreadnoughts, and while this might seem like a really bad thing to the Alliance, those dreadnoughts should be damned useful once the Reapers invade.

Of course they wouldn't be abiding by old DN limits. They need to replace not only their own losses, but the Asari losses. Based on that, at best, you have replaced the Asari navy (relativly human sympathetic) with more Turians (much less human sympathetic).

Is that really an upgrade?

You could be right about it being better against the Reapers after all, but based on what you are saying, it could well  be worse for Humanity in the long run.

There is also the issue of shipbuilding capacity and whether the Turians alone can replace all the losses before the Reapers attack.

[Homebound]

I'll support Korris in his geth peace-talks, and turn Admiral Daro'Xen into my personal Quarian slave who I will do unspeakable things to which may include but not limited to, live target practice.

[Dave of Canada]

Moiaussi wrote...


You could be right about it being better against the Reapers after all, but based on what you are saying, it could well  be worse for Humanity in the long run.

When there's no galaxy due to the Reapers winning, that's probably the worse fate for humanity.

[Moiaussi]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...


You could be right about it being better against the Reapers after all, but based on what you are saying, it could well  be worse for Humanity in the long run.

When there's no galaxy due to the Reapers winning, that's probably the worse fate for humanity.

Fair point, however if the Turian and Alliance fleets don't trust each other, coordination will be more difficult and indoctrination risk will be higher.

Similarly, if the Quarians are busy with the Geth, then neither Quarian nor Geth fleets would be available.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

We don't know how big the asari fleet was or what their losses were. The loss of the Destiny Ascension certainly hurt them, but it was just one ship. The turian empire is massive. Regardless, if you saved the DA all you did was save the Destiny Ascension in place of eight or so Alliance ships, meaning now the Alliance has to rebuild and the other races have no incentive to expand.

I could be right, I could be wrong. I guess we'll have to wait and find out. Regardless this all getting way beyond the point.

None of this should matter to you at the time you make the call to save or sacrifice the DA. All that should matter right hten is stopping Sovereign because if Sovereing wins there will BE NO FUTURE, NO MAYBES, NO "WHAT IF?"'s. It will all simply END.

According to treaty, the Asari fleet was quite substantial. Their losses are sufficient that they cede their responsibilites to the Turians if the DA goes down. Besides the symbolism of the DA, there was also the fact it was a big ticket item and almost certainly 'sold' to the Asari people as undefeatable, and there were likely additional Asari and Turian losses trying to save it and failing.

I agree with you that there was a valid arguement for going straight for Sovereign. I saved the DA for military reasons, though, not political reasons. Namely the fact that shooting the Geth on the way to Sovereign likely wouldn't slow us down and the DA would be useful later if saved.

Regardless (and back on topic), it seems a poor time for the Quarians to pick a fight with the Geth. Even if they do have a working 'kill virus' this time, I still feel that the overall odds against the Reapers are better with the Geth available, even if the Quarians are not.

I am still not sure whether the 'kill' or 'reprogram' option was the best for dealing with the Heretics, though... I didn't really like either option and can seen benefits and risks with both. I can certainly see how the Geth would have been deadlocked over it... and why they might have wanted Shepard to decide.

[Dave of Canada]

Shandepared wrote...

Indeed, which is why I support Koris and Xen. Either way would bring a swift end to hostilities.

I still bad for encouraging the war. I just went into the shoes of the Quarians and felt like Loghain 2.0 was right, humanity would've went at war with whatever was in control of Earth.

[Alienoudamour]

I feel sympathetic for both sides here... That's why I encourage peace (yeah, I'm too soft...) Plus, as it was said, a war now, with the Reapers' coming... Not a very tactical thing.

[AresXX7]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Regardless (and back on topic), it seems a poor time for the Quarians to pick a fight with the Geth.

Indeed, which is why I support Koris and Xen. Either way would bring a swift end to hostilities.

I agree on supporting Koris, solely on the basis of ending the war quicker. That way Shep can can have both as allies & resources against the Reapers.

The thing that bothers me the most with Xen is how Zorah's attempts blew up in his face.
I can't help but think a repeat of failure is imminent. For one, the Geths programming has evolved too much in the last 300 years. The other is I believe it would take too long for the Quarians to compensate & have a viable way to control them before either Reapers arrive or another Quarian/Geth war erupts. IMO

As for who the blame falls to, in the first place, I say the Quarians.
There are those who say the Quarians are innocent because they didn't intend  to create A.I.s to begin with.
But they did  go farther than they should have in programming them. They created a neural network that allowed for the Geth to operate greater on a thinking level, which is how their sentience began.

Had they just kept them at a basic V.I. level and not meddle with their capacities, there would have been no inherent danger(s). I won't go into the Quarians' reactions because I wasn't in their shoes.
And, from what I've read, the Geth didn't go chasing after the Quarians, so I fail to see how the Geth were intentionally attempting genocide. (as some have said)

And, as Pacifen had said, the Quarians wouldn't even be in their current prediciment, had they tried colonizing planets sooner. After 300 years, no attempt(s)?

As for the Geth on Haestrom, if I'm not mistaken, there are still parts of the Heretic faction behind the Perseus Veil. Therefore I would tend to believe these are the ones Shep encountered on the planet. For those who think Legion may have been lying, this may lead you to accept he was telling the truth.

Well, I've ranted enough on this.


ETA: added intentionally

Modifié par AriesXX7, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[AresXX7]

Shandepared wrote...

Moving on... the quarians have tried settling other worlds. However that is not an easy task and we know of at least one prior attempt that was thwarted by the Council. Settling down puts the quarian species at great risk. Currently their greatest defence is their mobility. If they settle down on a planet they're vulnerable. Rannoch at least is far out of the way in the depths of the the Perseus Veil and as I explained before if Xen's strategy works the quarians will have all the security and labor they need.

Maybe I've forgotten something, I can't remember anything about them trying to settle elsewhere afterwards.


Where did you see/hear the attempt that was prevented by the Council? (may need a memory refresher)

[Kavadas]

AriesXX7 wrote...
...so I fail to see how the Geth were attempting genocide. (as some have said)

Quarian population of Rannoch pre-Geth War:  Billions
Quarian population of Migrant Fleet: 17,000,000

"Billions" is vague so we'll go as conservatively as is possible: 2,000,000,000 Quarians on Rannoch pre-Geth War.

Current day Quarian population as a percentage of 2 billion: 0.0085%

Meaning that in the Geth War the Geth massacred 99.15% of the Quarian species using the most conserative numbers available.  Plus it doesn't even take into account any population increases in the years since.

That's not genocide?  Really?

[AresXX7]

Kavadas wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...
...so I fail to see how the Geth were attempting genocide. (as some have said)

Quarian population of Rannoch pre-Geth War:  Billions
Quarian population of Migrant Fleet: 17,000,000

"Billions" is vague so we'll go as conservatively as is possible: 2,000,000,000 Quarians on Rannoch pre-Geth War.

Current day Quarian population as a percentage of 2 billion: 0.0085%

Meaning that in the Geth War the Geth massacred 99.15% of the Quarian species using the most conserative numbers available.  Plus it doesn't even take into account any population increases in the years since.

That's not genocide?  Really?

I forgot to add intentionally. I was refering to them not going after the Quarians to eradicate them.

Modifié par AriesXX7, 11 septembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[ObserverStatus]

I don't think that the geth really care about holding onto the quarian home world. If the quarians would agree to a peace deal, the geth would probably give it back.