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[Kavadas]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Kavadas wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...
...so I fail to see how the Geth were attempting genocide. (as some have said)

Quarian population of Rannoch pre-Geth War:  Billions
Quarian population of Migrant Fleet: 17,000,000

"Billions" is vague so we'll go as conservatively as is possible: 2,000,000,000 Quarians on Rannoch pre-Geth War.

Current day Quarian population as a percentage of 2 billion: 0.0085%

Meaning that in the Geth War the Geth massacred 99.15% of the Quarian species using the most conserative numbers available.  Plus it doesn't even take into account any population increases in the years since.

That's not genocide?  Really?

I forgot to add intentionally. I was refering to them not going after the Quarians to eradicate them completely.

So you're saying the Geth accidentally butchered 99.15% of all Quarians???

[AresXX7]

Kavadas wrote...

So you're saying the Geth accidentally butchered 99.15% of all Quarians???

No I'm saying I don't think the Geth's motives (if they even have any) were to end the Quarian's existence completely.
Since the Geth do not have emotions.

I would say most of the deaths may have been collateral damage from the war, or from a lack of understanding due to their newfound sentience.

In other words, it was an involuntary knee-jerk reaction, which happened to of had drastic consequences.

I'm in no way saying that makes it okay, just I don't think that it was a goal of theirs.

It might have sounded better if I worded it more carefully, but my brain is a little on the empty side right now from a looong week.

[Kavadas]

AriesXX7 wrote...

Kavadas wrote...

So you're saying the Geth accidentally butchered 99.15% of all Quarians???

No I'm saying I don't think the Geth's motives (if they even have any) were to end the Quarian's existence completely.
Since the Geth do not have emotions.

I would say most of the deaths may have been collateral damage from the war, or from a lack of understanding due to their newfound sentience.

In other words, it was an involuntary knee-jerk reaction, which happened to of had drastic consequences.

I'm in no way saying that makes it okay, just I don't think that it was a goal of theirs.

It might have sounded better if I worded it more carefully, but my brain is a little on the empty side right now from a looong week.

I love how you say that you didn't mean to describe it as accidental but then go on to describe it as accidental.

So your final verdict is that the Geth's genocide of the Quarians was an accident?  Oh, those poor, poor Geth=]

Who cares what the motivation was?  There's still no justification for them acting like animals (oh, the irony of their race!).

Seriously, that doesn't excuse their behavior.

And the fact of the matter is that there's absolutely no evidence to support your assertion that all of these deaths were "accidental collateral damage".  That's something you concocted with the express purpose of morally absolving the Geth because you support them but realize there's no justification for what they did.

I'm sorry, but there's no way you murder over 99% of a population, throw up your hands, and then exclaim "Oops!"

That's absolutely absurd.

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Multifarious Algorithm]

Kavadas wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

Kavadas wrote...

So you're saying the Geth accidentally butchered 99.15% of all Quarians???

No I'm saying I don't think the Geth's motives (if they even have any) were to end the Quarian's existence completely.
Since the Geth do not have emotions.

I would say most of the deaths may have been collateral damage from the war, or from a lack of understanding due to their newfound sentience.

In other words, it was an involuntary knee-jerk reaction, which happened to of had drastic consequences.

I'm in no way saying that makes it okay, just I don't think that it was a goal of theirs.

It might have sounded better if I worded it more carefully, but my brain is a little on the empty side right now from a looong week.

I love how you say that you didn't mean to describe it as accidental but then go on to describe it as accidental

So your final verdict is that the Geth's genocide of the Quarians was an accident?  Oh, those poor, poor Geth=]

Who cares what the motivation was?  There's still no justification for them acting like animals (oh, the irony of their race!).

Seriously, that doesn't excuse their behavior.

And the fact of the matter is that there's absolutely no evidence to support your assertion that all of these deaths were "accidental collateral damage".

I'm sorry, but there's no way you murder over 99% of a population, throw up your hands, and then exclaim "Oops!"

That's absolutely absurd.

The Geth weren't an invading army though: they were the worst possible manifestation of a civil war. By the time the rebellion happened it seems likely that almost every Quarian household would've had at least 1 Geth. So it wasn't like they deliberately attacked all Quarian settlements: they simply woke up one day and the first thing they actually knew was that the next Quarian they saw was going to try and murder them. If we assume an average family size of at least 5, it's not implausible that the Geth could've wiped out 1/5th the Quarian population without even trying.

Consider how often a natural disaster in the real world kills a few million people, not from the effects of disaster itself, but from the break down of law and order, the effects of disease and loss of infrastructure and distribution of vital supplies.

[Kavadas]

Multifarious Algorithm wrote...

The Geth weren't an invading army though: they were the worst possible manifestation of a civil war. By the time the rebellion happened it seems likely that almost every Quarian household would've had at least 1 Geth. So it wasn't like they deliberately attacked all Quarian settlements: they simply woke up one day and the first thing they actually knew was that the next Quarian they saw was going to try and murder them. If we assume an average family size of at least 5, it's not implausible that the Geth could've wiped out 1/5th the Quarian population without even trying.

Consider how often a natural disaster in the real world kills a few million people, not from the effects of disaster itself, but from the break down of law and order, the effects of disease and loss of infrastructure and distribution of vital supplies.

And?  If the Geth had killed 20%, 30%, hell I'll even give them 50% I could let them off the hook.  But they didn't kill just half.  They killed 99.15% (as the most conservative estimate which can be deduced).

Do you know how many Quarians that is using the smallest numbers available with the data we have?  That's 1,983,000,000 Quarians.

It's important to note that event was called a war by both sides which means it was a conflict and there were battles and it lasted a significant length of time.

Even using your imaginary self-fabricated number of 20% of the Quarian population being wiped out immediately how do you explain the remaining 79.15%?

More accidents?  Just some Geth justifiably running amok on Rannoch?

I don't care what anyone says.  At some point in this conflict, well before 99.15% of all Quarians had been massacred, the Quarians realized they were F'd and just wanted to flee.

And at some point the Geth must have come to the concensus that victory for them was inevitable and that, as a result, the Quarians could no longer prosecute their war efforts or even adequately defend themselves (obviously if 99.15% of 2 billion people are killed they were probably never capable of adequately defending themselves).

Knowing these two crucial facts did the Geth desist?

Nope, they just kept on killing... and killing... and killing... and killing... and killing...

...and killing...

But hey, you like the Geth and Legion and assume we'll need their help in taking down the Reapers so tell yourself whatever ya need to make yourself feel good about it.  It's what most of this thread is.

[upsettingshorts]

Eh, my issue isn't so much that the Geth are "good guys."   They wanted to continue to exist - a valid justification for war - but lacked any sense of proportionality, a key facet of Just War Theory.

It's that the Quarians need to let go of the notion that they have a right to their homeworld anymore. They need to move on for their own sake. Then maybe there can be peace, and after the Geth wars are a distant memory, maybe they would simply be allowed back to their homeworld - after both sides have proven to each other that they can co-exist.

Until then, find a new planet and get to work. Personally I think part of the reason why they don't is fear, laziness, and complacency. Tali even dismisses it during her loyalty mission by saying, "Oh it will take a long time for us to adapt." Cry me a river Tali, then maybe your people should have started colonization decades ago. Nope, they'd rather cling to the homeworld idea because it's romantic and gives people motivation, but it's still stupid. You lost, deal with it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Kavadas]

Just for some more perspective here are some more realistic numbers for this situation based off of percentages from the 2009 U.S. Census and applied to the pre-Geth War Quarian population numbers.

Again, using 2 billion as the most conservative estimate:

• U.S. Census - Children under the age 5: 6.9%
• Applied to the Quarrian population of Rannoch:  138,000,000
• Using the 0.0085, or 0.85%, (17 million divided by 2 billion) the number of survivors of this age demographic: 1,173,000
• Total killed by the Geth: 136,827,000

• U.S. Census - Children under the age of 18: 24.3%
• Applied to the Quarrian population of Rannoch: 486,000,000
• Using the 0.0085, or 0.85%, (17 million divided by 2 billion) the number of survivors of this age demographic: 4,131,000
• Total killed by the Geth: 481,869,000

Yeah, that's right, the Geth murdered 136,827,000 babies and toddlers.

So what, the Geth just woke up fearing for the lives (which, as Legion explicitly states, isn't possible because the Geth don't have emotions) and murdered over one hundred and thirty million children?

Hey, maybe it was just an accident though, right?  That'll excuse their behavior!

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[upsettingshorts]

Kavadas wrote...
So what, the Geth just woke up fearing for the lives (which, as Legion explicitly states, isn't possible because the Geth don't have emotions) and murdered over one hundred and thirty million children?

Uh, didn't the Morning War/Geth Uprising actually start with a pre-emptive strike by the Quarians?

Again, not saying the Geth were justified in wholesale slaughter.  It was a horrible and brutal conflict.  But the Quarians need to get over it for their own sakes and move on.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Kavadas]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Uh, didn't the Morning War/Geth Uprising actually start with a pre-emptive strike by the Quarians?

This is what the wiki has to say:

By repeatedly tweaking the geth's systems, the quarians had inadvertently allowed the geth to evolve into an Artificial Intelligence, thus becoming sentient. In response, the quarian government ordered an immediate termination of all geth programs.

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[upsettingshorts]

So... that's a first strike - since termination could very easily be read as "killing."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Kavadas]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So... that's a first strike - since termination could very easily be read as "killed."

If you want to intepret it that way, then by all means.  I certainly don't think it means that Quarian soldiers were roaming the streets, kicking down doors, pulling those "poor" Geth out of their owners' homes and shooting them.  I just read it as turning them off or something similar to a massive product recall.

Anyways, does this justify the murder of well over one hundred million children to you?

A lot of posters in this thread are very wrongly anthropomorphizing the Geth.  They don't have emotions.  They can't really understand why the decisions they make are wrong because logically they're correct.

They're just cold, calculating robots and nothing more than that.

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[upsettingshorts]

Shandepared wrote...
If they can aquire it and defend it then they have a right to it.

I wasn't aware they had any such capability.  For a war to be a just war, there has to be a reasonable expectation of victory, otherwise you're just setting off to get people killed.

Shandepared wrote...
Such compassion. If only we could get the Palestinians to just "Deal with it.jpg"

Clumsy, inaccurate comparison cynically used to provoke sympathy.  Not buying it.

Kavadas wrote...
If you want to intepret it that way, then by all means.  I certainly don't think it means that Quarian soldiers were
roaming the streets, kicking down doors, pulling those "poor" Geth out of their owners' homes and shooting them.  I just read it as turning them off or something similar to a massive product recall.

Which, to an artificial intelligence is more or less the same thing.

Kavadas wrote...
Anyways, does this justify the murder of well over one hundred million children to you?

Alot of posters in this thread are very wrongly anthropomorphizing the Geth.  They don't have emotions.  They can't really understand why the decisions they make are wrong because logically they're correct.

No it does not.

Nowhere in my arguments did I say the Geth fought a just war.  Neither did the Quarians.  It was a savage and brutal conflict that in my mind neither side can claim the moral high ground.  The Quarians for starting it, and the Geth for not ending it.  The fact that both sides continue to pursue the conflict is tragic.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

Shandepared wrote...
Apparently the quarians think they can fight a just war. Unless you think they're just idiots. It is possible, but if they were stupid I don't think they'd have survived this long. So if they're talking about the possibility of war then they must be able to see a possible victory.

Some of the Quarians think they can.  The fact they are having to resort to risky, dangerous, and secretive R&D in violation of their own laws to give them the edge even the most militant faction thinks they need, I believe that as of right now they don't have the capability to win the war.

There's also pride and romanticism to consider, both could lead one to expect or wish for victory, neither is necessarily based in reality, and both are extremely likely among Quarians - regardless of their intelligence.

Shandepared wrote...
Clumsy and inaccurate in what way? I'm not buying your not buying it without an explanation.

The Palestinians created the Isrealis, then tried to have them all killed, then the Isrealis committed genocide on the Palestinians, who then left Palestine?

No, the modern Isreali-Palestinian conflict is far more complex, involving issues like Isreali settlements in and near Palestinian territory, and a cycle of terrorist violence and and retribution, and who has sovereignty over arguably the world's most collectively holy city.

But that's not the real issue.  The reason I dismissed it is because your motives in coming up with the example were transparently cynical, it was an attempt to discredit my argument based on the emotional response either I or other readers of this board would have by associating it with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Keep the real world emotion out of it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Whether or not the quarians have a "right" to their homeworld, I very much doubt they're going to get it back by force. Not without losing too many lives to be really acceptable if peace is a possibility, and it looks like a very distinct one to me.

[upsettingshorts]

Shandepared wrote...
It's easy for you to say "screw it" to the idea of the quarians retaking their homeworld, but then it's not your homeworld is it? You're just an outsider. Maybe your voice is one of reason, but people aren't always motivated by that. They want their world, the one that all of their history came from, and they want to break even with the beings that nearly destroyed them.

Rannoch is a worthy a goal, and an achievable one.

I'll simplify my point since the topic is getting out of hand:

The cycle of violence has to end.   Someone has to choose to stop it.  Given actual peace between Geth and Quarian, who is to say the Geth wouldn't just give them the homeworld back?  It's not like the Geth need it, and given adaquete proof of their ability to co-exist, why wouldn't they?  Recall the Geth's lack of emotional attachment.  If there's no logical reason to oppose the Quarians, then they will simply stop doing it.

The contemporary Orthodox Geth themselves don't seem to be doing much other than hanging out and not being provocative at all - save the battle on Haestrom which was more or less an incursion into their territory, making the Quarians the aggressors even if it was a research mission.  Does that mean they are "in the clear" for their actions during the Morning War?  No. But like I said, the cycle of violence must be stopped. 

If I was on the Council would I work to help the Quarians secure a new homeworld?  Sure I would, but I'm not, and since I can't read their arguments against Quarian settlement in detail, I don't feel like I'm in a good position  to critisize them for denying it.  Personally I'd give them the world Jacob's dad crash landed on.  Sure, the food is messed up but Quarians have been more or less eating processed paste for generations now, I think they'd just be happy to have a world all their own while they introduced safer, non-native food.

Shandepared wrote...
Well aren't you a smart cookie.

So I've been told.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Alienoudamour]

This thread reminds me so much how I felt the quarian vs. geth story was some kind of "battlestar galactica" when I first played ME.

Of course the Geth killing and nearly destroying the Quarians was kind of a "bad" thing. But the Quarians played gods, and "surprise!" created something sapient, then decided to get rid of it, 'cause it was a bit frightening. That's as bad.

Geths are not just machines. They're far beyond that. We assume they have no feelings, no emotions. But we clearly don't know. Legion himself says so, but he's also unable to explain why he had his armor repaired with Shep's one. And heretics consider Sovereign as some kind of god.

A lot of Geths' and heretics' behaviour are beyond calculs and logical responses to stimulis.

They may not be as organics, but they're definitely more than just machines.

And even if they're just machines, they're self-aware. Trying to kill them was clearly not a clever thing, 'cause self-aware things tend to try to protect their "lifes".

So quarians vs. geths... I can't judge any of them. So, I hope they would make peace and won't destroy each other.



(sorry for the poor english)

[DPSSOC]

Kavadas wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...
...so I fail to see how the Geth were attempting genocide. (as some have said)

Quarian population of Rannoch pre-Geth War:  Billions
Quarian population of Migrant Fleet: 17,000,000

"Billions" is vague so we'll go as conservatively as is possible: 2,000,000,000 Quarians on Rannoch pre-Geth War.

Current day Quarian population as a percentage of 2 billion: 0.0085%

Meaning that in the Geth War the Geth massacred 99.15% of the Quarian species using the most conserative numbers available.  Plus it doesn't even take into account any population increases in the years since.

That's not genocide?  Really?

You're ignoring that that 17 million is after 300 years of nearly constant population decline.  The Quarian law declaring that each couple can only have one child means that every generation will be half the size of the previous one.  This will result in uniform population decline for 300 years with bumps only occurring to keep population levels from falling too low.  I'm sure the Quarian casualties were great but I doubt we can blame the whole 1.983 billion population drop on the Geth.

You also ignore other sources of population decline over 300 years.

[Kavadas]

DPSSOC wrote...

You're ignoring that that 17 million is after 300 years of nearly constant population decline.  The Quarian law declaring that each couple can only have one child means that every generation will be half the size of the previous one.  This will result in uniform population decline for 300 years with bumps only occurring to keep population levels from falling too low.  I'm sure the Quarian casualties were great but I doubt we can blame the whole 1.983 billion population drop on the Geth.

You also ignore other sources of population decline over 300 years.

You're incorrect.  The fleet maintains a "zero population growth" policy (source).

Zero population growth, sometimes abbreviated ZPG, (also called the replacement level of fertility)[1]is a condition of demographic balance where the number of people in a specified population neither grows nor declines, considered as a social aim.

Meaning that 17 million is basically the exact population of the survivors who escaped as well as the current Quarian population.

Quarians don't halve their entire racial population every generation.

Modifié par Kavadas, 11 septembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

I understand this reasoning but to employ this you'd need to know a lot more about the battlefield than you actually did.

Not really. With the Nebula, the Citadel, the number of friendly ships and Council reports on the strength of Sovereign's sheilds, the fleet would have had to get in close to get good firing solutions on Sovereign anyway. Also, every Geth ship taken down or crippled on the way in would have been one less at our backs when we got in. There was more than enough known of the battlefield to make those conclusions, and to the extent there wasn't, there wasn't data suggesting I was wrong either.

Indeed, which is why I support Koris and Xen. Either way would bring a swift end to hostilities.

Unless they failed, in which case all they would have done is cost Quarian (and Geth) lives and ships, and left both navies crippled against the Reapers. Their plans sound way too much like the Quarian's original plan. They were confident that would work too, remember?

[AresXX7]

Kavadas wrote...

I love how you say that you didn't mean to describe it as accidental but then go on to describe it as accidental.

So your final verdict is that the Geth's genocide of the Quarians was an accident?  Oh, those poor, poor Geth=]

Who cares what the motivation was?  There's still no justification for them acting like animals (oh, the irony of their race!).

Seriously, that doesn't excuse their behavior.

And the fact of the matter is that there's absolutely no evidence to support your assertion that all of these deaths were "accidental collateral damage".  That's something you concocted with the express purpose of morally absolving the Geth because you support them but realize there's no justification for what they did.

I'm sorry, but there's no way you murder over 99% of a population, throw up your hands, and then exclaim "Oops!"

That's absolutely absurd.

I never said it was accidental nor am I trying to give them absolution. And there is absolutely no evidence to contradict them from being "collateral damage" either. As for who I support, read one of my earlier posts & you'll see I favor peace for more resources from both sides, not one over the other. I have no morals towards them because they are machines, free will or not, they're still nothing more. What I am trying to say is it wasn't premeditated, or an act of malice. Both of those require feelings/emotions.

Let me try to explain this another way.

The Quarians created machines to handle their labors & wars. They weren't content with the current level of functions so they created a way to have them perform more difficult tasks.
(the neural network)
When it backfired on them by the Geth becoming aware of their own existence, they panicked, and rightfully so because of the inherent possibilities & dangers it presented. (this I do agree with)

But, since they were built for warfare, the Quarians' actions did nothing more than paint a bullseye on themselves.
Once the "kill switch" was activated & failed, I think it would be plausible to assume it also activated whatever friend/foe protocal(s) are used when the Geth fight as well. Thus making them no longer the masters, but an enemy.

Who's to say whether or not there was a limit imposed on when to stop fighting/killing, That is a question within itself. I do think we can both agree there is no "moral" factor since the geth do not have emotions.
The actual act of genocide could have been a result of their initial programming, meaning they do not stop until the entire threat is either neutralized or retreated. Just as the Quarian race could have been perceived as a whole rather than seperate factions, meaning there were no seperation of military, government, or civilians. Once again, this could very well be a part of their initial programming. I don't know for sure because - a.) I wasn't there b.) I'm not one of the ME writers. So I have no real insight on the matter. 

Another way of looking at it is:
If the Quarians chose genocide as a means to combat them, why wouldn't the Geth do the same?
They may very well be following the same method their creators used, as a template for fighting against them, rather than a "Oh yeah? Well I'm going to do the same to you" one may expect from an emotional response.

Modifié par AriesXX7, 11 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

If they can aquire it and defend it then they have a right to it.

So if someone was to shoot your family, for some reason not get caught, and squat in your house long enough to 'own' it, you figure they would have a right to do so?

Such compassion. If only we could get the Palestinians to just "Deal with it.jpg"

Palestine and Israel want the same real estate. The Geth seem content to live in stations off world. The situations are not quite the same. There is a lot more about that situation, but discussing that region properly really would hijack this thread lol.