116 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

How is this questionable ethics? Questionable ethics here would be to not force you to agree before playing and merely assuming you accept.

Not only that, but you must scroll down the entire agreement before the 'I accept' option becomes available for selection.

Mind you, I do find the concept of EULAs (or "shrink-wrap licences") questionable, since you can't review them before the sale - and if the quoted poster would disagree with that, I'd totally be on his side - in fact, that's why the legality of EULAs is questionable, depending on your local legislation.

However, if it's about "secretly gathering data", well, it's not really secret if it's spelled out and consented to by you, no? And the not reading EULAs is bad practise in general - do people sign stuff in the Real Life™ without reading it first!?

EDIT: Of course, no idea how they did that for the Xbox, I wouldn't be surprised if the Xbox Live services etc. already contain such a clause.

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract. So, because this there is no point to read it, because only REAL option is to agree. Reason to read is only to be aware what company force you to agree.

[Lord_Tirian]

Lumikki wrote...

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract.

For what it's worth, software say on the box something like "acceptance of end user licence agreement required to use" or something like that - so there's always the option of simply not buying EULA-ified products.

I'm still not a fan of EULAs, but a) it's a bit beyond the scope of the thread here, the point I simply want to make is: there's no reason *not* to be aware of the data gathering in advance - EA isn't hiding it from you in any way. Also, doesn't about *everybody* say "ALWAYS READ THE FINE PRINT"?

[Eag07]

Lumikki wrote...

Lord_Tirian wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

How is this questionable ethics? Questionable ethics here would be to not force you to agree before playing and merely assuming you accept.

Not only that, but you must scroll down the entire agreement before the 'I accept' option becomes available for selection.

Mind you, I do find the concept of EULAs (or "shrink-wrap licences") questionable, since you can't review them before the sale - and if the quoted poster would disagree with that, I'd totally be on his side - in fact, that's why the legality of EULAs is questionable, depending on your local legislation.

However, if it's about "secretly gathering data", well, it's not really secret if it's spelled out and consented to by you, no? And the not reading EULAs is bad practise in general - do people sign stuff in the Real Life™ without reading it first!?

EDIT: Of course, no idea how they did that for the Xbox, I wouldn't be surprised if the Xbox Live services etc. already contain such a clause.

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract. So, because this there is no point to read it, because only REAL option is to agree. Reason to read is only to be aware what company force you to agree.

You don't necessarily *have * to accept EULA while installing a piece of software. Sufficiently skilled person should be able to disassemble the installer files of a program and copy the files to necessary locations manually. This way you are not legally bound by anything stated in EULA and are free to do whatever you want. Of course, people who would go to such lengths are pretty rare in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I wasn't surprised to learn that ME2 sends data about players' playthroughs to Bioware or whatever (yeah, I'm paranoid) and am glad that I have this habit of killing my internet connection while playing a single player game. Simple solution for everyone troubled by the idea of corporate zombies spying on them while playing.

[Lumikki]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract.

For what it's worth, software say on the box something like "acceptance of end user licence agreement required to use" or something like that - so there's always the option of simply not buying EULA-ified products.

I'm still not a fan of EULAs, but a) it's a bit beyond the scope of the thread here, the point I simply want to make is: there's no reason *not* to be aware of the data gathering in advance - EA isn't hiding it from you in any way. Also, doesn't about *everybody* say "ALWAYS READ THE FINE PRINT"?

Yes, I meaned more like you know that game has EULA. But you can't read it before buying the game. If you don't agree with games EULA, you can't play the game at all. Meaning you gave money to company, but got nothing. Only way to get something for you money is agree with EULA. That means when you buy the product, you allready agree with EULA without ever reading it, because you have no other choise. You can't return to product after reading the EULA, even what ever it sayes. So, what's the point of reading it. Unless person is curios as what it sayes.

It's little funny situation isn't it?

[Spartas Husky]

Lumikki wrote...

Lord_Tirian wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract.

For what it's worth, software say on the box something like "acceptance of end user licence agreement required to use" or something like that - so there's always the option of simply not buying EULA-ified products.

I'm still not a fan of EULAs, but a) it's a bit beyond the scope of the thread here, the point I simply want to make is: there's no reason *not* to be aware of the data gathering in advance - EA isn't hiding it from you in any way. Also, doesn't about *everybody* say "ALWAYS READ THE FINE PRINT"?

Yes, I meaned more like you know that game has EULA. But you can't read it before buying the game. If you don't agree with games EULA, you can't play the game at all. Meaning you gave money to company, but got nothing. Only way to get something for you money is agree with EULA. That means when you buy the product, you allready agree with EULA without ever reading it, because you have no other choise. You can't return to product after reading the EULA, even what ever it sayes. So, what's the point of reading it. Unless person is curios as what it sayes.

It's little funny situation isn't it?

never thought of it as that..

Maybe a lawsuit is in order... mandatory for all game establishments to have a printed and virtual EULA of everygame to read, before buying it.

Or agree to refund full value, within 24 hrs.

hmmmmmm.

[SomeBug]

Eag07 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Lord_Tirian wrote...

SomeBug wrote...

How is this questionable ethics? Questionable ethics here would be to not force you to agree before playing and merely assuming you accept.

Not only that, but you must scroll down the entire agreement before the 'I accept' option becomes available for selection.

Mind you, I do find the concept of EULAs (or "shrink-wrap licences") questionable, since you can't review them before the sale - and if the quoted poster would disagree with that, I'd totally be on his side - in fact, that's why the legality of EULAs is questionable, depending on your local legislation.

However, if it's about "secretly gathering data", well, it's not really secret if it's spelled out and consented to by you, no? And the not reading EULAs is bad practise in general - do people sign stuff in the Real Life™ without reading it first!?

EDIT: Of course, no idea how they did that for the Xbox, I wouldn't be surprised if the Xbox Live services etc. already contain such a clause.

It's little like you buy software, then you read EULA. You don't agree. That means you can't used the software and you can't realy return the software back to shop and say I did not agree with EULA contract. So, because this there is no point to read it, because only REAL option is to agree. Reason to read is only to be aware what company force you to agree.

You don't necessarily *have * to accept EULA while installing a piece of software. Sufficiently skilled person should be able to disassemble the installer files of a program and copy the files to necessary locations manually. This way you are not legally bound by anything stated in EULA and are free to do whatever you want. Of course, people who would go to such lengths are pretty rare in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I wasn't surprised to learn that ME2 sends data about players' playthroughs to Bioware or whatever (yeah, I'm paranoid) and am glad that I have this habit of killing my internet connection while playing a single player game. Simple solution for everyone troubled by the idea of corporate zombies spying on them while playing.

While EULAs are in a legal grey area, tampering and disassembling game code without publisher authorization is legitimately against the law, plain as day.

This is not a viable alternative.

[Eag07]

Technically you are only disassembling an installer, not the game assets themselves. This sort of tampering is forbidden by EULA. If you buy a game and not agree with it's EULA you can do whatever you want with the hard copy, you are only not allowed to install it by normal means (and therefore use it). Oh and I never said this was a viable alternative, I'm only saying it's possible.

To the issue of not being able to read EULA before purchasing: my ME2's EULA clearly states that you are allowed to return the product within thirty days of buying and get the full refund if you don't agree with the EULA. However, this is guaranteed only in United States and only if the game was bought in a retail store.

Modifié par Eag07, 08 septembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[HTTP 404]

Lumikki wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

I understand the ask permission its rude not to argument. Maybe Im just jaded about Technology, its quite naive to think companies are not looking into what you are doing online

Maybe it is little naive, but most of us has learn that companies does stuff behind peoples back. How ever, it's not so much worry to know this,  than realise that how many people don't care or accept this behavior. Like it's okey to companies to use other people how they want, when there is possibility, even if there is excuse as mutual benefit. It's like world accept that when there is benefit for company or customers, it's okey to have excuses as not to behave correctly.

well, Im just not invested nor have the energy to fight a cause like this.  I already devote my energy in my job for a non-profit that helps children.  But I more than support you on this and any who care to carry the banner for freedon from "snoopying eyes" and "big brotherism"

For now I just come home, play my video games, and keep my privacy settings on or turn my internet off. 

[Xeranx]

They said they were going to do it which is why I kept making certain decisions on every subsequent playthrough. Unfortunately I don't think I'll have a chance in hell of getting certain characters to live so I can experience them fully when ME3 comes around.

[robtheguru]

It made me laugh when I read that 360 gamers did Grunts loyalty mission the most, where as PC gamers did Mirandas. Just reinforces my theory that most 360 gamers are 12 year olds where women don't come into the equation of life. Where as the PC gamers are older taking the approach of, "I like beautiful women over giant aliens any day."

[Xeranx]

robtheguru wrote...

It made me laugh when I read that 360 gamers did Grunts loyalty mission the most, where as PC gamers did Mirandas. Just reinforces my theory that most 360 gamers are 12 year olds where women don't come into the equation of life. Where as the PC gamers are older taking the approach of, "I like beautiful women over giant aliens any day."

That's a funny way to look at it. Whether I roleplayed that scenario or not, I always did it for Miranda's sister only.  I couldn't care less about Miranda and her ample assets.

[Nezzer]

Xeranx wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

It made me laugh when I read that 360 gamers did Grunts loyalty mission the most, where as PC gamers did Mirandas. Just reinforces my theory that most 360 gamers are 12 year olds where women don't come into the equation of life. Where as the PC gamers are older taking the approach of, "I like beautiful women over giant aliens any day."

That's a funny way to look at it. Whether I roleplayed that scenario or not, I always did it for Miranda's sister only.  I couldn't care less about Miranda and her ample assets.

Liara>>>>>>>>Miranda anyway

[robtheguru]

Nezzer wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

It made me laugh when I read that 360 gamers did Grunts loyalty mission the most, where as PC gamers did Mirandas. Just reinforces my theory that most 360 gamers are 12 year olds where women don't come into the equation of life. Where as the PC gamers are older taking the approach of, "I like beautiful women over giant aliens any day."

That's a funny way to look at it. Whether I roleplayed that scenario or not, I always did it for Miranda's sister only.  I couldn't care less about Miranda and her ample assets.

Liara>>>>>>>>Miranda anyway

There is something about blue women that does something strange to me lol. However the rear end given to Miranda is one that Liara cannot compete with.

[Marta Rio]

Water Dumple wrote...
I would have liked to see some other stats, such as the percentages of which LIs where chosen (if any), but I'm sure they have that kind of data too. Probably just wasn't interesting enough to bring into the interview.

Not sure why they didn't reveal LI related data, or data on the average number of suicide mission survivors (+ who survived).  I guess that stuff's kind of too spoilery for a general interview?

As far as how Bioware uses the data, I think they showed with the LotSB DLC that they know how to balance the input of the fans with their own ideas and creativity.  There were things in that DLC that redressed some of the more serious fan complaints, but also a bunch of elements that were totally out of the blue and also totally awesome.  So I'm confident in their ability to use the data wisely.

[Kacynski]

Lord_Tirian wrote...

(snip)

However, if it's about "secretly gathering data", well, it's not really secret if it's spelled out and consented to by you, no? And the not reading EULAs is bad practise in general - do people sign stuff in the Real Life™ without reading it first!?
(snip)

I'm quite sure 95% of all people never read the whole terms of their mobile phone contract ... just a guess of course, but remembering the three pages of tiny printed clauses on my own phone contract lead me to this assumption (and the fact the sales lady almost freaking out when I spent one hour to read through all the terms and asking her questions about it ). Just an example.
I think this also applies to numerous other real contracts with tons of clauses in them, e.g. travel insurances, car rental contracts and so on .... These companies all just rely on the fact that there is usually no time or no quiet environment to carefully study these contracts.
And it is the same situation with the EULAs. We are forced to accept them, because otherwise we would not be able to play the games. I do think it is a very questionable business practise, but alas most customers don't care (as even evident in this thread). Only thing to do: plug out the internet cable ..

And somewhat more on topic:
I would guess the staff at Bioware does know the basics about statistical data and will not blindly follow the numbers. They most certainly have more statistics then they show to the public. But in any case, I really doubt data as "360 players like Grunts loyalty mission most" have any real value, beside being a source for obscure speculations ..
Without some elaborated form - which should be based on the collected data - I do not see any way to meaningfully extract any knowledge from the collected raw data.

[izumi1925]

Kacynski wrote...

And somewhat more on topic:
I would guess the staff at Bioware does know the basics about statistical data and will not blindly follow the numbers. They most certainly have more statistics then they show to the public. But in any case, I really doubt data as "360 players like Grunts loyalty mission most" have any real value, beside being a source for obscure speculations ..
Without some elaborated form - which should be based on the collected data - I do not see any way to meaningfully extract any knowledge from the collected raw data.

Sorry to come out of the left field in the middle of this whole ethics of 'companies-gathering-personal-data-or-whatever' debate, but some of this data is kinda trivial. I agree with Kacynski, does 360 players liking Grunts mission most really matter? Honestly, some of this info is like wrappers on Fantails and pads; a kind of interesting fact that doesn't really hold huge consequence. Besides, it can probably be assumed they aren't going to solely base ME3 on statistics.


On a side note, ~50% of players imported their game. Just 50%? I honestly thought it would be at least 60%. Also, not that surprised that the most played class is Soldier. I don't care, I love being Vanguard! Shotgun in one hand and biotics pulsing in the other. 

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Steam do it too.

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...
Others have no rights to break someones privacy without permission. It doesn't matter what the data is or how it's used. It's breaking the line of privacy. The who is breakign it should allways ask permission. It's not even does the target person care if it's broken or not, it's matter of polite behavior. Meaning, the decission of judgement isn't the side of who does break the privacy, but who's privacy is broken.

Legally speaking there would be no privacy issues if no information sent can be used to identify you. This is why organisations have done this sort of anonymous polling for years. Also, by providing the option to 'opt out' they have done the polite thing.

Maybe you could argue that perhaps BioWare hasn't given you enough information about the existence of anonymous information uploading, but I don't personally see it as privacy invasion. By playing ME2 and them polling me for my decisions they don't know what I do for a living, they don't know where I live, or who I'm sleeping with, or my name or how many if any pets I own, or how much time per day I spend exercising, or what my purchase history is for the last 30 days. In short, how can you in good conscious make this mole hill into a mountain?

[DarthCaine]

thoughts?

How the heck did they get that data ?

[dose150]

wonder wat % actually played as female, because its probably not 20% a lot of players have played as male and female so theres probably quite a overlap

[Embrosil]

Well I do not know how in other countries, but  according to the law in the Czech Republic EULA MUST be in the Czech language (which is for a local ME2 release, but in many cases it is not) and second it is valid AFTER you agree to it. So if you have an English/French or any other language EULA or do not agree with it, you can go back to shop and ask for a refund. This is actually one of the few laws our politicians did right :-) Of course 99% people do not do this. But the possibility is here.

Regarding the data collection, I am a bit affraid that the option is automaticaly set to yes, send the data. That is why I do not use Steam, do not buy Ubisoft games and automatically disconnect every game from net when posiible. Someone call me paranoid :-) But it is always better to be safe then sorry. Now they claim to collect statistics only. Next time, they will collect data on when and how long we play. And who knows what comes next.

Modifié par Embrosil, 09 septembre 2010 - 06:30 .

[Embrosil]

Kacynski wrote...

Lord_Tirian wrote...

(snip)

However, if it's about "secretly gathering data", well, it's not really secret if it's spelled out and consented to by you, no? And the not reading EULAs is bad practise in general - do people sign stuff in the Real Life™ without reading it first!?
(snip)

I'm quite sure 95% of all people never read the whole terms of their mobile phone contract ... just a guess of course, but remembering the three pages of tiny printed clauses on my own phone contract lead me to this assumption (and the fact the sales lady almost freaking out when I spent one hour to read through all the terms and asking her questions about it ). Just an example.

That is why I use a prepaid card for my phone and will never sign any kind of contract.