116 réponses à ce sujet

[Vargeisa]

If they take the info they collected from me into consideration 90% of ME3 will be Kelly dancing.

And the Collector's Edition will come with a box of tissues.

[Funker Shepard]

The domination of the soldier class is the most worrying thing here to me, hang privacy (non-)issues and the rest.



I guess if you really want to play the game (almost totally) pause-free soldier is the easiest way to go. And it's the 'easiest' in some other ways too. I don't think the solution would be to make the other classes easier, too... :/ In case you can't tell, I'm a colossal fan of the sentinel, which I could easily see get sacrificed on the altar of fluidity (and as an Infinity Engine game veteran, I don't even notice the little breaks I get from popping off power after power - and I love the sentinel for the huge flexibility it gives me). Infiltrators work pretty well without pause, as well... But I still hope this won't be a factor.



In fact, it would be really interesting to see the breakdown between the other classes? Since you are locked into your class choice before you've had a chance to try out anything, is the soldier just a 'safe' choice? Did the soldier marketing with the bullet time and the (imho) gorgeous exclusive Revenant just work really well? Do people just look at the soldier and say:' It getz the most gunz. The most gunz winz!'



Also, no surprise engineer took final place. Combat drone as exclusive, coupled with AI Hacking...

markjohngeraghty wrote...



I think it's an excellent idea and a valuable tool for making better games. Hopefully Bioware will realise that 85% of players did not skip convos and will take into account replays.



Invasion of privacy is a strange way to view it. The data is anonymous and harmless from what I can see. People I've never met knowing which ME2 heavy pistol I preferred just doesn't worry me at all.*



* If I start getting emails from IRL gun companies that have noted this preference, I may change my mind.

The data is anonymous. It won't be people who you've never met knowing your weapon preference, it'll more like 'User 23478174XY uses the Carnifex exclusively..."

[Lumikki]

Arijharn wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
Others have no rights to break someones privacy without permission. It doesn't matter what the data is or how it's used. It's breaking the line of privacy. The who is breakign it should allways ask permission. It's not even does the target person care if it's broken or not, it's matter of polite behavior. Meaning, the decission of judgement isn't the side of who does break the privacy, but who's privacy is broken.

Legally speaking there would be no privacy issues if no information sent can be used to identify you

When someone enters your home without permission, it's allready break of privacy. Person doens't even have to take or do anything there. Same is with computer or any information related person. Identification is not required for it.

[Siegdrifa]

Hey Bioware, i have an intresting question for you, for all the ME2 you sold, how many % let you collect data while they play?

I'm sure the majority would, but i get the feeling that all this stat come from usualy user that just push "yes yes yes yes" without really reading.

And i also got the feeling that most of user who don't allow the collecting data have ridacal different choice in the game.

Modifié par Siegdrifa, 09 septembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Funker Shepard]

Lumikki wrote...
When someone enters your home without permission, it's allready break of privacy. Person doens't even have to take or do anything there. Same is with computer or any information related person. Identification is not required for it.

Worst analogue ever!

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
Others have no rights to break someones privacy without permission. It doesn't matter what the data is or how it's used. It's breaking the line of privacy. The who is breakign it should allways ask permission. It's not even does the target person care if it's broken or not, it's matter of polite behavior. Meaning, the decission of judgement isn't the side of who does break the privacy, but who's privacy is broken.

Legally speaking there would be no privacy issues if no information sent can be used to identify you

When someone enters your home without permission, it's allready break of privacy. Person doens't even have to take or do anything there. Same is with computer or any information related person. Identification is not required for it.

But it isn't the same thing at all. Breaking into your house is something that infringes on your person and personal items, anonymous polling doesn't infringe on your person or your property. They don't take anything of yours because the game is owned by them and is licensed to you as a consumer (blame EULA).

Like I said, no information can be traced back to who you are or what you do. It doesn't know, for example, that you are Lumikki, it doesn't know what your favourite colour is or if you like Chinese food. It simply logs your decisions. 

[Demigod]

Personally I have no problem with them collecting anonymous data on choices in game. The problem for some though is its tied to one user id?



For the data to be useful it has to have a user id (random number not forum id) and If it is given a user id it isn't truly anonymous - but again I don't have a problem with them knowing game choices. Sorting the data by user makes it more useful If it is just lumped together the data loses value.



To explain that take the way I play as an example.

I have finished mass effect 2 once

I have about fifteen play throughs at different stages.

I have two I created just to play around with the face creator.



Now tied to a user id you can read that in different ways. either someone who replays to get different choices before finishing or someone who plays up to certain points and restarts. In my case to make the game last longer and to replay parts that I now have a different view point on.



Take away the user id and all you get is about 15 play throughs only one finished. So all you get out is a 6.66%(recurring) completion rate. I contribute in a large way to the 50% no complete rate, but add a user id and they know I did in fact finish the game.



Stats like these make interesting reading but without unique id's it isn't really useful.



But why am I assuming they do assign unique id? They have to have given unique id's to know that two people completed the game 22 times. They couldn't know that without an unique id.



As the game will provide the unique id it is probably trivial for Bioware to link the data to the registered game account if they so wish.



I don't have a problem with this though. The reason for this is dragon age and achievements. Dragon age uploads screen shots of your achievements if you want it to. Xbox and playstation track your achievements. Game makers love achievements as much as (most) users as they give them a way to see who does what and how people play. This is just an extension on the idea.



Besides which on the pc version at least there is an option to turn of upload gameplay feedback (extras/options/online)

[desala]

OP link said...

"More people played the soldier class than all of the other classes combined," [Casey Hudson] said. "If you know that, then you can start thinking about future games. Is that good? Is that a problem? Should we look at the other classes and start thinking about ways to make them selected as often as soldier? As part of asking these questions, we can design games in the future a lot better."

See, now, with the stats in hand, you get perspective.  Anecdotal evidence may say first-time players get half an hour into an infiltrator, say hell no and roll a soldier instead, just to get away from the nasty surpise that is ammo management.  But with these stats?  I totally believe it.

I'd be interested to see what were the choices of the 50% that didn't finish the game.  Were they predominantly renegade?  Vanguard?  New characters by people who had previously imported (and finished) another character?  The whole 20% who didn't use the face customization system?  You can bet Bioware is interested too.

Stats are love.

edit: format fail.  sigh.

Modifié par desala, 10 septembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Funker Shepard wrote...

The domination of the soldier class is the most worrying thing here to me, hang privacy (non-)issues and the rest.

I guess if you really want to play the game (almost totally) pause-free soldier is the easiest way to go. And it's the 'easiest' in some other ways too...."

Weapons and ammo were made more powerful than powers in ME 2. It is no wonder the soldier classes dominate in popularity with the advantage that the gun focused classes have in the game.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 10 septembre 2010 - 12:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

I play soldier for roleplaying and cutscene continuity reasons, ever since ME1. I get to play with enough tech and biotics through my squadmates.

[Lumikki]

Arijharn wrote...

But it isn't the same thing at all. Breaking into your house is something that infringes on your person and personal items, anonymous polling doesn't infringe on your person or your property. They don't take anything of yours because the game is owned by them and is licensed to you as a consumer (blame EULA).

Like I said, no information can be traced back to who you are or what you do. It doesn't know, for example, that you are Lumikki, it doesn't know what your favourite colour is or if you like Chinese food. It simply logs your decisions. 

When You install game in computer and it has something extra with it, what you did not know because you did not real eula. It's like adding virus or some spy program to your computer. This is intrussion of privacy, because everyones personal computer is as same category as someone home, it's private. When some "steals" information to gather profile behavior without peoples knowing it, it's same as someone would collect behavior data in someone house using microfons or cameras, without publishing the identify. It's break of privacy. Is the person identifyed has NOTHING to do with it, it's allready collecting private data and be inside something what is private property.

If spy-programs would not be crime, then viruses what doesn't harm people would not be crime.  It's about doing something what person wasn't aware without asking permission. When people install game to they computer then expect it to be just game, not spying and profiling they behavior as been part of test for something to study. if companies or anyone study others behavior, they should allways ask  permission to do so. Some people wants to part of this kind of stuff and some don't. It's the persons who is studied decission to make, not the one who wants the information.

Now we can argue that every person knows it, because it's in eula, but all of us know that most people will never read eula, even the company knows it. This means the company is using this it's own advance as putting something into people private computer what people aren't aware and spying them by collecting behavior data. Why they don't just ask? Because too many people whould not like it, so it's easyer for companies to do stuff behind peoples back. Like I sayed before, it's not polite behavior. Company has protected them self legaly with eula, but they aren't doing proper polite behavior related matter, what would be just asking permission.

To make you people understand this, here is better example. You have laptop and you are in you friends house with it. While you watch TV, you friend install softaware in you laptop computer what secretly send you surffing data as what web-sides you visit in this big nice study what some goverment is doing. How ever, You friend doesn't tell you that he did this or ask you permission to instal that sofware. Question is not what data it sends, but the question is did you friend has right to install that software without asking permission from you or telling you about it?

Point here is that it's not you friends decission to make behave of you as been part of some study, but your decission to make. You friend should allways ask from you, because that's right thing to do. This is because this study is now connected your private computer and you are the subject, not you friend. Others should not make decission behave others without the other knowing it. Polite behavior is just ask permission.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...

When You install game in computer and it has something extra with it, what you did not know because you did not real eula.

First of all, it is your responsibility to read the EULA and decide whether you agree to it's boundary's (i.e., you install it) or you don't (therefore, you don't agree to install it). To quote that Asari from Illium: "You humans think you can come to our world and the rules aren't good enough for you!"

It is quite simply as simple as that.

Lumikki wrote...
It's like adding virus or some spy program to your computer. This is intrussion of privacy, because everyones personal computer is as same category as someone home, it's private. When some "steals" information to gather profile behavior without peoples knowing it, it's same as someone would collect behavior data in someone house using microfons or cameras, without publishing the identify. It's break of privacy. Is the person identifyed has NOTHING to do with it, it's allready collecting private data and be inside something what is private property.

It isn't anything like a virus because profiling doesn't destroy your data, it doesn't change or modify your data it just records. If you can opt out of this service (which you can) it can hardly count as 'stealing.' Unless you live in a utopia where you can say: "Sorry thieves, but you can't steal anything from my house, because I've opted out!"

Similarly, it isn't like a spy program because spy programs are completely done without your consent (i.e., you can't opt out of it).

Unfortunately, I must reiterate once again because you seem to be failing to grasp the obvious. If no personal information is collected (i.e, BioWare doesn't know about you personally) then your analogy of sneaking in and stealing someone's camera falls short -- because a camera records you as a person, it's a physical piece of property that exists in real life and binds you as a person to the world. If this polling data for example records your xbox 360 gamertag then you'd have a point because that's recording something that identifies you in the real world (and can be traced back to who you are)

Lumikki wrote...
If spy-programs would not be crime, then viruses what doesn't harm people would not be crime.  It's about doing something what person wasn't aware without asking permission. When people install game to they computer then expect it to be just game, not spying and profiling they behavior as been part of test for something to study. if companies or anyone study others behavior, they should allways ask  permission to do so. Some people wants to part of this kind of stuff and some don't. It's the persons who is studied decission to make, not the one who wants the information.

Exactly right... which is why you can opt out...

Lumikki wrote...
Now we can argue that every person knows it, because it's in eula, but all of us know that most people will never read eula, even the company knows it.

Believe it or not, the onus is not on the company to make you read the EULA. Exercise common sense, ignorance is not an excuse.

Lumikki wrote...
This means the company is using this it's own advance as putting something into people private computer what people aren't aware and spying them by collecting behavior data. Why they don't just ask? Because too many people whould not like it, so it's easyer for companies to do stuff behind peoples back. Like I sayed before, it's not polite behavior. Company has protected them self legaly with eula, but they aren't doing proper polite behavior related matter, what would be just asking permission.

Do you know why you're frustrating? It's because you argue using circular logic. They do ask because you can opt out. If you couldn't opt out then you'd be right that it's 'impolite,' but since you are capable of opting out, then you can and thus everything is cool banana's.

An analogy; I can opt out of reading your posts, I don't however, because I wish to educate you of why you are wrong. If I couldn't opt out of reading your posts, I would go insane with rage because I'm not getting through to you of why you are wrong. However, because there is always the chance that you might have an epiphany, I continue.

[Lumikki]

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

Modifié par Lumikki, 10 septembre 2010 - 01:50 .

[SomeBug]

desala wrote...

OP link said...

"More people played the soldier class than all of the other classes combined," [Casey Hudson] said. "If you know that, then you can start thinking about future games. Is that good? Is that a problem? Should we look at the other classes and start thinking about ways to make them selected as often as soldier? As part of asking these questions, we can design games in the future a lot better."

See, now, with the stats in hand, you get perspective.  Anecdotal evidence may say first-time players get half an hour into an infiltrator, say hell no and roll a soldier instead, just to get away from the nasty surpise that is ammo management.  But with these stats?  I totally believe it.

I'd be interested to see what were the choices of the 50% that didn't finish the game.  Were they predominantly renegade?  Vanguard?  New characters by people who had previously imported (and finished) another character?  The whole 20% who didn't use the face customization system?  You can bet Bioware is interested too.

Stats are love.

edit: format fail.  sigh.

Let me lay it down for you right here.

Gauging how people play the game using this data will only result in positive benefits to everyone. Because they are not going to tailor the game based on what most people did like, they are only going to use it to change things that most people didn't like.

For example. Look at the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC. The small things made the difference. You rarely had to bypass locks, a minigame that is generally thought of by most as much worse than hacking and therefore performed much less frequently. Also you didn't have to hack/bypass wall safes or other contained so much. This improved the pacing and flow of the missions.

They also added a new biotic power, bridging the gap between the low adept subscription and the high soldier groups.

When 80% play soldier, that doesn't mean they are going to make the other classes more like soldier. They're going to make the other classes more distinct, more powerful and more interesting, to define them more.

Many fell back onto soldier because the ammunition management was annoying, a lot of the powers felt samey and not very powerful. Most enemies in the game were immune to biotics until you shot off their shields/barriers making these supposedly power-based classes still rely upon guns anyway, a mainstay of the soldier class.


Letting BioWare scrape our play data is only a good thing. We have already seen the changes and direction with the DLC packs, which have used this collected information and improved things in many ways.

People should be worries less. And ignore this idiot who doesn't understand privacy laws.

[SomeBug]

Lumikki wrote...

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

The burden falls upon the user. Sorry, you don't quite grasp what you're talking about. Go away, do some reading and come back more informed please.

[Lumikki]

SomeBug wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

The burden falls upon the user. Sorry, you don't quite grasp what you're talking about. Go away, do some reading and come back more informed please.

Legaly company is covered because EULA. How ever, morality they are using players, because company knows that most people don't read eula or find that option. So, they do leagaly right thing, but they do not do right thing what should have been just asking permission or telling people so that every they player would actually know it. It's the difference between right thing to do and legaly cover they own ass.

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

I don't think that's an excuse as you are quite capable of looking around the options yourself (at your leisure). Whether you do or don't is obviously completely up to you, but to blame BioWare for that is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

[Duckadillo]

Hmmm, the skipping convos stat bothers me as after playing the whole way through 6-7 times I really already know each characters story by heart. I didn't really need to listen to the convos every time no matter how good the dialogue was, as i knew it already. Hopefully Bioware will realize this and not make ME3 sucky and have little to no dialogue claiming "OMGPEEPSDONTWANTCONVOS!!!"

[Lumikki]

Arijharn wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

I don't think that's an excuse as you are quite capable of looking around the options yourself (at your leisure). Whether you do or don't is obviously completely up to you, but to blame BioWare for that is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

I ques it's little sad that you don't even understand the situation, but that's okey. I think that's part of the issue,  so many people or company hides so easyly they bad behavior behind law,  they don't anymore know what's right way to do something and wrong way to do something.

[CaolIla]

it would be nice if there were a question when you start the game the first time, like "Do you want us to collect statistical data?".

It's ok to put it just in the options, but not nice.

Often you don't even get to choose if you're ok with collecting the data and THAT'S just wrong.

So with Bioware we got the "Ok" Company

But they COULD do it the nice way and ask specifically.

They should just learn that having to see the Bioware and EA Logo stuff at startup without the option of skipping it (like in ME1), is a real pain and makes me hate EA just more... and creates a antipathy for Bioware.

But back to Topic: I finished the game - i guess - at least 6 or 7 times and i didn't make a single game as Soldier ; )



btw: I'm german, hate me because of our past, but not because my english is bad.

[Arijharn]

Lumikki wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Opt out requires you know the option exist, but if don't know then how you know to use you options at all. You are subject of study as long you don't know it or you accept to be part of it after you know the option, that's everyones choise. Problem isn't having option, but knowing that option exist.

I don't think that's an excuse as you are quite capable of looking around the options yourself (at your leisure). Whether you do or don't is obviously completely up to you, but to blame BioWare for that is, in my opinion, irresponsible.

I ques it's little sad that you don't even understand the situation, but that's okey. I think that's part of the issue,  so many people or company hides so easyly they bad behavior behind law,  they don't anymore know what's right way to do something and wrong way to do something.

I do understand what you're saying, I just think you're wrong simply because it's not another person's responsibility to hold your hand and point things out to you.

Look, if you go to a bank and get a loan with 12.5% interest, you can't go back to them and complain that you didn't get 6% interest if you didn't read the fine print or didn't listen to what the customer service representative said to you.

If you buy a game and decide not to look at it's options for whatever reason, you can't complain that you didn't choose an option if it's plainly laid out there for you to see, if you can be bothered looking. 

[JockBuster]

desala wrote...

OP link said...

"More people played the soldier class than all of the other classes combined," [Casey Hudson] said. "If you know that, then you can start thinking about future games. Is that good? Is that a problem? Should we look at the other classes and start thinking about ways to make them selected as often as soldier? As part of asking these questions, we can design games in the future a lot better."

See, now, with the stats in hand, you get perspective.  Anecdotal evidence may say first-time players get half an hour into an infiltrator, say hell no and roll a soldier instead, just to get away from the nasty surpise that is ammo management.  But with these stats?  I totally believe it.
I'd be interested to see what were the choices of the 50% that didn't finish the game.  Were they predominantly renegade?  Vanguard?  New characters by people who had previously imported (and finished) another character?  The whole 20% who didn't use the face customization system?  You can bet Bioware is interested too.
Stats are love.
edit: format fail.  sigh.

Soldier more that all the rest combined, simple: it is the EASIEST to play, does NOT require as much skill and has the shortest learning curve. Why do the Vanguards seem to make the most posts AND seem to be Female, dunno. Maybe because they like screaming like little girls every time they get shot?
I had at least 5 attempts at Insanity that I just quit/deleted because I got so far then got STUCK before I figured out what I was doing wrong (starting as NG+ lvl30 rather than just an ME1 import lvl5) Sentinel OR Soldier. I may have tired some other classes too and did not like the game play. Why would I keep playing something that I don't like? Last time I started an ME2 NG ME1 import, I had 61 (sixty-one) completed ME1 save games too pick from. How many ME2 games have I played, dunno, "too many." I am done playing ME2, no way. Does MY gaming affect the stats collected, YOU BET it does; is that good or bad, maybe, but then again I like the MAKO M-35 much more than the M-44. They are both FUN once you figure out their strengths and weaknesses.
I happen to LIKE the default Male Shepard's face, why change it? I did not like the custom faces and I play on an Xbox. FemShep I did change.
As to collecting the stats (remember that they are JUST numbers), we were ASKED if it was OK to collect them, it was NOT required. The purpose was to improve the gaming experience and to allocate resources to their best use and minimize wasted effort, ie most bang for the Canadian Looney & Tooney.

[Xeranx]

I don't know why this is a surprise. I didn't read the EULA at all and I knew they were collecting information from us. I know no one else who plays Mass Effect or Mass Effect 2 so there was no one to tell me that they were collecting information. In fact, I'm pretty sure I got this information right here on the forums before I pre-loaded ME2 from D2D. I don't understand what the problem is.

[Siansonea]

Sooo, people are upset that BioWare is collecting player behavior telemetry? Really? I think it's a good idea, I just hope it doesn't result in a mentality in which just because something is popular, the result in future games is more of the same. As long as it doesn't stifle creativity or encourage the company to avoid creative risks, I don't see why it would be a problem for anyone. My main concern with ME is that is would become The Tali Show even more than it already is, if they just went based off of gameplay telemetry.

[Xeranx]

JockBuster wrote...

desala wrote...

OP link said...

"More people played the soldier class than all of the other classes combined," [Casey Hudson] said. "If you know that, then you can start thinking about future games. Is that good? Is that a problem? Should we look at the other classes and start thinking about ways to make them selected as often as soldier? As part of asking these questions, we can design games in the future a lot better."

See, now, with the stats in hand, you get perspective.  Anecdotal evidence may say first-time players get half an hour into an infiltrator, say hell no and roll a soldier instead, just to get away from the nasty surpise that is ammo management.  But with these stats?  I totally believe it.
I'd be interested to see what were the choices of the 50% that didn't finish the game.  Were they predominantly renegade?  Vanguard?  New characters by people who had previously imported (and finished) another character?  The whole 20% who didn't use the face customization system?  You can bet Bioware is interested too.
Stats are love.
edit: format fail.  sigh.

Soldier more that all the rest combined, simple: it is the EASIEST to play, does NOT require as much skill and has the shortest learning curve. Why do the Vanguards seem to make the most posts AND seem to be Female, dunno. Maybe because they like screaming like little girls every time they get shot?
I had at least 5 attempts at Insanity that I just quit/deleted because I got so far then got STUCK before I figured out what I was doing wrong (starting as NG+ lvl30 rather than just an ME1 import lvl5) Sentinel OR Soldier. I may have tired some other classes too and did not like the game play. Why would I keep playing something that I don't like? Last time I started an ME2 NG ME1 import, I had 61 (sixty-one) completed ME1 save games too pick from. How many ME2 games have I played, dunno, "too many." I am done playing ME2, no way. Does MY gaming affect the stats collected, YOU BET it does; is that good or bad, maybe, but then again I like the MAKO M-35 much more than the M-44. They are both FUN once you figure out their strengths and weaknesses.
I happen to LIKE the default Male Shepard's face, why change it? I did not like the custom faces and I play on an Xbox. FemShep I did change.
As to collecting the stats (remember that they are JUST numbers), we were ASKED if it was OK to collect them, it was NOT required. The purpose was to improve the gaming experience and to allocate resources to their best use and minimize wasted effort, ie most bang for the Canadian Looney & Tooney.

It says: "Roughly 50% of the people who started Mass Effect 2 finished the game"

We have accounts with Cerberus Network.  I think a lot of people signed up for it and the stats come from there.  So I don't think it's about how many times you start a game and not finish, but actually that there were people who bought the game, started it, but never finished.  I'd be more interested in how far along they got if the metrics take that into account.  If not then we have less than half, of a certain percentage of people who bought the game and registered their Cerberus Network account, who never finished the game.  That would be pretty telling of the success of the game overall, but I don't think they'll release those numbers.

Edit: typos

Modifié par Xeranx, 10 septembre 2010 - 03:27 .